 Priority vs. Points |
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 Dec 2 2003, 04:21 AM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123  |
How'd you break your arm?
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Dec 2 2003, 04:22 AM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The build point system is easier to customize to an individual campaign, but I would use the Priority System if I, for example, did a number of archetypes to put on a web page. The build point system uses varying numbers of points, but the Priority System stays constant. My personal opinion is that the GM should probably pick one or the other for his/her campaign, simply for the sake of consistency. My own opinion is mixed. The build point system is more flexible, but there are certain character concepts that are easier to do in the Priority or Sum-to-Ten systems. BeCKS is fun, but I agree that it is not a magical munchkin cure. Still, at least you are likelier to have a combat munchkin with a few low scores for Etiquette or Stealth, rather than neglecting them entirely.
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Dec 2 2003, 04:48 AM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I lost a fight with an escalator a few weeks ago, resulting in a shattered elbow (you should see the x-rays...they're hilarious). I had to wait a week in the hospital for the doctors to be able to rebuild it, because they had to wait for parts. I felt like a used car. |
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Dec 2 2003, 05:11 AM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
They needed to install parts. Jesus.
Well, sorry to hear that. Hope you're getting a settlement or something, at least. |
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Dec 2 2003, 05:15 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Thanks. I'm definitely going to try! :D
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Dec 2 2003, 05:19 AM
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#31
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Hey, can I have some of the settlement money? I'm a poor college kid.
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Dec 2 2003, 05:28 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
But how many of us could say that?
[raises his hand] Anywho, his broken arm = his money. |
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Dec 2 2003, 06:00 AM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
gotta watch those escalators. they're crafty!
i use the point system because it's easier to squeeze every last fractional percent of an ounce out of my characters. |
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Dec 2 2003, 06:39 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 491 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 |
Here's some examples based on some of my characters and some of the SR3 book archatypes Reverse engineering the Priority choices to points and comparing them against the 123 Point standard in the SRC. My Sorcerer char, A:Resources, B:Magic, C:Attributes, D:Skills, E: Human = 133 Build Points, ten points short. Street Sam archatype = 118 Build points, 5 extra points Combat Mage archatype = 126 build points, 3 points short Adept archatype = 124 Build points, 1 short Weapon Specialist archatype = 114 Build points, 9 bonus points Street Mage archatype = 129 Build points, 6 short Ganger archtype = 115 Build points, 8 bonus points |
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Dec 2 2003, 07:18 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
I like Becks. Nothing like Pistols/Predator 1/7. :D
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Dec 2 2003, 07:25 AM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You can't do that with BeCKs. Specializations cannot exceed twice the Base Skill rating, save for the one condition of a Skill 1 (Specialization 3). It's a core rule.
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Dec 2 2003, 08:31 AM
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#37
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Resources A: 30 BP Magic B: 25 BP Attributes C: 48 BP Dwarf D: 5 BP Skills E: 27 BP Total 10: 135 Personally, I love the BP system more (and I play a rich dwarven shaman always) because: 1) 650,000. I love spells and want 50 Spell Points at char gen. I can sacrifice foci, etc, but I want to spend that 375,000 for 50 total spell points. With Priority, that leaves me trying to find a way to spend an additional 625,000... I also like to have at least 2 Force 5 Sustaining Foci for 150,000 so that leaves me with enough cash to accessorize without having to buy a limo and luxurious lifestyle. :P 2) So so so easy to adapt to your own needs, like my more-magically active campaigns where I use the Alternative BP Rules that let's you customize your magic. 3) Rich Dwarven Mages are overpowered in Priority... I don't play dwarf because the +4 attribute, I play them because I like talking in a gruff voice with a very fake sounding irish accent and talking loudly and bolsterously and making comments about finding part of last night's dinner in my beard (Ok, I come from a classic medieval fantasy genre... :P). I don't mind being 'as weak' as the rest of the group, but I also don't like people categorizing me as munchkin because I want to 'roleplay' a dwarf with 50 spell points. (PS. Using the alternative BP system, I often do a poor character even) 4) Edges/Flaws/Surge. I love these things, of course people will say I choose DualNatured to be a munchkin, but I honestly just love the concept. Unfortunately, the BP system tends to make all mundanes with 60 points of Attributes, 30 points of Resources, and remaining BP on skills and race. As the Doc says, the mundanes are almost mirrors of each other on how their BP is spent. Not that it's alot of difference in Priority (A:Resources,B:Attributes,C:Skills) or ToTen:(A:Resources,A:Attributes,C:Skills), but it tends to happen alot more with BP I think. |
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Dec 2 2003, 08:39 AM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't like groggies. How about a full mage example? :P :)
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Dec 2 2003, 09:20 AM
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#39
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Just reverse A/B, 30+25 or 20+30 is only a 5 BP difference, 130 BP. :P
Sphynx |
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Dec 2 2003, 09:38 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
That escalator sounds pretty munchy, what build system did it use? ;)
My preference is for BECKs since I feel it tends to produce much more 'realistic' characters who know a few things outside of their area of specialty. (so the combat monsters aren't choosing between guns 4, etiquette 2 or guns 6). |
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Dec 2 2003, 02:28 PM
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#41
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And yet you still end up with a magician with only 24 Attribute points and 27 Skill points. Ooh. Ahh. (And yes, for most people, 27 Skill points is pretty pathetic, Sphynx.) :) |
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Dec 2 2003, 02:29 PM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Mages can get by with 27 skill points without too much trouble. Particularly aspected mages.
