What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? |
What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? |
Feb 22 2008, 01:46 PM
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#101
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
The part in the book is a news report. Dragons get headlines. As all such in character description in the books, reality of the event is up to the game master.
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Feb 22 2008, 01:47 PM
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#102
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
It´s not only experience with magic that is missing. Most real-world militaries lack experience taking on a mundane army of their own size and quality, up to and definitly including the US army. The whole precedent of the Anti-dragon taskforce was a written "you manage to engage the dragon on your terms". That is one of the key problems fighting a mage of a GDs caliber, one that can disguise as any metahuman at will.
Another key problem is to avoid contact with the wrong forces. Infantery does not like fighting force 10+ guardian spirits, helicopters hate weather control (regardless where that comes from), tanks hate 30-dice castings of POWERBALL. Vehicular weapons are nice and stand a chance, but there is the whole business with conceal, and an initiative of 24 base, + any sustained spells. Runners are much weaker than Great Dragons, and already better than the military. At least in my games, the military would s(p)end special forces against runners. Think of Ghostwalker as a double-digit initiate mystical adept special ised on conjuration, with several powers for free, on top of several way-beyond-superhuman attributes. The bloodmage Gestalt was already destroyed IMO, and Jaguar Guards are almost laughable - infantery is the wrong choice, no matter what. |
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Feb 22 2008, 01:52 PM
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#103
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Infantry with rifles was the wrong choice against tanks in WW1 too, so we developped tank destroyers, anti tank artillery, and flying tank busters, as well as some portable anti-tank weapons 20 years later.
SR military had 50 years, and have no clue still? Yeah, right. Of all the countries, I'd expect Aztlan to have a rapid reaction force ready to astrally project to the location of such an attack, with their own army of bound (blodd) spirits. |
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Feb 22 2008, 01:54 PM
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#104
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,991 Joined: 1-February 08 From: Off the rock! Back In America! WOOOOO! Member No.: 15,601 |
Bah! Megacorps can't destroy the world? If anyone destroys the world my money's on the Mega's, more moving parts, run by people, etc etc. The number of megacentric bad days in the Sixth world are numerous and hilarious. Cermak blast anyone? Aztlan et al? Deus/Ren Arcology? Bad megas! Bad! Sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
I do really hate IE's though, I hate elves and pretentious forever elves just make me want to stab them with explosive knives. Still, I figure that if I'm ready to accept GD's flying around and telling everyone how the world works, I'm willing to deal with IE's running around... wearing... tight pants. Prancing, I'm convinced they prance... |
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Feb 22 2008, 01:58 PM
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#105
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I think you have no idea how fast troops are mobilised - especially after the first dragon attack, and especially after decades of shadowrunners trying those exact tactics. Didn't you get your own thread to discuss if and how fast a GD can be shot from the sky already? |
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Feb 22 2008, 01:59 PM
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#106
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
I'm willing to deal with IE's running around... wearing... tight pants. Prancing, I'm convinced they prance... Don't forget the singing. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:00 PM
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#107
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
That was a mental exercise concerning rules - this is about internal consistency of security and military forces being unable to deal with magic attacks despite having had decades to get ready for them.
