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Azryl
Call me a traditionalist but i prefer the priority system, It seems like most dumpshockers' prefer the points system,be it Becks or SRcomp. What are the pros and cons of the three character creation systems?
moosegod
Never used BECKS.

I like points because of the comparitive flexibility. I think the required costs for metavariants, changeling, etc. are ridiculous, however. It also has that customizability edge.

I use Priority a lot, mostly with younger(age or experience) players.
Fortune
QUOTE (Azryl)
...the three character creation systems?

You forgot Sum-to-10. smile.gif
Bearclaw
I prefer the point system. It's got bugs, but I prefer it anyway.

I think they overcharge for b class magic users. I mean really, 20 would be much closer to reasonable than 25.
Chodav
Becks is complicated and time-consuming, but nice if you don't mind that.

Priorities are good for new players, but they're so . . . channeling. For example, if you pick Priority A for magic, then you WILL have lousy attributes, skills, money, or two of three if you really screw your choices up.

I like the point-based system in SRComp, which my GM does not own and therefore does not allow . . . Hmm . . . a Christmas idea, that . . .

Hey, Azryl, that SRComp e-mail getcha thinking? wink.gif
Kagetenshi
Advantages to:

Priority: I hear there are certain characters that can be made under Priority that come out at close to 130 build points or so, an advantage even with my usual 128 build point allowance. Other than that, I really can't say anything to recommend it aside from the fact that it typically takes the least time to sort out how much to allot where.

Build points: simple, flexible, compatible, beautiful. Most additions (Otaku, SURGE, edges/flaws) are written mostly for it, and as such fit in far better than any other system. My preferred system, and one that IMO makes Priority essentially obsolete for most purposes.

BeCKS: A very detailed system that tends to produce characters with lots of mid-range skills rather than a few high-level skills. Called by some the best system to combat munchkinism, I've found it to be quite munchkinable but with an eye more towards "munched generalists" who do one thing well and nearly everything else acceptably rather than people who roll salad bowls of dice for a single type of task. Just too much trouble to be worth it for me.

Sum-to-10: never used it, never seen it used, am scared of the possibilities within it.

~J
Azryl
No, the request in another post, wanted to consult the sprits of dumpshock
Ol' Scratch
I'm a fan of Sum-to-Ten Priorities. It's well balanced despite what the Build Point System suggests, elegant, and all but forces characters to have strengths and weaknesses. With the Build Point system, characters tend to look pretty identical within the same basic concept group (especially mundane humans).

I also like it when an Edge is countered by a Flaw and vice-versa, so with the Sum-to-Ten Priority system, that's guaranteed, whereas with BP you can get away without one or the other. I'm not a fan of Otaku or Shapeshifters, so that works nicely, and I've always treated Metahuman Variants exactly the same as Metahumans for both Priority and Build Point purposes simply because I love their flavor and they're self-balanced to begin with.

So yeah, Sum-to-Ten Priority for me when I'm GMing.
Catsnightmare
It depends on what type of character I'm making. For mundane characters I use the Build Point system. But for magical characters I use Priority cause the awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.
Fortune
QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2003, 01:24 PM)
...awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.
Tanka
I tend to frown on Sum-to-10, only because you can be a Mundane Human and take another 10 points in Resources, Attributes, and Skills.

Can you say "Ouch?"

Priority limits far too much, you usually need just that one last skill point, and you can't do jack about it because you can't switch resources/attributes to skills.

Build Point is quite nice, but the costs for things are just a tad out there.

BeCKS is also good, but with so much math that you have to do to get to the "average" 425 point character, it's just painful.

I tend to like SR2's handling of metahumanity. Either Race A if the More Metahumans rule is not in effect (Then they get 2 Karma Pool instead of 1, as well), or Race C if it is (1 Karma Pool). That tends to keep the races all equal (Since they more or less are) and keeps everybody from being a metahuman at the same time. Joe Munchkin can't take Resources A, Attributes B, and Skills C and still be a metahuman. He has to sacrifice something (Probably skills) to be one then. Whereas in SR3, you can be either Dwarf or Ork if you go that route.
Kagetenshi
...I just read this topic as "Priority vs. Pants".

Time to sleep, I think.

~J
TinkerGnome
It's not that the BP system favors mundanes, it seems to favor mundane humans. However, that's just because mundane humans get screwed over by the priority system (since they waste the equivalent of 5 points on a null choice whereas non-mundanes, and non-humans do not).

