Call me a traditionalist but i prefer the priority system, It seems like most dumpshockers' prefer the points system,be it Becks or SRcomp. What are the pros and cons of the three character creation systems?

Never used BECKS.

I like points because of the comparitive flexibility. I think the required costs for metavariants, changeling, etc. are ridiculous, however. It also has that customizability edge.

I use Priority a lot, mostly with younger(age or experience) players.

I prefer the point system. It's got bugs, but I prefer it anyway.

I think they overcharge for b class magic users. I mean really, 20 would be much closer to reasonable than 25.

Becks is complicated and time-consuming, but nice if you don't mind that.

Priorities are good for new players, but they're so . . . channeling. For example, if you pick Priority A for magic, then you WILL have lousy attributes, skills, money, or two of three if you really screw your choices up.

I like the point-based system in SRComp, which my GM does not own and therefore does not allow . . . Hmm . . . a Christmas idea, that . . .

Hey, Azryl, that SRComp e-mail getcha thinking?

Advantages to:

Priority: I hear there are certain characters that can be made under Priority that come out at close to 130 build points or so, an advantage even with my usual 128 build point allowance. Other than that, I really can't say anything to recommend it aside from the fact that it typically takes the least time to sort out how much to allot where.

Build points: simple, flexible, compatible, beautiful. Most additions (Otaku, SURGE, edges/flaws) are written mostly for it, and as such fit in far better than any other system. My preferred system, and one that IMO makes Priority essentially obsolete for most purposes.

BeCKS: A very detailed system that tends to produce characters with lots of mid-range skills rather than a few high-level skills. Called by some the best system to combat munchkinism, I've found it to be quite munchkinable but with an eye more towards "munched generalists" who do one thing well and nearly everything else acceptably rather than people who roll salad bowls of dice for a single type of task. Just too much trouble to be worth it for me.

Sum-to-10: never used it, never seen it used, am scared of the possibilities within it.

~J

No, the request in another post, wanted to consult the sprits of dumpshock

I'm a fan of Sum-to-Ten Priorities. It's well balanced despite what the Build Point System suggests, elegant, and all but forces characters to have strengths and weaknesses. With the Build Point system, characters tend to look pretty identical within the same basic concept group (especially mundane humans).

I also like it when an Edge is countered by a Flaw and vice-versa, so with the Sum-to-Ten Priority system, that's guaranteed, whereas with BP you can get away without one or the other. I'm not a fan of Otaku or Shapeshifters, so that works nicely, and I've always treated Metahuman Variants exactly the same as Metahumans for both Priority and Build Point purposes simply because I love their flavor and they're self-balanced to begin with.

So yeah, Sum-to-Ten Priority for me when I'm GMing.

It depends on what type of character I'm making. For mundane characters I use the Build Point system. But for magical characters I use Priority cause the awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I tend to frown on Sum-to-10, only because you can be a Mundane Human and take another 10 points in Resources, Attributes, and Skills.

Can you say "Ouch?"

Priority limits far too much, you usually need just that one last skill point, and you can't do jack about it because you can't switch resources/attributes to skills.

Build Point is quite nice, but the costs for things are just a tad out there.

BeCKS is also good, but with so much math that you have to do to get to the "average" 425 point character, it's just painful.

I tend to like SR2's handling of metahumanity. Either Race A if the More Metahumans rule is not in effect (Then they get 2 Karma Pool instead of 1, as well), or Race C if it is (1 Karma Pool). That tends to keep the races all equal (Since they more or less are) and keeps everybody from being a metahuman at the same time. Joe Munchkin can't take Resources A, Attributes B, and Skills C and still be a metahuman. He has to sacrifice something (Probably skills) to be one then. Whereas in SR3, you can be either Dwarf or Ork if you go that route.

...I just read this topic as "Priority vs. Pants".

Time to sleep, I think.

~J

It's not that the BP system favors mundanes, it seems to favor mundane humans. However, that's just because mundane humans get screwed over by the priority system (since they waste the equivalent of 5 points on a null choice whereas non-mundanes, and non-humans do not).

For the rest, I've found that BeCKS leads to moderation in most things except for spell points (which are cheap) and specializations (which are the way to go for most skills under BeCKS). It is, by far, the most customizable of the systems, but also the most open to abuse.

Sum-to-10 isn't one I use, but it seems no better or worse than the others. It's somewhere between priority and BPs in terms of detail and doesn't look abusable.

Maybe it's just that the possibility of multiple As feels unbalanced.

~J

I've never heard of the sum-to-ten system, but I've played with all the rest.

BeCKs is my far the best in my book. I've seen too many players min-max they're characters with the other two. It's a bit more complex, but then again; this is shadowrun everything's a bit more complex. If you want simple system, I suggest D&D. The priority system isn't flexible, and I'd have to agree the BP system favors mundane humans. The priority system works better with the metavariants and edges flaws from SRComp.

Sum-to-Ten is in SRComp, I think it's right before Build Points.

It's in 2nd ed SRComp. 'Twas taken out in 3rd.

