Any reason for Adepts to get Quickdraw Anymore? Options

[nathanross]

Hmmmm, this thread addresses something that I feel CGL totally Fucked up on. While throwing baby's is nice, it does not pertain in any way to the issue of Iaijutsu maneuver and/or Krav Maga free Ready Weapon.

I always saw the Adept power Quick Draw as totally absurd (but hey, it's magic). Being able to quick draw an alpha, fire a long burst, drop it with a free action, then quick draw a panther cannon all within 3 seconds (or less), without magic is absurd. I don't really know what a better way to do what Krav Maga is intending, but Iai is for Katana. I see it only able to extend further to melee weapons (non exotic) with reach 0 or 1. This way, like the martial art's qualities, the mundane is not just meat for the adept, just the fighter adept that also has martial arts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I also feel that Iai should be learned separately for each type of weapon, and not just learned once to apply to all weapons. After all, 4karma hardly reflects the lifetime effort an Iai master must spend to master his art, much less perform it with accuracy and without harming himself.

[mfb]

i don't think it does. i think the iaijutsu maneuver reflects a basic understanding and competency with the technique, and that a high sword skill and high natural initiative score reflect mastery of the technique.

[nathanross]

i don't think it does. i think the iaijutsu maneuver reflects a basic understanding and competency with the technique, and that a high sword skill and high natural initiative score reflect mastery of the technique.

While you are right that a high agility and skill are good, this falls outside of hitting someone accurately and fast as you are hitting them accurately and faster using an unconventional method (the stroke starts with the blade in the sheath). I am not saying that it should be too expensive, but I see no reason for Iaijutsu maneuver to act almost exactly like Quick Draw adept power. If you want an absurd Quick Draw (aka Heavy Weapon quick draw), you become an adept. Allowing everyone to Quick Draw like an adept is just foolish.

When you train a Weapon skill (like a soldier would) you do not spend hours at a time repeating the most efficient drawing motions so that you can ready a weapon instantaneously, you focus on shooting straight. Of course knowing your weapon helps when you want to quickly draw it, but it does not go into the level of speed that the rules imply.

[hyzmarca]

If you keep clicking on Hyzmarca posts (I love you man, even if I find you creepy) you know what you're getting yourself into.

You're also probably the kind of person who still ran a search for "2 Girls 1 Cup" after your buddy told you that he threw up on his computer.

Would it surprise you to know that I find 2girls1cup to be aesthetically pleasing? Compared to most of the crappy (no pun intended) scat movies out there, 2girls1cup excelled in artistry, technique, and enthusiasm. I'm sure that most of this has to do with good editing. Now SWAP.avi was just atrocious. I find that if you read enough about a subject, written by enthusiasts from their perspective, you can understand and empathize with them enough to appreciate such things even if they are gross.



I'd really Chuck and DL play baseball together.


And yeah, Iaido quickdraw really shouldn't apply to things other than katanas carried in a traditional scabbard. Iaido is designed very specifically for the katana.

[Muspellsheimr]

Possible house rules for this include:
Quick Draw - no test is required. It succeeds automatically.
Iaijitsu - Only applies to melee weapons with a reach of 0 or 1 (may be taken a second time for all melee weapons), or ranged weapons of up to assault rifle size (may be taken a second time for all ranged weapons), chosen when you take the maneuver. You may take it multiple times, selecting a new option each time.

I will probably end up using both. Remember, there is supposed to be an errata for Street Magic this month (almost over). They may be fixing the issue, at least partially, with it.

[nathanross]

I dont there is an issue though with the Quick Draw rules in Street Magic as written. I guess it comes down to what everyone wishes to allow in their games, but I personally dont see how such a thing could be done by normal people.

Humans just dont have that kind of muscle power and speed to draw a rifle as fast as an expert can draw a katana or similar sword. It is so much heavier, the muscles used are different, and it just isn't Iai (plain and simple).