For the rest, I've found that BeCKS leads to moderation in most things except for spell points (which are cheap) and specializations (which are the way to go for most skills under BeCKS). It is, by far, the most customizable of the systems, but also the most open to abuse.

Sum-to-10 isn't one I use, but it seems no better or worse than the others. It's somewhere between priority and BPs in terms of detail and doesn't look abusable.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (tanka)
I tend to frown on Sum-to-10, only because you can be a Mundane Human and take another 10 points in Resources, Attributes, and Skills.

Can you say "Ouch?"

A Skills, A Attributes, C Resources, E Race, E Magic = 125 Build Points
A Skills, B Attributes, B Resources, E Race, E Magic = 124 Build Points
A Attributes, B Resources, B Skills, E Race, E Magic = 120 Build Points
A Resources, A Attributes, C Skills, E Race, E Magic = 114 Build Points

Average of those four: 120.75 Build Points. Yeah, "ouch." smile.gif
Kagetenshi
Maybe it's just that the possibility of multiple As feels unbalanced.

~J
6thDragon
I've never heard of the sum-to-ten system, but I've played with all the rest.

BeCKs is my far the best in my book. I've seen too many players min-max they're characters with the other two. It's a bit more complex, but then again; this is shadowrun everything's a bit more complex. If you want simple system, I suggest D&D. The priority system isn't flexible, and I'd have to agree the BP system favors mundane humans. The priority system works better with the metavariants and edges flaws from SRComp.
Tanka
Sum-to-Ten is in SRComp, I think it's right before Build Points.
Kagetenshi
It's in 2nd ed SRComp. 'Twas taken out in 3rd.

~J
Tanka
Fair enough. Might be why I couldn't find an exact page. FanPro probably looked at it and barely refrained from ripping hair out.
Fortune
QUOTE (tanka)
FanPro probably looked at it and barely refrained from ripping hair out.

I doubt it, considering the SR3 Companion was originally produced by FASA.
6thDragon
Uh, that's right now I remember the sum-to-ten. It sounds simple, and a little more flexible, but I can see ways to min-max. Especially for human mundanes.
Fresno Bob
What exactly is it?
RedmondLarry
Sum to 10:
Think of priority A as 4.
Think of priority B as 3. C=2. D=1. E=0.
You get any combination of priorities that add up to 10.
So two A's, one C, and two E's add to 10.
So does three B's, a D, and an E.

Provides some variety, and allows things like Full Magician with 1,000,000 nuyen.gif.
Fresno Bob
Ingenious...

Thanks.
Fortune
QUOTE (Voorhees @ Dec 2 2003, 03:05 PM)
What exactly is it?

Simply the Priority system with a twist.

The Priorities are translated into numbers as follows:

A = 4
B = 3
C = 2
D = 1
E = 0

Then simply assign the catagories so that they add up to 10. For example, a mundane human gun-bunny might choose Resourses A (costing 4), Attributes B (costing 3), Skills B (still costing 3), and Race and Magic E (costing ) each), which when added together comes to 10, hence the name. smile.gif

Edit: Took me a while to type with my broken arm, so I'll leave it up even if it's a little late. nyahnyah.gif
Zazen
How'd you break your arm?
Glyph
The build point system is easier to customize to an individual campaign, but I would use the Priority System if I, for example, did a number of archetypes to put on a web page. The build point system uses varying numbers of points, but the Priority System stays constant. My personal opinion is that the GM should probably pick one or the other for his/her campaign, simply for the sake of consistency. My own opinion is mixed. The build point system is more flexible, but there are certain character concepts that are easier to do in the Priority or Sum-to-Ten systems. BeCKS is fun, but I agree that it is not a magical munchkin cure. Still, at least you are likelier to have a combat munchkin with a few low scores for Etiquette or Stealth, rather than neglecting them entirely.
Fortune
QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 2 2003, 03:21 PM)
How'd you break your arm?

I lost a fight with an escalator a few weeks ago, resulting in a shattered elbow (you should see the x-rays...they're hilarious). I had to wait a week in the hospital for the doctors to be able to rebuild it, because they had to wait for parts. I felt like a used car.
Zazen
They needed to install parts. Jesus.

Well, sorry to hear that. Hope you're getting a settlement or something, at least.
Fortune
Thanks. I'm definitely going to try! biggrin.gif
Tanka
Hey, can I have some of the settlement money? I'm a poor college kid.
Dende
But how many of us could say that?

