What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? Options

[mfb]

that's pretty much the gist of what i'd picked up. but that's all it is, y'know? gists, rumors, half-truths. there's nothing even approaching rules for a situation like that, no way to compare it to other situations and logically extrapolate anything. so nobody can really say concretely what is or isn't possible for a great dragon in that position.

[tisoz]

There are no rules for spirits giving karma to other spirits. Idiotic feedback loop plan fails at step 2.

Well... There are no rules for "Dragon Magic" either, so I guess that fails, too. There are no rules for many things - doesn't mean it is not or can not be done and auto-fails.

wait, wha? i don't think it's ever been confirmed where GW was or what he was doing there, though the prisoner thing was strongly hinted at. i certainly don't remember any information concerning whether or not 'that' metaplane could or could not be escaped. i'm also not sure the rules for astral quests are applicable here, since there's no possible way that GW could have survived a quest that long.

I figured GW must be on an astral quest, as that is the only way to get to a metaplane. Also, it is the only way to really extend the time for astrally projecting. If he had just astrally projected, wouldn't he be limited to an even shorter time related to essence/hours?

[mfb]

that's the only way for a metahuman magic user to get to a metaplane. spirits, for instance, can simply exist on a given metaplane, though it's not clear what limitations apply as far as which planes they can get to and how long they can stay.

i was under the mistaken impression that a mage still lost essence during metaplanar quests, just at a slower rate; rereading, you're actually correct--no essence is lost during a quest. still, astral quests only take (rating)d6 hours to complete; GW's ordeal lasted several thousand years. any quest of high enough rating to take that long would have killed or disrupted him a long time ago.

mainly, my position is that a being with access to as much potential power as a great dragon, given tens of thousands of years to realize that potential, should be capable of doing what GW did. given that position, when i look at stuff the rules don't cover (such as being trapped for thousands of years on a metaplane), i use the wiggle room they grant to construct hypothetical explanations which support my base position. if i thought that GW should have eaten a rocket and died the first time he popped his head up, i'd be less forgiving with that wiggle room.

[swirler]

granted I haven't fully read all of the related parts, but I had always kind of assumed that GW was "trapped" there. It took the rift from the Big D's death opening up for him to escape through. As far as surviving from essence possibly lost, couldn't he have consumed the essence from spirits? Or maybe he had used bound spirits to feed him. Or possibly if he was being held there, who(m)ever was keeping him there may have provided sustenance. The shedim came back with him, correct?, maybe that had something to do with it. What about some kind of geas or pact, maybe that held him there?

mucho potential IMHO

[Angelone]

Ghostwalker actually is a shedim!!! /lone gunman off

Thinking about it I like that idea.

[Guardian]

In fact, you see exactly what Ghostwalker wanted people to see - a great dragon single-handedly beating the crap out of puny human forces.

Which is why he needs to die. But before he does, I want to know his motivation. Give me a reason to call off the Thor Shot; to not send Ares Firewatch or AZT death squads after him. Was he trying to get revenge for his brother's death? I could forgive him for that. If he was just showing off trying to impress us with his 2nd World crap, though, I want his severed head on a stick in front of Denver City Hall behind a sign saying, "Welcome to the 6th World."

I think some of why people get pissed off at Shadowrun's dragons is that they break the rules we expect dragons to follow.

Yes. Earth is our world, and they. Can't. Have it!

[hyzmarca]

Ghostwalker can't be targeted by any of the various North American powers because his death would instigate a power-grab that would inevitably lead to a war which would kill off the majority of the continent's population. Right now, positioned where he is, he serves as a buffer between all the rival nations. It wasn't the intent of any party to the Treaty of Denver for Ghostwalker to become its administrator, but it has worked out well enough. Ghostwalker's presence in Denver has created a superior degree of stability between the nations compared to the former status quo. Unilaterally removing Ghostwalker would be a treaty violation and an act of war and the countries involved don't trust each other enough to get together and do it; they all know that all of the others would attempt to grab what advantage they could in such an arrangement.

[swirler]

Ghostwalker can't be targeted by any of the various North American powers because his death would instigate a power-grab that would inevitably lead to a war which would kill off the majority of the continent's population. Right now, positioned where he is, he serves as a buffer between all the rival nations. It wasn't the intent of any party to the Treaty of Denver for Ghostwalker to become its administrator, but it has worked out well enough. Ghostwalker's presence in Denver has created a superior degree of stability between the nations compared to the former status quo. Unilaterally removing Ghostwalker would be a treaty violation and an act of war and the countries involved don't trust each other enough to get together and do it; they all know that all of the others would attempt to grab what advantage they could in such an arrangement.

wow
good point
hadn't thought of it that way

[Eyeless Blond]

The interesting thing about that explanation is it means GW doesn't have to be all that much of a super-brilliant strategist and tactician. I mean, he's been out of touch for 10,000+ years, and his first instinct is to go home to his castle. But when he gets there he finds a bunch of human bugs infesting the place, so his first instinct is to squash a few and frighten the rest into being his servants. He's been entirely out of the loop, so he had no knowledge of advanced technology; all he saw was a few young, inexperienced mages, with barely a few dozen initiation grades between them, and a bunch of random junk that doesn't even register as magical. Nothing to write home about.