In short, I am asking for an answer as to why, after multiple examples of dragon attacks and runners running havoc, no military seemed to have mustered any force able to deal with a dragon. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:04 PM
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#108
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Charcoalgrin would've been a better Dragon, fwiw. How can you say that "he shook up Denver" then turn around and say that he didn't really effect things that much, getting only a new Mayor and the Azzies out? You say that it was a mediocre setting, and all that really changed was that now it has a Dragon. Isn't that simply justifying the "Its a Dragon so its cool!" complaint? "It was boring...now its exactly the same, but it has a Dragon so its cool!" Actually, thinking about it, Charcoalgrin would've been a much better Dragon to bring in for a variety of reasons. Heya Mael, hows it been? Anyways, what I mean was this: Ghostwalker shook up what had been a static mostly unused setting for what, 4 or 5 years? More by the time YotC actually saw print? He changed things, he allowed for some dynamic effects to happen to the city and any campaigns set there, but... At the end of the day, it can effect and not effect a campaign (and the entire gameworld of Shadowrun) as much, or as little, as you want. The only real effect he had on an ongoing campaign was a shift in who controlled what, and the removal of one of the parties (Aztechnology). Other than a few weeks of chaos and a few months of adjusting, really, what effect does GW being in charge have on the average game? If the GM doesn't want to use GW, he can completely ignore it (After all, people ignore and modify major metaplot developments all the time), or if the GM would rather not ignore it, GW imply does the Mayoral thing and the PCs go about their business, and the two never cross. It's not like he has to be involved in every single thing that happens in Denver. And if the GM forces him on you, and you're not happy with it, well.. Maybe time to take the GM out for a talk and maybe a beating. From a story perspective, he had a huge impact. From a practical perspective, he could have had a very minor impact. And I will say this... THere was a lot of potential background stuff that could have been picked up and run with, and never was. It's been a while and my SR lore is rusty And my ED lore was rusty on it's best day, about a million years ago), but I remember the possiblity that the Spirit of Denver was involved heavily with GHostwalkers takeover. ICewing was Dollmaker, I believe? That has a lot to do with how he took over Denver. That, and his time on the Metaplanes. He had some sort of rapport with spirits. As for Charcoalgrin, you could well be right. However, Icewing was specifically chosen because of his connection with Dunkelzahn. I don't remember a thing about Charcoalgrin, but that could have been more appropriate. I know Icewing was, I think, either Steve Kenson or Brian Schooner's suggestion. <shurg> DUnno, I thought it made for a fun story myself. And to me, that's really all that matters in the end. Interesting stories. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:11 PM
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#109
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
That was a mental exercise concerning rules - this is about internal consistency of security and military forces being unable to deal with magic attacks despite having had decades to get ready for them. In short, I am asking for an answer as to why, after multiple examples of dragon attacks and runners running havoc, no military seemed to have mustered any force able to deal with a dragon. Yeah. Whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:25 PM
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#110
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
That was a mental exercise concerning rules - this is about internal consistency of security and military forces being unable to deal with magic attacks despite having had decades to get ready for them. In short, I am asking for an answer as to why, after multiple examples of dragon attacks and runners running havoc, no military seemed to have mustered any force able to deal with a dragon. Two reasons, one in general, and one specific to Ghostwalker. 1) I'd say that by 2060 (and by default, 2070), in general they can handle regular dragons. Hell, we've seen more than a few get killed in SR Fiction over the years. However, Great Dragons are magnitudes of power above and beyond that. The stats in Dot6W? Pretty much for a fledgling Great Dragon, just come into his powers. No on in the SR world except other GD's really know what a GD can do. How the hell do you deal with something that can ignore high caliber weapons fire, and can shrug off most artillery fire? And mages are going to be even even worse shape against one, because anything powerful enough to even make a GD blink magically will likely kill a mortal. 2) Now, as for Ghostwalker, there's a couple things you're forgetting or ignoring. For one, he used guerilla warfare, hit and run tactics. If he doesn't stay put for more than a couple minutes at a time, the military ain't gonna catch him. And once he tosses down a force 20 illusion or improved invisibility, who's gonna find him? And second, he wasn't alone. He had flocks of spirits, wyverns, and at least a few thunderbirds helping him out. And while the Wyverns and Tbirds are something the military can deal with, a few dozen spirits, undefined spirits at that (free? City? Sky? How big? Who knows) will tear a military unit apart, even if they have a few combat mages and spirits of their own. GD's can summon up BIG spirits, and Ghostwalker can summon up bigger spirits than normal. Hell, a half dozen spirits working the Accident power overtime alone... Plus, this is the final nail here. And this was something never explicitly stated, but was something that was talked about. Ghostwalker had at least one of the fragments of the Spirit of Denver working with him. One of the working theories and ideas was that the SPirit of Denver was going to be Icewings lost love, but that one never really got very far. And finally, I would point out that the fact is, everyone plays Shadowrun pretty differently, so just because an idea or concept doesn't jibe with you doesn't mean it's not valid. As I've said before, to paraphrase the SR Grimoires (And paraphrased from elsewhere): Ask a dozen Shadowrun Players what Shadowrun is, and you'll get back 13 different answers. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:29 PM
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#111
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,991 Joined: 1-February 08 From: Off the rock! Back In America! WOOOOO! Member No.: 15,601 |
Metaplots: Take it, leave it, or wear it like a hat. I think that's a decent take home lesson.