[raises his hand]

Anywho, his broken arm = his money.
mfb
gotta watch those escalators. they're crafty!

i use the point system because it's easier to squeeze every last fractional percent of an ounce out of my characters.
Catsnightmare
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2003, 01:24 PM)
...awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Here's some examples based on some of my characters and some of the SR3 book archatypes

Reverse engineering the Priority choices to points and comparing them against the 123 Point standard in the SRC.

My Sorcerer char, A:Resources, B:Magic, C:Attributes, D:Skills, E: Human = 133 Build Points, ten points short.
Street Sam archatype = 118 Build points, 5 extra points
Combat Mage archatype = 126 build points, 3 points short
Adept archatype = 124 Build points, 1 short
Weapon Specialist archatype = 114 Build points, 9 bonus points
Street Mage archatype = 129 Build points, 6 short
Ganger archtype = 115 Build points, 8 bonus points
Diesel
I like Becks. Nothing like Pistols/Predator 1/7. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
You can't do that with BeCKs. Specializations cannot exceed twice the Base Skill rating, save for the one condition of a Skill 1 (Specialization 3). It's a core rule.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2003, 01:24 PM)
...awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Resources A: 30 BP
Magic B: 25 BP
Attributes C: 48 BP
Dwarf D: 5 BP
Skills E: 27 BP
Total 10: 135

Personally, I love the BP system more (and I play a rich dwarven shaman always) because:
1) 650,000. I love spells and want 50 Spell Points at char gen. I can sacrifice foci, etc, but I want to spend that 375,000 for 50 total spell points. With Priority, that leaves me trying to find a way to spend an additional 625,000... I also like to have at least 2 Force 5 Sustaining Foci for 150,000 so that leaves me with enough cash to accessorize without having to buy a limo and luxurious lifestyle. nyahnyah.gif

2) So so so easy to adapt to your own needs, like my more-magically active campaigns where I use the Alternative BP Rules that let's you customize your magic.

3) Rich Dwarven Mages are overpowered in Priority... I don't play dwarf because the +4 attribute, I play them because I like talking in a gruff voice with a very fake sounding irish accent and talking loudly and bolsterously and making comments about finding part of last night's dinner in my beard (Ok, I come from a classic medieval fantasy genre... nyahnyah.gif). I don't mind being 'as weak' as the rest of the group, but I also don't like people categorizing me as munchkin because I want to 'roleplay' a dwarf with 50 spell points. (PS. Using the alternative BP system, I often do a poor character even)

4) Edges/Flaws/Surge. I love these things, of course people will say I choose DualNatured to be a munchkin, but I honestly just love the concept.

Unfortunately, the BP system tends to make all mundanes with 60 points of Attributes, 30 points of Resources, and remaining BP on skills and race. As the Doc says, the mundanes are almost mirrors of each other on how their BP is spent. Not that it's alot of difference in Priority (A:Resources,B:Attributes,C:Skills) or ToTen:(A:Resources,A:Attributes,C:Skills), but it tends to happen alot more with BP I think.

Fortune
I don't like groggies. How about a full mage example? nyahnyah.gif smile.gif
Sphynx
Just reverse A/B, 30+25 or 20+30 is only a 5 BP difference, 130 BP. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Crusher Bob
That escalator sounds pretty munchy, what build system did it use? wink.gif

My preference is for BECKs since I feel it tends to produce much more 'realistic' characters who know a few things outside of their area of specialty. (so the combat monsters aren't choosing between guns 4, etiquette 2 or guns 6).
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Just reverse A/B, 30+25 or 20+30 is only a 5 BP difference, 130 BP. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx

And yet you still end up with a magician with only 24 Attribute points and 27 Skill points. Ooh. Ahh. (And yes, for most people, 27 Skill points is pretty pathetic, Sphynx.) smile.gif
TinkerGnome
Mages can get by with 27 skill points without too much trouble. Particularly aspected mages.
Cochise
QUOTE (Fortune)
I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Pretty simple:
Try to recreate any type of magician you can create with the priority system with the build point system (using the suggested 120 points) and you'll end up lacking some build point for most of them.