Any ideas for Krav Maga houserules? I haven't seen it used yet and it may be a nonissue, but I dont see how sammy's could resist.

[ixombie]

I always saw the Adept power Quick Draw as totally absurd (but hey, it's magic). Being able to quick draw an alpha, fire a long burst, drop it with a free action, then quick draw a panther cannon all within 3 seconds (or less), without magic is absurd. I don't really know what a better way to do what Krav Maga is intending, but Iai is for Katana. I see it only able to extend further to melee weapons (non exotic) with reach 0 or 1. This way, like the martial art's qualities, the mundane is not just meat for the adept, just the fighter adept that also has martial arts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, let's not get sidetracked by the name they used. When they picked iajutsu, they weren't referring to the katana technique. It was just a cool name they used.

I also feel that Iai should be learned separately for each type of weapon, and not just learned once to apply to all weapons. After all, 4karma hardly reflects the lifetime effort an Iai master must spend to master his art, much less perform it with accuracy and without harming himself.

I think that's a reasonable houserule, myself. Without that, iajutsu is mandatory for everyone except unarmed and Krav Maga fighters. And Quick Draw (the power) is pointless. I usually don't care about realism, but one skill allowing you to quick draw both a sword and an assault rifle is too far out there.

Though actually, couldn't you read the RAW that way? It says "The character may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon or firearm of Reach 1 or less with a Simple Action." Maybe the words 'single' and 'or' are telling us that you pick one kind of weapon that can be quickdrawn in this fashion. At the very least, it's an ambiguity. I wish they had some lawyers on the dev team who knew how to draft rules clearly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Feshy]

Well, let's not get sidetracked by the name they used. When they picked iajutsu, they weren't referring to the katana technique. It was just a cool name they used.



I think that's a reasonable houserule, myself. Without that, iajutsu is mandatory for everyone except unarmed and Krav Maga fighters. And Quick Draw (the power) is pointless. I usually don't care about realism, but one skill allowing you to quick draw both a sword and an assault rifle is too far out there.

Though actually, couldn't you read the RAW that way? It says "The character may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon or firearm of Reach 1 or less with a Simple Action." Maybe the words 'single' and 'or' are telling us that you pick one kind of weapon that can be quickdrawn in this fashion. At the very least, it's an ambiguity. I wish they had some lawyers on the dev team who knew how to draft rules clearly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

If you include the sentence before that, this interpretation becomes much less likely:

"A character with this maneuver may use the Quick Draw rules(p. 137, SR4) to draw any weapon, not just pistols."

While you don't have to learn the maneuver different for each type of weapon, do keep in mind that the quick draw test has a threshold, so theoretically you would need to be skilled in each type of weapon you draw. That's at least somewhat limiting, and reasonably balanc is a free action? And there is no test to do it? That's too much for a non-magic ability.

[nathanross]

If you include the sentence before that, this interpretation becomes much less likely:

"A character with this maneuver may use the Quick Draw rules(p. 137, SR4) to draw any weapon, not just pistols."

While you don't have to learn the maneuver different for each type of weapon, do keep in mind that the quick draw test has a threshold, so theoretically you would need to be skilled in each type of weapon you draw. That's at least somewhat limiting, and reasonably balanc is a free action? And there is no test to do it? That's too much for a non-magic ability.

That is true. A no test Quick Draw is just too far out. The Krav Maga I've seen is nothing like that.

As for the Quick Draw test, any weapon you really want to shoot usually has a DP of 9+ (3 Agility + 2 Muscle Toner + 4 Weapon skill). Now that is pretty safe for a threshold 3 test. If the character has a higher than average agility though and maybe even an exceptional skill, that is a cake threshold.

I think being able to draw a weapon with a Simple Action is already pushing the Human limits, this just goes too far into Adept territory for my liking. By the way, does anyone have any better qualities for Krav Maga? Something that would make it more of a Melee art and not a Ranged martial art.

