I started to flesh out a character today and ran into a question.

I am making a magical character and was woundering is it legal to use spell points like karma?

For foci and what not.

Next I thought that spirits required karma to be bound but I find nothing on this.

Next do conjurers get the spell points that come with being an aspected magician?

Lastly if you can use spell points as karma is it also useable as karma for the costs of putting together an ally spirit?

Please remember though I am looking to get clarification on the rules as they appear in the books. This has to be a by the book character.

Thanks in advance.

you can use spell points as karma for magic type stuff, yes, according to... MitS? i think it's MitS. yes, conjurors get the spell points. no, spirits don't cost karma unless you're binding them to a site to guard for a year; in this case, i believe it's 1 karma per force point.

Yes, you may spend spell points as if they were karma.

right, but only for magic stuff--foci, spirits, yadda yadda. you can't raise your Str, or buy a few more points of Pistols.

That depends. IIRC there is an option in the Shadowrun Companion that allows you to trade in Spell Points to Build Points at a 5 = 1 ratio. Though my SRC is on loan at the moment and not available to me to confirm.

Spending initial Spell Points as if were Karma, for initiation or ally spirits, is described in Shadowrun Companion, p. 15, under "Resources". It's an optional rule -- the GM may allow it if he wishes. A GM who allows it should set their own limit on what the Spell Points may be used for, as the rule indicates the Karma may be spent for "... and so on."

Yes, the Shadowrun Companion, p. 14 "Magic", provides for buying more Spell force Points at 25,000 per point, or trading in 5 Spell force Points for 1 Build Point.

*snort* i wouldn't even call that an opinion. "i think i'll blow the equivalent of 20,000 nuyen or 40 karma on a force 5 spirit that i could otherwise whip up with a complex action and a headache!"

Well 20,000 nuyen or 40 karma for something that costs A LOT and then gives you a headache, potentially only getting one or no successes...so maybe the spirit owes you no favors anyway.

Come to think of it, I believe that it's 1 Spell Point per Force plus 1 Spell Point per service owed. Even worse!

It's not even worth thinking about for a shaman, and hardly worth it for a mage.

Doesn't matter if you're an aspected conjurer. I mean what the hell else are you going to use the spell points on other than bonding foci?

The Abstruse One

Level of Initiation and Invoking would be good, though I think you discard bonding foci too quickly, that's just as good and either are a thousand+ times better than on a spirit at char-gen (that you could just as easily conjure post-char-gen).

Sphynx

What page is Invoking on? I am assuming it is in MiTS. I couldn't seem to find it.

The Table of Contents and Index both say Invoking is MitS p. 75.

Imagine me dumb... oh wait, that's not a stretch. LOL
Thanks.

Yeah, Saintgrimm. Since I know I look pretty dumb sometimes too, I know how you feel.

As several other people have said already, buying spirits at acharacter creation is somewhat pointless (unless you are a conjurer). And yes, conjurers do get 35 spell points to bind spirits/foci with.

Also: from your statement that the character has to be by the book, it should probably be pointed-out that it says nowhere in the book that you can initiate at character creation. Some GM's allow it anyway though, you'd be best asking your GM about that.

Ok for those with the question yes I'm making a conjurer.

First let me say thanks to all for your help.

Second it seems that there is a karma cost for starting with spirits can someone give the book & page where this is found please.

Now as to optional rules I can not use them as this character is being made in referance to being playable in Shadowrun Missions at conventions. so while allowed to goto other books for info on gear magic and so on I have to stick to the basic rules. but thanks for the suggestions I may use some of them in other games if allowed or may allow them in my games.

Lastly I have found nothing that says you can't start with an ally is this true? I mean 35 spell points makes for a nice level 4-6 ally to start the game with. (any views on this bitrunner? For those who don't know bitrunner is the main GM for my area as far as Missions go.) So the question is start with an ally or go with pre conjured spirits?

There are a number of views on wether or not it's possible to start the game with an ally. On the positive side: For one they are spirits, and you can bond spirits using starting spell points. Also spell points are kindof like karma, and some people just let you use it as such for anything but buying attributes and skills)

On the down side: Using the standard rules to buy an ally spirit would cost an infinite amount of spell points (1 per service on something that owes you an infinite number of services. The karma you spend creating ally spirits is not used to bond them but to create them.

I'd personally advise you to reconsider the choice of going conjuerer, not being able to cast spells is a bitch. Also: As ally spirits get your sorcery skill to start-off with (and a spell from your spell list): If you don't have the sorcery skill and any spells you'll be missing-out on a fair bit of the ally's power.

Heh. You'd probably be better taking a power focus (both karma and cash wise) rather than a set of low-force spirit foci.

