Spirits, New Character Options

[Zolhex]

I started to flesh out a character today and ran into a question.

I am making a magical character and was woundering is it legal to use spell points like karma?

For foci and what not.

Next I thought that spirits required karma to be bound but I find nothing on this.

Next do conjurers get the spell points that come with being an aspected magician?

Lastly if you can use spell points as karma is it also useable as karma for the costs of putting together an ally spirit?

Please remember though I am looking to get clarification on the rules as they appear in the books. This has to be a by the book character.

Thanks in advance.

[mfb]

you can use spell points as karma for magic type stuff, yes, according to... MitS? i think it's MitS. yes, conjurors get the spell points. no, spirits don't cost karma unless you're binding them to a site to guard for a year; in this case, i believe it's 1 karma per force point.

[Azryl]

Yes, you may spend spell points as if they were karma.

[mfb]

right, but only for magic stuff--foci, spirits, yadda yadda. you can't raise your Str, or buy a few more points of Pistols.

[Catsnightmare]

That depends. IIRC there is an option in the Shadowrun Companion that allows you to trade in Spell Points to Build Points at a 5 = 1 ratio. Though my SRC is on loan at the moment and not available to me to confirm.

[RedmondLarry]

Spending initial Spell Points as if were Karma, for initiation or ally spirits, is described in Shadowrun Companion, p. 15, under "Resources". It's an optional rule -- the GM may allow it if he wishes. A GM who allows it should set their own limit on what the Spell Points may be used for, as the rule indicates the Karma may be spent for "... and so on."

Yes, the Shadowrun Companion, p. 14 "Magic", provides for buying more Spell force Points at 25,000 :nuyen: per point, or trading in 5 Spell force Points for 1 Build Point.

[Fortune]

[mfb]

*snort* i wouldn't even call that an opinion. "i think i'll blow the equivalent of 20,000 nuyen or 40 karma on a force 5 spirit that i could otherwise whip up with a complex action and a headache!"

[Dende]

Well 20,000 nuyen or 40 karma for something that costs A LOT and then gives you a headache, potentially only getting one or no successes...so maybe the spirit owes you no favors anyway.

[Fortune]

Come to think of it, I believe that it's 1 Spell Point per Force plus 1 Spell Point per service owed. Even worse!

[moosegod]

It's not even worth thinking about for a shaman, and hardly worth it for a mage.

[Abstruse]

Doesn't matter if you're an aspected conjurer. I mean what the hell else are you going to use the spell points on other than bonding foci?

The Abstruse One

[Sphynx]

Level of Initiation and Invoking would be good, though I think you discard bonding foci too quickly, that's just as good and either are a thousand+ times better than on a spirit at char-gen (that you could just as easily conjure post-char-gen).

Sphynx

[Saintgrimm]

What page is Invoking on? I am assuming it is in MiTS. I couldn't seem to find it.

[RedmondLarry]

The Table of Contents and Index both say Invoking is MitS p. 75.

[Saintgrimm]

Imagine me dumb... oh wait, that's not a stretch. LOL
Thanks.

[RedmondLarry]

Yeah, Saintgrimm. Since I know I look pretty dumb sometimes too, I know how you feel.

[Lilt]

As several other people have said already, buying spirits at acharacter creation is somewhat pointless (unless you are a conjurer). And yes, conjurers do get 35 spell points to bind spirits/foci with.

Also: from your statement that the character has to be by the book, it should probably be pointed-out that it says nowhere in the book that you can initiate at character creation. Some GM's allow it anyway though, you'd be best asking your GM about that.

[Zolhex]

Ok for those with the question yes I'm making a conjurer.

First let me say thanks to all for your help.

Second it seems that there is a karma cost for starting with spirits can someone give the book & page where this is found please.

Now as to optional rules I can not use them as this character is being made in referance to being playable in Shadowrun Missions at conventions. so while allowed to goto other books for info on gear magic and so on I have to stick to the basic rules. but thanks for the suggestions I may use some of them in other games if allowed or may allow them in my games.

Lastly I have found nothing that says you can't start with an ally is this true? I mean 35 spell points makes for a nice level 4-6 ally to start the game with. (any views on this bitrunner? For those who don't know bitrunner is the main GM for my area as far as Missions go.) So the question is start with an ally or go with pre conjured spirits?

[Fortune]

[Lilt]

There are a number of views on wether or not it's possible to start the game with an ally. On the positive side: For one they are spirits, and you can bond spirits using starting spell points. Also spell points are kindof like karma, and some people just let you use it as such for anything but buying attributes and skills)

On the down side: Using the standard rules to buy an ally spirit would cost an infinite amount of spell points (1 per service on something that owes you an infinite number of services. The karma you spend creating ally spirits is not used to bond them but to create them.

I'd personally advise you to reconsider the choice of going conjuerer, not being able to cast spells is a bitch. Also: As ally spirits get your sorcery skill to start-off with (and a spell from your spell list): If you don't have the sorcery skill and any spells you'll be missing-out on a fair bit of the ally's power.

[Zolhex]

[Lilt]

Heh. You'd probably be better taking a power focus (both karma and cash wise) rather than a set of low-force spirit foci.

Also: Is your conjurer a hermetic, yes? Power foci are great in that case as they let you summon more powerful spirits without needing to worry about physical drain. And if you only use power foci then focus addiction is 1260k :nuyen: and 60 karma away. Not something your character would be likely to encounter. Make sure you take the talismongering knowledge skill too as then you can make ritual materials more cheaply.

If I was to go the conjurer way I'd probably be sure to get a force 6 power focus (and maybe another force 2 one for good measure).

[edit] You may want to re-read the focus addiction rules. You could quite happily own a force 12 focus but never use it, or a group of force 3 foci but only use one of them at a time, and never worry about focus addiction. Focus addiction is based on the number of foci you have active at the time, not the number you own, or even carry.

[Fortune]

[Zolhex]