So he lays about with old-style feudal tactics, breathing fire, conjuring up illusions and a few dozen spirits, that sort of thing. All the military might in the Sixth World watches on, knowing full well they could probably bum-rush the dragon with maybe a little trouble, but nothing to write home about. The one that did, though, would be fatally overextending himself, first off by deploying some major hardware in the treaty zone, second by revealing to all the other, more well-adjusted Greats on the planet that they have the tactics and firepower to take out one of the world's most powerful--if slightly out-of-date--Greats, who may well respond with extreme prejudice.

So the military hesitated. And as GW got settled in, the various rulers decided that things weren't so bad after all. The UCAS in particular probably loved him: they've supported dictators as stabilizing forces before, and hey, it turns out the guy's Uncle Dunkie's brother too! Hell, if he'd been born there they might've made him a Senator! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The rest of the nations appreciated that he hated the Azzies, and the Azzies didn't want to piss of the rest of North America as they'd probably get screwed from behind by Amazonia or whatever if everyone attacked them at once. Meanwhile GW has plenty of time to settle into his role of feudal lord of Denver, and maybe catch up with the rest of history and figure out how good of a break he got.

In other words, GW got real lucky. I think I can accept that; I mean, it's not as stupid as the Massive-Army-From-Nowhere that came out of Tir Tarngire, or how the Azzies steamrolled over the biggest military stronghold, naval shipyard, and concentration of military contractors in the Western Hemisphere (San Diego), but got stopped by the unbridled fury of Fresno... God I hated the Calfree book... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

They even retconned the great ghost dance to have been the result of immortal elves' meddling. Couldn't have been a totem influencing the shamans, or - what a thought! - humans discovering the magic by themselves. Nope, had to have immortal elven involvement in the single most important event that changed the political landscape of northern america.

Really, can we please see IEs and GDs cut down so they stand beside, and not on top of the rest of the powers, so we really have niches and a mix plot and powerwise?

Oh for Fuch's sake!

Reread the supposed Retcon the IEs and GDs have no idea who taught Howling Coyote, so they assumed it was an IE or a GD

[Fortune]

Reread the supposed Retcon the IEs and GDs have no idea who taught Howling Coyote, so they assumed it was an IE or a GD

Actually, it was Aina's half-Horror son Thais that originally taught the Native Americans the Great Ghost Dance way back in the 1800s. Read Worlds Without End.

[Grinder]

The interesting thing about that explanation is it means GW doesn't have to be all that much of a super-brilliant strategist and tactician. I mean, he's been out of touch for 10,000+ years,

More like 5,000 (since the end of the 4th world), but the rest of your argumentation is good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kremlin KOA]

Actually, it was Aina's half-Horror son Thais that originally taught the Native Americans the Great Ghost Dance way back in the 1800s. Read Worlds Without End.

so the devil did it

[DocTaotsu]

Half devil... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I like Hyz/Eyeless explanation best. It sidesteps the retarded "But army versus dragon..." debate and provides a pretty solid workable reason why GW got his own little pocket kingdom and most people moved on with their lives. The scene's changed, some players have shuffled around, but the world keeps turning. In fact it seems to me that the military in the area, if they did have tactics to combat dragons, probably were taken off guard by the fact that GW came in and started pounding on people 4th world style. I don't think your above average T-bird unit is used to "Dragon leaping out of an abandoned building and ripping my wings off whilst biting my wingman in half and throwing a force 10 fireball into my drone formation". But I digress. Any sort of anti-dragon doctrine is probably something they want to keep secret until it'll do the most harm and taking out GW is probably not what they had in mind. Tipping their hat early would have certainly pissed off the other GD who would have promptly started making very pointed inquires with their broad power base. I'm sure these inquiries would have involved certain deniable assets with panther assault cannons and backpacks full of HE. Hey! Plot hook! I like this GW thing more and more!