Also, Kyudo and Kendo/Kenjutsu could use some stating, any volunteers.

[hyzmarca]

Drawing a weapon as a simple action is not at all pushing the limits of human ability. It lets a normal human draw a pistol from a holster in 1.5 seconds. With quickdraw he can draw the pistol and fire once in 1.5 seconds. In real life, drawing and hitting a target twice in 1.5 seconds from an exposed holster is the standard for firearms self-defense courses. Thus, the best unaugmented SR pistolman is slower than than a real person who has the minimum acceptable amount of firearms self-defense training.

[Slymoon]

Agreed hyzmarca

Here are two examples of very fast unaugmented persons:
first:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4



secondly:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ud7ML1bPi6g
6 hits in under 3 seconds.

[Feshy]

That is true. A no test Quick Draw is just too far out. The Krav Maga I've seen is nothing like that.

As for the Quick Draw test, any weapon you really want to shoot usually has a DP of 9+ (3 Agility + 2 Muscle Toner + 4 Weapon skill). Now that is pretty safe for a threshold 3 test. If the character has a higher than average agility though and maybe even an exceptional skill, that is a cake threshold.

I think being able to draw a weapon with a Simple Action is already pushing the Human limits, this just goes too far into Adept territory for my liking. By the way, does anyone have any better qualities for Krav Maga? Something that would make it more of a Melee art and not a Ranged martial art.

Also, Kyudo and Kendo/Kenjutsu could use some stating, any volunteers.

I don't know that I'd call 62.3% cake. It's a success more often than not, but not something to bet the bacon on except in an emergency. Still, you're probably correct that most runners have a higher roll than that. The odds jump to 81.9% at 12 dice, and 89.5% at 14 dice. Even then it's not guaranteed, even if it is likely.

[nathanross]

Drawing a weapon as a simple action is not at all pushing the limits of human ability. It lets a normal human draw a pistol from a holster in 1.5 seconds. With quickdraw he can draw the pistol and fire once in 1.5 seconds. In real life, drawing and hitting a target twice in 1.5 seconds from an exposed holster is the standard for firearms self-defense courses. Thus, the best unaugmented SR pistolman is slower than than a real person who has the minimum acceptable amount of firearms self-defense training.

I think you misunderstand. I believe very much in the ability to quick draw a pistol. I do NOT believe in being able to quick draw a rifle. They are both guns sure, but the physical properties of each are very different. Shotgun maybe depending on size, etc. But that is already covered under Pistol sized weapons, as a shotgun small enough to quick draw is a Heavy Pistol for all but damage.

[ixombie]

That is true. A no test Quick Draw is just too far out. The Krav Maga I've seen is nothing like that.

Actually, Krav Maga does not allow a quick draw. It's slower than that. A quick draw uses a simple action, so you could quick draw and activate your cyberhand gyro, or change gun mode, or w/e. But with Krav Maga training, drawing the weapon uses up your free action.

And Krav Maga is a modern military martial art. You think it's going to stay static over 6 decades? Quickdraw might not be part of Krav Maga training, but considering it teaches you how to beat the ever living tar out of someone with a gun, it's reasonable for the devs to add it in, I think.

[BRodda]

Hmmmm, this thread addresses something that I feel CGL totally Fucked up on. While throwing baby's is nice, it does not pertain in any way to the issue of Iaijutsu maneuver and/or Krav Maga free Ready Weapon.

I always saw the Adept power Quick Draw as totally absurd (but hey, it's magic). Being able to quick draw an alpha, fire a long burst, drop it with a free action, then quick draw a panther cannon all within 3 seconds (or less), without magic is absurd. I don't really know what a better way to do what Krav Maga is intending, but Iai is for Katana. I see it only able to extend further to melee weapons (non exotic) with reach 0 or 1. This way, like the martial art's qualities, the mundane is not just meat for the adept, just the fighter adept that also has martial arts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I also feel that Iai should be learned separately for each type of weapon, and not just learned once to apply to all weapons. After all, 4karma hardly reflects the lifetime effort an Iai master must spend to master his art, much less perform it with accuracy and without harming himself.