And yes, Fuch did get an entire topic on this. On military mobilization: I live in Okinawa. If you look at the top 3 reasons America cares about Okinawa you'll notice "Because North Korea might start some shit" at the very top (Sadly "Because the soba is really tasty doesn't make that list"). We've been here since World War II and occupy fully 50% of all the arable land on this island. We're kinda a big deal. Anyways, our sole job is to house marine units with a stated mission of stomping the crap out of North Korea in a stand up open land engagement. This massive open war thing is supposed to be our specialty, it's what half the tech we have is developed for. We have ships, heavy lift aircraft, air support, logistics etc to put upwards of 50k worth of people with guns anywhere in the Pacific Rim. We've spent nearly 40 years working on this doctrine, refining it as new technology has become available and selling it to Congress every damn year. If North Korea invades South Korea tomorrow, North Korea will completely level Seol with traditional firepower before any boots touch the ground. I've been informed that strictly speaking, South Korea will have to fend for itself for about a week before we'll even be able to make a difference. So yeah, the biggest baddest military in the world, working on a problem for 40 years, operating from an entire island devoted to kicking communist ass, fighting in a war it's designed to fight, still won't be able to save 11th largest city in the world from near total annihilation. *shrugs* 60 years of technological development would probably significantly decrease response times to major threats. That said getting a sizable organic force together, coordinated, and mobile doesn't look like it's going to get any easier. Now an army of cyborg ninja cyberzombies. That's a proposal that has merits. If you could overlook the giant black hole they generate in Astral space. Runners, GD's, and starving people with bags full of gasoline and Styrofoam are probably always going to befuddle the big bad military. A standing army, unless it's composed of the above CNCz's, is a giant hammer and these groups of people are bee's with grenade launchers. Asymmetric warfare, ain't that a bitch. But back to the original question. Ghostwalker exists to make people angry and start endless debates about whether my imaginary bag of stats and kick the crap out of another imaginary bag of stats. But seriously. For those of you who hate GW, what should have the writers done with Denver? |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:31 PM
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#112
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
And to wear the moderator hat for just a second, please try not to snipe at each other so much, pleaseandthankyou. You guys are fine thus far, but try and keep the thread relevant to the Original Post and a few posts are bordering on personal attacks.
Bull |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:31 PM
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#113
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
1) I'd say that by 2060 (and by default, 2070), in general they can handle regular dragons. Hell, we've seen more than a few get killed in SR Fiction over the years. However, Great Dragons are magnitudes of power above and beyond that. The stats in Dot6W? Pretty much for a fledgling Great Dragon, just come into his powers. No on in the SR world except other GD's really know what a GD can do. How the hell do you deal with something that can ignore high caliber weapons fire, and can shrug off most artillery fire? And mages are going to be even even worse shape against one, because anything powerful enough to even make a GD blink magically will likely kill a mortal. If people really see great dragons as able to shrug off artillery fire, then there's no point in arguing. As I said - dev pet protection. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:34 PM
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#114
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
60 years of technological development would probably significantly decrease response times to major threats. That said getting a sizable organic force together, coordinated, and mobile doesn't look like it's going to get any easier. I would equate the task to stopping a single airplane or two, not an army. And I do not think that after 9/11, the US air force is unable to scramble enough forces to prevent the next such suicide attack. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:49 PM
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#115
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Can I just state on the matter of how come GW can do this when Runners can't. Any runner with magic in the twenty's can do this in my games. Of course he has better things to be doing but hey. Even with out magic that high they can still do it. Militarys and Megas are monolithic, when they stomp you they stomp you flat (and take your hat) but it's like trying to swat microbes. A dragon maight be closer to a gnat but still no easy target.