I'm also in agreement with Eyeless that in the broader spectrum of questionable happenings the TT super duper instant army always rankled me (I had, and still, blame it on my rabid anti-elf racism). And Aztlan storming 32nd street? It's not the most secure facility in the world but jesus h, how the christ did that happen and why didn't some smart commander scuttle all the infrastructure? Not every ship would have been in port at the same time, there's no less than 2 aircraft carriers (and their supporting wings) on another island, and the Marine Corps has an airbase a mere 30 minute drive away, and an entire Marine Division 45 minutes away. But I guess this is the future and the current plans for a "1000 Ship Navy" has probably gone right out the window. Still, that would have been a helluva a fight.
Maybe they just increased the percentage of VITAS cases in Tijuana hookers, that certainly would have negatively effected mission readiness...

And yes, I'm aware that the 1000 ship navy is a proposal to strongly incorporate allies into our mission planning, not actually build 1000 ships (Good lord that'd be expensively retarded). But I maintain that it's an excellent philosophy and one that will only grow in value when the eventual military cutbacks will commence. I still want my DDX though, and I'm holding out for it to be called the Robert A Heinlein Class.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Well... There are no rules for "Dragon Magic" either, so I guess that fails, too.

Bad choice of example, since DotSW gives rules for basic level dragon magic and their overpowered tricks fall into a similar category as unique enchantments. A better choice would be that there are no rules for eating, but since the case of karma transfer has exactly three options stated, and none of them are spirit to spirit, assuming that spirits get the best transfer rate for your PunPun-esque plan still leaves your plan up to the same kind of GM fiat that would also let you take down a great dragon with a well aimed Slivergun burst.
Or in simpler terms, if your plan can work, any plan would work.

[Fuchs]

You can always write up a justification for anything.

The Corporate Court could easily decide to kill GW, and make the nations keep the peace by bribes and threats.

GW could have been the surprised one.

Aztlan could have had another gestalt ready.

The NAN could have had something major magical up their sleeve - could be easily justified as a reason they were not gobbled up by stronger militaries in the time since the civil war.

But since the devs want dragons since they think they are cool, dragons (and elves at some time) get the writer's protection, everyone else is written off as stupid, inept, inferiour, timid, surprised, and lethargic.

[swirler]

But since the devs want dragons since they think they are cool, dragons (and elves at some time) get the writer's protection, everyone else is written off as stupid, inept, inferiour, timid, surprised, and lethargic.

tell that to Dunklezan

[Critias]

I can only assume you don't know how Dunkie really died, because it seems as though the point behind your statement is "see, look, they CAN get murdered!" or something.

[Ryu]

But since the devs want dragons since they think they are cool, dragons (and elves at some time) get the writer's protection, everyone else is written off as stupid, inept, inferiour, timid, surprised, and lethargic.

Has anyone claimed that the Devs could not declare a dragon dead? I thought they had done that a few times, at least twice in the case of great dragons I liked. The Big D, Nachtmeister, Kyle Morgans Dragon, Haesslich, The Feathered Serpent - runner companion, the executed dragon.


One needed (IMO) comment: Another gestalt? I would be surprised, but you should hope they don´t do that. This bit of "paternal knowledge" is not draconic in nature. And while we are talking IEs and dragons behind everything: The few dragons who care seem to be pretty impressed with metahumanities learning speed.

[mfb]

Really, can we please see IEs and GDs cut down so they stand beside, and not on top of the rest of the powers, so we really have niches and a mix plot and powerwise?

what, like maybe Tir Tairngire being run by an ork?

[Critias]

what, like maybe Tir Tairngire being run by an ork?

NEVER TALK ABOUT THAT AGAIN! YOU SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH AND...*ahem* I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm okay.

[swirler]

I can only assume you don't know how Dunkie really died, because it seems as though the point behind your statement is "see, look, they CAN get murdered!" or something.

my point is, he is dead
it happens, that doesn't mean it should happen constantly.'

[Fuchs]

"Don't tell me I run a superhero game just because my runners can outshoot all the cops and security in their town - and do so. I had a PC death just four years ago!"

"Dude, that was a PC that shot himself because the player wanted it."

"So? It's still proof that my runners are not overpowered, just because nothing but they themselves can kill them."

[Ryu]

"Don't tell me I run a superhero game just because my runners can outshoot all the cops and security in their town - and do so. I had a PC death just four years ago!"

"Dude, that was a PC that shot himself because the player wanted it."

"So? It's still proof that my runners are not overpowered, just because nothing but they themselves can kill them."

Don´t tell me that is your argument against my list of dead dragons, two of which great.

[Ravor]

I'm fairly sure that Fuchs' post was aimed at swirler's claim that Big D's death somehow means that Great Dragons aren't protected by the tender loving care that Dev pets tend to get.