My GM has a sort of hosue rule that states I can quickdraw my throw weapons with no tests or costs. Basically my throwing adept can chuck 3 knifes an action (I have 3 actions do to improved reflexes) mainly becasue he likes the visual and it's "my thing". I think if we were strictly following the rules then I could just draw and throw a single knife an action. Of course that just means I'd be using my tomahawks more often becasue they do more damage, but it's harder to carry 6 or 7 of them. The deck of playing cards is still my standard weapon becasue it basically gives me a 6P weapon with heavy pistol ranges, a silencer and ammo capacity of 52.

Still it's a gip to Adepts if others can be just a quick on the draw.

[Dayhawk]

You're also probably the kind of person who still ran a search for "2 Girls 1 Cup" after your buddy told you that he threw up on his computer.

WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT ABOUT!!!

You know there are alot of references made on this board and not knowing what many of them are, I have to go look them up.

BLEAK!!!!

[DocTaotsu]

OH GOD MAN! I'm so sorry! But... But I said not to search it! I said it!

Why didn' t you listen... why did you listen...

[ArkonC]

OH GOD MAN! I'm so sorry! But... But I said not to search it! I said it!

Why didn' t you listen... why did you listen...

Well you should have known...
At Parsons in NY I helped with an art project where we hung a rope in front of the door with a sign hanging on it that said "DO NOT PULL"...
If you did pull it, a cup of water got dumped on you...
Of course nearly everyone pulled it, unless they saw someone else pull it...
There were even complaints from people who pulled it...
I mean, the sign clearly said not to...

[nathanross]

2Girls1Cup wasnt that bad. Just imagine it's chocolate Ice cream! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

I always thought it looked more like soft serve...

[nathanross]

Well it did melt pretty quick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/facelick.gif)

[bibliophile20]

OH GOD MAN! I'm so sorry! But... But I said not to search it! I said it!

Why didn' t you listen... why did you listen...

Because it was there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"No one would be that stu --"
Susan stopped. Of course someone would be that stupid. Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible do it. If you put a switch in a cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying "End-of-the-World switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH," the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.

[DocTaotsu]

Is there a spell that lets you project terrible internet images into peoples minds? Is this a popular hacker past time?

Why don't TM's tear their eyes out more often?

Behold, the horror of putting the matrix straight into your brain pan.

[ixombie]

First of all, people need to learn how to google. When I heard a reference to that video, I googled, and within about 2 seconds I encountered a description of it, so I didn't have to watch it.

Second of all Doc, it's called desensitization. We already have it now, with a number of people seeing 2girls1cup and saying "meh" on this very board. With snuff BTLs and such floating around everywhere, I don't think people have too much left in the way of sensitivity in Shadowrun. You might fight the last vestiges in prep school corpkid princesses or something, espeically with the (Neal Stephenson borrowed) neo-victorian school of thought...

On the other hand, it's a dystopia. You might say that in a dystopia, people are desensitized and no longer feel the pain of the world, because that's the only way to survive. But then again, if you don't feel the pain, it's not exactly dystopian, is it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

That's my take on dystopia. A proper dystopia must thread the line between being just shitty enough for players to still say "Man this is really shitty!" rather than "My character kills himself quietly in the bathroom".

But you're probably right. But hot simming the 2070 version of 2 girls 1 cup would probably still suck for the average person.

I do wonder if the people that "meh" to 2 girls 1 cup are desensitized or just... not fazed by that sort of thing. I mean, I'm rivited by gory medical photography but I know people who can't stand the sight of a needle.

Still you're probably right in 60 years people will have to used to some pretty crazy shit.

In a cup.