Also: Is your conjurer a hermetic, yes? Power foci are great in that case as they let you summon more powerful spirits without needing to worry about physical drain. And if you only use power foci then focus addiction is 1260k and 60 karma away. Not something your character would be likely to encounter. Make sure you take the talismongering knowledge skill too as then you can make ritual materials more cheaply.

If I was to go the conjurer way I'd probably be sure to get a force 6 power focus (and maybe another force 2 one for good measure).

[edit] You may want to re-read the focus addiction rules. You could quite happily own a force 12 focus but never use it, or a group of force 3 foci but only use one of them at a time, and never worry about focus addiction. Focus addiction is based on the number of foci you have active at the time, not the number you own, or even carry.

shamanic conjurors are badass. you people don't understand the true power of the dark side.

EOTLF, get T:Awakened Lands. Channelling is teh bom. the drain sucks, sure, but you don't have to worry about that until you've finished salting the earth that covers the mutilated corpses of your enemies.

Shamanic conjurors are pretty badass... they do need invoking to work well though. An insanely high charisma (8, if not 10) also lets you summon higher force spirits without taking drain.

A balanced shamanic conjuror would be even better advised to buy power foci (over spirit foci) as there are 14 types of nature spirits. (a starting character couldn't even buy & bond 14 force 1 spirit foci, let-alone summon 14 spirits before the pools all refresh).

Channeling is a power that has a nasty drawback (well: spirit's force(D) drain) but makes your character more powerful while you're using it (you can use the spirit's powers indefinitely and you add the spirit's force to your physical attributes). You get immunity to normal weapons at the spirit's force too if it's a great-form spirit.

A character with charisma 12, channeling, a force 6 great-form storm spirit, and a trauma dampener could lay-waste to an army in about 6-12 seconds.

Ok here is what I came up with:

A-Resources-Bought some clothes & armor nothing to big 4/2 coat. bought some lifestyles 1 high for 2 years (where I live) modified basement with 40k 10k per area to be set up for each element, 3 middle for 1 year (meet locations), 5 low for 1 year (safehouses) stocked all but high with 1100 in food (non-perishable). A level 10 conjuring library, ally conjuring materials level 4, elemental summoning materials level 4 x 16. a couple of cred sticks (helps to have an ID or three to fall back on. A pred. 3, some clips, ammo, & con. holster. A vehicle gmc bulldog security.

B-Aspected

C-Race-Elf

D-Attributes-B 1, Q 2, S 1, C 8, I 6, W 6, E 6, M 6. Crappy physicals but easy to raise. Maxed cha. as long as i stay to 4 or less on spirits it's only a light drain pass or fail I'm still awake and have control.

E-Skills-Conjuring 6 Summoning 7, Stealth 6, Etiquette 4, Pistols 3 heavy 4, Negotiations 4, Cooking 4.

Starting with 8 elementals 2 per element

So there you go what do you think please be gentle

Gentile? You a jew?

Just kidding.

Can't you only bind a number of spirits= to your charisma?

Sorry, forgot the elfness.

Hmm. It strikes me that your character is planning for the future a bit too much... 2 years pre-bought for a lifestyle? That's a long time. I don't think I've ever seen someone take a high lifestyle that long. 240K of starting cash has so many more useful applications. Most characters prefer to pay for their lifestyles a coupple of months at a time as they never know when lonestar/some corp-hired team is going to come knocking on their door.

Also: technically the rating 10 library is beyond what is available to starting characters (rating 6).

Now: Does the character have the talismongering skill and a kit to use it with? With that you could easily quarter the cost of creating ritual materials for summoning elementals (given only a little downtime). You can also give the talismongering skill to your ally (when you make one) so it can make the materials as you do runs.

I also strongly advise you to invest in a few force-worth of power foci. Right now your character can summon piddly little spirits (force 4 being trivial) quite easily but if you ever try to summon even a force 7 spirit you'll probably take moderate physical drain.

"But I can get far more services from a force 4 spirit" you respond? Consider then the fact that a force 4 elemental is good for some tasks, but vulnerable to almost any heavy pistol on the street. Enemy mages, also, would find it a sinch to take-out by banishing or with a single mannaball or stunball. A force 4 elemental is also fairly weak in attack, rolling 4-9 dice including pool. An air elemental's noxious breath power would probably do a moderate or light wound.