~J

Fair enough. Might be why I couldn't find an exact page. FanPro probably looked at it and barely refrained from ripping hair out.

Uh, that's right now I remember the sum-to-ten. It sounds simple, and a little more flexible, but I can see ways to min-max. Especially for human mundanes.

What exactly is it?

Sum to 10:
Think of priority A as 4.
Think of priority B as 3. C=2. D=1. E=0.
You get any combination of priorities that add up to 10.
So two A's, one C, and two E's add to 10.
So does three B's, a D, and an E.

Provides some variety, and allows things like Full Magician with 1,000,000 .

Ingenious...

Thanks.

How'd you break your arm?

The build point system is easier to customize to an individual campaign, but I would use the Priority System if I, for example, did a number of archetypes to put on a web page. The build point system uses varying numbers of points, but the Priority System stays constant. My personal opinion is that the GM should probably pick one or the other for his/her campaign, simply for the sake of consistency. My own opinion is mixed. The build point system is more flexible, but there are certain character concepts that are easier to do in the Priority or Sum-to-Ten systems. BeCKS is fun, but I agree that it is not a magical munchkin cure. Still, at least you are likelier to have a combat munchkin with a few low scores for Etiquette or Stealth, rather than neglecting them entirely.

They needed to install parts. Jesus.

Well, sorry to hear that. Hope you're getting a settlement or something, at least.

Thanks. I'm definitely going to try!

Hey, can I have some of the settlement money? I'm a poor college kid.

But how many of us could say that?

[raises his hand]

Anywho, his broken arm = his money.

gotta watch those escalators. they're crafty!

i use the point system because it's easier to squeeze every last fractional percent of an ounce out of my characters.

I like Becks. Nothing like Pistols/Predator 1/7.

You can't do that with BeCKs. Specializations cannot exceed twice the Base Skill rating, save for the one condition of a Skill 1 (Specialization 3). It's a core rule.

I don't like groggies. How about a full mage example?

Just reverse A/B, 30+25 or 20+30 is only a 5 BP difference, 130 BP.

Sphynx

That escalator sounds pretty munchy, what build system did it use?

My preference is for BECKs since I feel it tends to produce much more 'realistic' characters who know a few things outside of their area of specialty. (so the combat monsters aren't choosing between guns 4, etiquette 2 or guns 6).

Mages can get by with 27 skill points without too much trouble. Particularly aspected mages.

And yet, despite what the Build Point system suggests, such character's aren't overpowered or inherently munchkiny.

The Doc brings up a good point. Small changes in build points aren't really that significant. I always give out 128 build points, because I like powers of 2, 64 is too little, and 256 is too much. A typical 123-point character will still be on nearly an equal footing with the 128-pointer, despite the fact that the 5 points is worth nearly an entire extra skill to 6 or another level of resources (or the difference between a groggy and a mage).

~J

Personally, I like the point-based system because it allows the GM a tremendous amount of leeway to customize his game. Some examples:

1) In another thread, I foolishly brought up the "Why are elves so expensive and dwarves so cheap?" thing . . . <bangs head on desk> But let's suppose I'm GM'ing and I want to adjust the race costs. I can't do that with the Priority system or Sum-to-10, but with the point-based system, I can easily say Humans 0, Orks 3, Elves 6, Dwarves 9, and Trolls 12. (I don't like trolls.)

2) Let's also suppose that I want magic to be rarer and therefore more special. With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, well, who cares what I want? With the point-based system, I can make adepts cost 25, aspected magicians cost 30, and full magicians cost 35.

3) What if I don't like rich characters (because anyone with a million nuyen isn't going to buy 947,000 nuyen worth of cyberware, 53,900 nuyen worth of weapons, and a lifestyle of squatter for one month - they're going to retire to the Caymans for a few years (or decades, if they invest well))? With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, oh well. With the point-based system, I can make 0 points worth 10k, 5 worth 20k, 10 worth 40k, 15 worth 80k, 20 worth 160k, 25 worth 320k, and 30 worth 640k . . which is still a hell of a lot of cash, but the player would really have to make sacrifices to get that much.

4) On a final note, what if I want to power up or power down a character? Give a new player some advantage over the old pros? Control an unrepentant munchkin? Bring a replacement character up to speed with some experienced ones? 120, 123, 125 . . . they're just numbers, and can be adjusted at will. (So can the 30 Attribute points cap and the spell points cap, for that matter.)

My point is, the point-based system in SRComp puts the GM in control of character creation, as s/he should be!

Now if Azryl would only modify the campaign . . .

(And, Azryl, if you go with Sum-to-10 after I made a mundane human, I'll spike your Pepsi with Ex-Lax! )

As much as I dislike characters built on the million nuyen premise, it can be spent in non-lopsided fashions.

All the characters I've ever seen with the million-nuyen gear allotment spent it on cyber and more cyber and didn't really justify why they had more 'ware than most cyberzombies.

More accurately, I accept that there may one day be a million-nuyen character that wasn't built in a factory and soaked in spray-painted flesh tones.

-Siege