QUOTE (Fuchs) I would equate the task to stopping a single airplane or two, not an army. And I do not think that after 9/11, the US air force is unable to scramble enough forces to prevent the next such suicide attack. I doubt they would try to stop it once it's in progress. A shot down Jumbo Jet dropping onto New York would have been just as bad as it hitting a building, maybe worse. Any rapid and effective military way of dropping GW would have destroyed vast chunks of city, something no one wanted to do. |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:52 PM
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#116
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
[...] Because the soba is really tasty doesn't make that list [...] It makes my list (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Any rapid and effective military way of dropping GW would have destroyed vast chunks of city, something no one wanted to do. Unless it was over someone else's portion of the city (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) |
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Feb 22 2008, 02:54 PM
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#117
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Nope, as no one wanted to start a war. If they did it would have been fine.
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Feb 22 2008, 02:57 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 323 Joined: 17-November 06 From: 1984 Member No.: 9,891 |
Unless it was over someone else's portion of the city (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) Which then in turn could have been blamed on the guys shooting down the dragon/airplane/whatever. Bad PR. Even worse when you are sitting on a powderkeg everyone waits for to explode, just doesn't dare to light the fuse. |
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Feb 22 2008, 03:07 PM
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#119
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,991 Joined: 1-February 08 From: Off the rock! Back In America! WOOOOO! Member No.: 15,601 |
The soba is really good... I just wish they knew how to put something in it besides fatty pieces of pork. I don't have a problem with pork it's just that... they put it everything. Oiy.
Hm... shooting down a dragon over someone else house, that's not a bad tactic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Feb 22 2008, 03:24 PM
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#120
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Aztechnology has the best PR departement of the corps, according to the old corp sourcebook, so they could have spin-doctrored such a crash.
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Feb 22 2008, 03:25 PM
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#121
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
If people really see great dragons as able to shrug off artillery fire, then there's no point in arguing. As I said - dev pet protection. I really didn't bother with the other thread, because the premise made the whole exercise pretty futile to me - ie. you'd first have to figure out how many cascading Anchored/Quickened/spirit sustained barrier/heal/reaction/Att buffing spells and how many unique metamagics and abilities (ie. spell matrixs, spirits using powers, astral shift, metamagics that allows it to borrow a spirit's powers, unique Ally abilities, etc) a great dragon could have accumulated over its 10+ thousand year existance. Strictly speaking, assuming artillery fire (or any other type of big gun) could track and hit him in the first place (through any Quickened multi-sense Invisibility spell and massive spirit Concealment, and multisense illusions it might deploy in a direct military confrontation), and the shells could then punch through the multiple Quickened and Anchored area and personal physical barriers, and that they could cause damage against his battle-ready magic-buffed Hardened Armor and his immense magic-buffed Body, then he's only going to be hurt until one of his myriad (Anchored, Quickened, Spell matrixed, Unique Enhancement, whatever) magical heal spells kicks in and heals him (or he uses the Regeneration power from a Force 20 possession plant spirit he's summoned and Channeled or whatever). It's an exercise in futility because ultimately individual GMs can make a great dragon as durable and powerful (or as weak) as they want. As a developer I have to pull out all the stops and assume it uses every trick the most min-maxed character on earth can think of (at a power/Force level higher than anything metahumanly possible), uses them all at once, and then also has its own unique set tricks of tricks to account for those 10k+ years of experience and dragon kinds' distinct understanding of Magic. |
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Feb 22 2008, 03:41 PM
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#122
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