Example:
Full Magican A = 30
Human E = 0
27 Attr. B = 54
90.000 C = 10
30 Skillpoints D = 30

Sum in Point System = 124

Archetype directly from the core rules:

Elven Street Mage:
Full Magician A = 30
Elf C = 10
21 Attr. D = 42
400.000 B = 20
27 Skillpoints = 27

Sum in Point System = 129

The picture changes, once you start building characters that cannot be created with the priority sys

[Edit]Note to myself: Never go for a coffee break[/Edit]
Ol' Scratch
And yet, despite what the Build Point system suggests, such character's aren't overpowered or inherently munchkiny.
Kagetenshi
The Doc brings up a good point. Small changes in build points aren't really that significant. I always give out 128 build points, because I like powers of 2, 64 is too little, and 256 is too much. A typical 123-point character will still be on nearly an equal footing with the 128-pointer, despite the fact that the 5 points is worth nearly an entire extra skill to 6 or another level of resources (or the difference between a groggy and a mage).

~J
Sphynx
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
And yet, despite what the Build Point system suggests, such character's aren't overpowered or inherently munchkiny.

I agree 100%.
Chodav
Personally, I like the point-based system because it allows the GM a tremendous amount of leeway to customize his game. Some examples:

1) In another thread, I foolishly brought up the "Why are elves so expensive and dwarves so cheap?" thing . . . <bangs head on desk> But let's suppose I'm GM'ing and I want to adjust the race costs. I can't do that with the Priority system or Sum-to-10, but with the point-based system, I can easily say Humans 0, Orks 3, Elves 6, Dwarves 9, and Trolls 12. (I don't like trolls.)

2) Let's also suppose that I want magic to be rarer and therefore more special. With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, well, who cares what I want? With the point-based system, I can make adepts cost 25, aspected magicians cost 30, and full magicians cost 35.

3) What if I don't like rich characters (because anyone with a million nuyen isn't going to buy 947,000 nuyen worth of cyberware, 53,900 nuyen worth of weapons, and a lifestyle of squatter for one month - they're going to retire to the Caymans for a few years (or decades, if they invest well))? With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, oh well. With the point-based system, I can make 0 points worth 10k, 5 worth 20k, 10 worth 40k, 15 worth 80k, 20 worth 160k, 25 worth 320k, and 30 worth 640k . . which is still a hell of a lot of cash, but the player would really have to make sacrifices to get that much.

4) On a final note, what if I want to power up or power down a character? Give a new player some advantage over the old pros? Control an unrepentant munchkin? Bring a replacement character up to speed with some experienced ones? 120, 123, 125 . . . they're just numbers, and can be adjusted at will. (So can the 30 Attribute points cap and the spell points cap, for that matter.)

My point is, the point-based system in SRComp puts the GM in control of character creation, as s/he should be!

Now if Azryl would only modify the campaign . . .

(And, Azryl, if you go with Sum-to-10 after I made a mundane human, I'll spike your Pepsi with Ex-Lax! nyahnyah.gif )
Fortune
QUOTE (Chodav @ Dec 3 2003, 12:25 PM)
...because anyone with a million nuyen isn't going to buy 947,000 nuyen worth of cyberware, 53,900 nuyen worth of weapons, and a lifestyle of squatter for one month - they're going to retire to the Caymans for a few years or decades, if they invest well...

Resources of 1,000,000 doesn't necessarily mean that the character had that in cash. It is merely a measure of what he has accumulated over the years, by many different means.
Chodav
QUOTE (Fortune)
Resources of 1,000,000 doesn't necessarily mean that the character had that in cash. It is merely a measure of what he has accumulated over the years, by many different means.

True, but anyone who can accumulate a million nuyen over a relatively short period of time has no need to run the shadows with the rest of us. What's the average starting age of most million-nuyen characters? Where did the money come from? Who did they sell their soul to? How many enemies do they have? Why are they living in a rundown tenement when they could have afforded so much more?

Some people take the time to think up answers to these questions, but how many munchkins have you met who took the million and acted like it was nothing unusual?

Exact specifics of where the money comes from aside, I stand by my assertion that anyone with a million nuyen has no reason to accept a job shaking up a Barrens gang for 10,000 and all the BTL's they can carry away from the smoking ruin of the gang's headquarters . . .

With the possible exception of deckers - most hackers I've met are psychotic enough that they do stupid things despite the total lack of need . . .
Siege
As much as I dislike characters built on the million nuyen premise, it can be spent in non-lopsided fashions.

All the characters I've ever seen with the million-nuyen gear allotment spent it on cyber and more cyber and didn't really justify why they had more 'ware than most cyberzombies.

More accurately, I accept that there may one day be a million-nuyen character that wasn't built in a factory and soaked in spray-painted flesh tones.

-Siege
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