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Dec 2 2003, 02:31 PM
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#43
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Pretty simple: Try to recreate any type of magician you can create with the priority system with the build point system (using the suggested 120 points) and you'll end up lacking some build point for most of them. Example: Full Magican A = 30 Human E = 0 27 Attr. B = 54 90.000¥ C = 10 30 Skillpoints D = 30 Sum in Point System = 124 Archetype directly from the core rules: Elven Street Mage: Full Magician A = 30 Elf C = 10 21 Attr. D = 42 400.000¥ B = 20 27 Skillpoints = 27 Sum in Point System = 129 The picture changes, once you start building characters that cannot be created with the priority sys [Edit]Note to myself: Never go for a coffee break[/Edit] |
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Dec 2 2003, 02:36 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And yet, despite what the Build Point system suggests, such character's aren't overpowered or inherently munchkiny.
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Dec 2 2003, 02:43 PM
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#45
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The Doc brings up a good point. Small changes in build points aren't really that significant. I always give out 128 build points, because I like powers of 2, 64 is too little, and 256 is too much. A typical 123-point character will still be on nearly an equal footing with the 128-pointer, despite the fact that the 5 points is worth nearly an entire extra skill to 6 or another level of resources (or the difference between a groggy and a mage).
~J |
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Dec 2 2003, 03:05 PM
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#46
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I agree 100%. |
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Dec 3 2003, 01:25 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
Personally, I like the point-based system because it allows the GM a tremendous amount of leeway to customize his game. Some examples:
1) In another thread, I foolishly brought up the "Why are elves so expensive and dwarves so cheap?" thing . . . <bangs head on desk> But let's suppose I'm GM'ing and I want to adjust the race costs. I can't do that with the Priority system or Sum-to-10, but with the point-based system, I can easily say Humans 0, Orks 3, Elves 6, Dwarves 9, and Trolls 12. (I don't like trolls.) 2) Let's also suppose that I want magic to be rarer and therefore more special. With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, well, who cares what I want? With the point-based system, I can make adepts cost 25, aspected magicians cost 30, and full magicians cost 35. 3) What if I don't like rich characters (because anyone with a million nuyen isn't going to buy 947,000 nuyen worth of cyberware, 53,900 nuyen worth of weapons, and a lifestyle of squatter for one month - they're going to retire to the Caymans for a few years (or decades, if they invest well))? With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, oh well. With the point-based system, I can make 0 points worth 10k, 5 worth 20k, 10 worth 40k, 15 worth 80k, 20 worth 160k, 25 worth 320k, and 30 worth 640k . . which is still a hell of a lot of cash, but the player would really have to make sacrifices to get that much. 4) On a final note, what if I want to power up or power down a character? Give a new player some advantage over the old pros? Control an unrepentant munchkin? Bring a replacement character up to speed with some experienced ones? 120, 123, 125 . . . they're just numbers, and can be adjusted at will. (So can the 30 Attribute points cap and the spell points cap, for that matter.) My point is, the point-based system in SRComp puts the GM in control of character creation, as s/he should be! Now if Azryl would only modify the campaign . . . (And, Azryl, if you go with Sum-to-10 after I made a mundane human, I'll spike your Pepsi with Ex-Lax! :P ) |
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Dec 3 2003, 01:28 AM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Resources of 1,000,000¥ doesn't necessarily mean that the character had that in cash. It is merely a measure of what he has accumulated over the years, by many different means. |
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Dec 3 2003, 01:36 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
True, but anyone who can accumulate a million nuyen over a relatively short period of time has no need to run the shadows with the rest of us. What's the average starting age of most million-nuyen characters? Where did the money come from? Who did they sell their soul to? How many enemies do they have? Why are they living in a rundown tenement when they could have afforded so much more? Some people take the time to think up answers to these questions, but how many munchkins have you met who took the million and acted like it was nothing unusual? Exact specifics of where the money comes from aside, I stand by my assertion that anyone with a million nuyen has no reason to accept a job shaking up a Barrens gang for 10,000 and all the BTL's they can carry away from the smoking ruin of the gang's headquarters . . . With the possible exception of deckers - most hackers I've met are psychotic enough that they do stupid things despite the total lack of need . . . |
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Dec 3 2003, 01:42 AM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
As much as I dislike characters built on the million nuyen premise, it can be spent in non-lopsided fashions.
All the characters I've ever seen with the million-nuyen gear allotment spent it on cyber and more cyber and didn't really justify why they had more 'ware than most cyberzombies. More accurately, I accept that there may one day be a million-nuyen character that wasn't built in a factory and soaked in spray-painted flesh tones. -Siege |
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