Now consider a force 10 elemental. With a bit of talismongering you can take the cost down to around 2.5k (depending on what your GM lets you use as the base materials). Rolling 13 dice (7 skill+6 focus) it is reasonable to expect a success at TN 10. A force 10 elemental may be a fairly one-shot deal (unless you get lucky) but it is also a completely unstoppable killing machine. Not even assault cannons, anti-tank weapons, or even light railguns can stop it. Mages attempting to attack it had better be prepared to hit TN 10 mor times than the spirit hits their spell rating in a resistance test too. Lastly: they can roll anything from 16 to 21 dice in melee combat... Only adepts can hope to match that. The noxious breath power is almost definately going to do serious damage. Only a character with willpower or body at around 24 could expect to stage it to even moderate

Now I'm not saying that you'd want to use this kind of power every day, but it seems a good idea to leave it as an option for your character. It also takes a long time to amass the karma and cash to buy & bond a power focus in game, and you'll be wanting to use those resources to buy materials, initiate, and summon an ally too.

Sorry. I do tend to rant.

[edit]Oh yes, and a force 6 power focus almost doubbles the number of successes you can expect from your 'piddly' force 2 elementals. I made a coupple of typo corrections with edits too.[/edit]

This is why trolls make great summoners. Their massive body just shunts the problems away!

Umm... What do you mean? Trolls make terrible conjurors.

You summon up spirits beyond your charisma, accept the physical drain and just magic it way with your fistfuls of dice.

Physical drain is still resisted with charisma though.

It is?

Oh, drek.

No worries. I thought that too at one point. It was during a discussion I had with my local game store owner that he set me right.

Not that I doubt you, but you have a page ref for this?

I wanna know if I'm doing anything else wrong.

It's not truly stated explicitly, but under Drain on page 162, SR3 it states that conjuring drain is resisted with charisma. It also describes how in some cases drain can do physical damage. The key is that it's still conjuring drain, so you still resist it with charisma even though it does physical damage rather than stun.

Also, at the top of page 188 after conjuring drain (wraps over page from 187), it says to "Use Charisma dice" with no mention of body anywhere.

It also makes more sense this way, and it's (AFAIK) the canon oppinion. (I don't mean to dictate canon though, correct me if you disagree and back me up if you do)

But you still resist over-powered spells with body, right?

eg. Force 8 with magic 6.

OK here's a conjurer knocked-up to my personal specification He may be slightly different from your one as you seem to be putting great import on balancing the elements exactly.

Resources A: 1,000,000
Rating 6 power focus
5 spell points
Rating 6 Conjuring Library
Rating 6 Hermetic Circle
Talismongering kit (10K)
Lifestyle designed using the Sprawl survival guide (middle with luxury space luxury security, and a Manaline (GM willing)) 10855 /month, paid for 2 months.
Bolt-hole Low lifestyle (2 months)
GMC Bulldog Sec.
Browning Ultra Power + Ammo +holster (~1K)
Clothing & armour (~3.5k including FFBA, everyone needs FFBA )
A coupple of cred stick with liscences for stuff I have.
60k left to buy some ritual materials, some raw enchanting materials, and a coupple of contacts.

B: Magic (Conjuror)
41 Spell points
30 Bonding power focus
10 Force 6 Fire elemental oweing 2 services.
(Just Re-read the rules- 2 SPELL POINTS PER SERVICE? WTF?)

C: Race: Elf

D: attributes
B: 1
Q: 2
S: 1
C: 8
I: 6
W: 6
(EWW: This character would die if you sneezed at it. Remember that your choice to buy attributes up later will slow your character down when initiating. Wearing armour with a ballistic rating more than 2 points higher than your quickness will also lower your combat pool. Perhaps consider lowering intelligence which isn't that important for conjurers?)

E: Skills
Conjuring(summoning) 5(7)
Stealth 3 (costs 4 points)
Pistols(Browning UP) 1(3)
Ettiquette(Corp) 6
Negotiations 6
Car 3
(looking at your skill list it looks like you didn't apply the rule that you need to pay doubble for skills over the attribute. That stealth 6 would cost a whopping 10 skill points. I went for more of an auxiluary role as a face with this one... If you've got the charisma then why not use it?).

Hope that was helpful. I have to say that I'd rather not have started with any spirits bound as they just cost too dammn much. I assume that you were talking about buying 8 force 4 spirits with 1 service each? That's not really that good an idea as after you use the one service it vanishes costing you 6 spell points.

If you really want 4 those four different types of spirits at chargen then I'd suggest 4 force 6es with 3 services each (48 spell points) as then you have 12 services from force 6 spirits rather than 8 from force 4 spirits.

Now however I was inspired to make some changes as follows:

High life 12 months instead of 24 fewer credsticks less clothing reduced the conjuring library to 6 and a few other things.

Burned a magic point got level 4 muscle aug./toner stats now read:

B-3
Q-6
S-5
C-8
I-5
W-5
E-6
M-5
Bio-3.2/2=1.6 round down as per the errata -1 to magic

have an excess of 149,250 in resources to work with.

Question why use a browning that does 9m w/ a 10© instead of the pred. I chose that does 9m w/ a 15© more shots between reloads?