I really didn't bother with the other thread, because the premise made the whole exercise pretty irrelevant to me - ie. you'd first have to figure out how many cascading Anchored/Quickened/spirit sustained barrier/heal/reaction/Att buffing/ spells and how many unique metamagics and abilities (ie. spell matrixs, unlimited bound spirits, astral shift, metamagics that allows it to borrow a spirit's powers, etc) a great dragon could have accumulated over its 10+ thousand year existance. Strictly speaking, assuming artillery fire (or any other type of big gun) could track and hit him in the first place (through any Quickened multi-sense Invisibility spell and massive spirit Concealment, and multisense illusions it might deploy in a direct military confrontation), and the shells could then punch through the multiple Quickened and Anchored area and personal physical barriers, and that they could cause damage against his battle-ready magic-buffed Hardened Armor and his immense magic-buffed Body, then he's only going to be hurt until one of his myriad (Anchored, Quickened, Spell matrixed, Unique Enhancement, whatever) magical heal spells kicks in and heals him (or he uses the Regeneration power from a Force 20 possession plant spirit he's summoned and Channeled or whatever). Says the Assistant Dev refuting Dev Pet Protection. Did you get the 3 year warranty plan for your pet dragons, Peter? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) *grins and ducks* In all seriousness though, this is exactly it. And even if you go strictly by the book, between their hardened armor and their body they're going to just laugh and grin while getting hit by tank rounds. And that's the low-stat, by the book Great Dragon. I imagine Lofwyr or Ghostalker have significantly higher stats. (This is 3rd ed here. We don;t really have any hard data on 4th ed GDs yet, nor do we have much in the way of stats for artillary weaponry). Throw in even a few "minor" spells, and they become that much harder to deal with. Add in that their intelligience and ability to plan ahead? I generally assume that any dragon you're shooting at isn't anything more than an illusion-distraction while the dragon plots his escape, revenge, and/or counter-attack. |
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Feb 22 2008, 03:48 PM
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#123
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,991 Joined: 1-February 08 From: Off the rock! Back In America! WOOOOO! Member No.: 15,601 |
I mean... magic aside, given their phenomenal dice pools and resources, couldn't they just dual wield gauss cannons? Do they opposable toes? Quad wield?
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Feb 22 2008, 04:11 PM
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#124
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The oldest dragon alive magically kicks the ass of a smallish army, which is limited in both size and equipment by the treaty of Denver, on top of that prepared to protect a border (and not even then able to stop smuggling). No special protection in sight. (IMO, at least that dragon is able to shrug of non-atomic artillery fire, and small atomic weapons will only warp its soul.)
Ghostwalker survives because of the same reason the PCC survives: Aztlan can not afford war. The CAS and PCC would bind its troops close to LA, while Amazonia takes the heartland of Aztlan and SK goes on a silent corporate war (his hatred is in the setting since Aztlan SB). So GWs purpose was to reorganise Denver. Mission fulfilled. What now? In my campaign he will simply stay head-honcho of Denver, no harm done. I´m quite satisfied if the current "South" American situation stays for a while. There is a certain book I´d like to read before things move on. |
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Feb 22 2008, 04:23 PM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 438 Joined: 21-September 07 From: Houston Member No.: 13,369 |
For one, he shook up Denver, which I personally always thought was something of a mediocre setting, at best. As I recall when FASA closed down, they found a full pallet or three of Denver Boxed sets in their warehouse, and I think there was a reason for that. Of course, the only place-book I've ever thought was worthwhile was Bug City, and that was less a Location book than it was a Campaignh and Story Setting. wow I have to disagree. I used to run a campaign in SR2 set in Denver simply because of how great the setting was. I mean you have access to all of the NA countries there. Border crossings, double dealings all in one convenient package and then the data haven. I do wish I had known what they were planning with GW coming there. I'd have loved to have built towards that. I also wish I'd had access to some of those pallets you mention. If for no other reason than to have all of the access cards since I only had one box and only got the two cards it had. UCAS and Souix Nation. Kinda funny, it was $25 for the whole boxed set. Times change. <shrug> Ghostwalker is like a lot of things in the Shadowrun Universe. He's there, he's defined, but usually it's up to the GM and players to utilize him as they see fit. Using the same logic that applies to Ghostwalker, really, what purpose do 95% of the people, places, and things in SR really serve? It's a part of the setting, that's all. that is basically the gist of what I was going for earlier. I want some things to evolve in the game but I don't want heavy handed excessive metaplot. |
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