What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? Options

[Critias]

my point is, he is dead
it happens, that doesn't mean it should happen constantly.'

Yes, but I'm (more and more) getting a feeling you don't really know how (or why) he died, or you wouldn't be bringing it up. It's kind of funny, though. Thanks for the chuckle. I don't really have a dog in the "dragons are stupid" versus "dragons are uber" fight, but I can't help but grin a little at the "They aren't too powerful, Dunkie's dead!" stuff.

[swirler]

im just saying the hate here seems a bit excessive IMHO

[Critias]

Right, and I'm just saying "mentioning a suicide as a casualty is kind of a silly way to try and argue something."

[swirler]

Right, and I'm just saying "mentioning a suicide as a casualty is kind of a silly way to try and argue something."

suicide? I don't remember it being that way. maybe I missed part of the info or it's just been that long.
My point still stand though, they can still die and as a general rule GD's are more plot points to use than anything.

[mfb]

i think part of the issue is that people like Fuchs think that everyone except for GDs and IEs, in SR, have to be stupid in order for GDs and IEs to do what they do. i don't think that's true. i think that anybody who survives for tens of thousands of years is simply going to be better than almost anyone who doesn't have that much experience. they're going to be smarter, they're going to be hardier, they're going to have backup plans for every occasion, they're going to have incredible resources. and that's not even counting magic.

i mean, just look at the numbers. let's say that, despite all the fighting, manipulating, surviving--despite all the crap that dragons do, let's say they only earn 1 karma per year. let's assume that during magical downcycles, they earn no karma. even given that extremely low rate of karma accrual, most great dragons will have racked up tens of thousands of karma.

if some GM came on here, complaining about how one of his powergamer players was using a dragon character with tens of thousands of karma to tear shit up in Denver, nobody'd bat an eye. they'd say "well, dumbass, if you didn't want a dragon tearing up Denver, you shouldn't have given your player a dragon with tens of thousands of karma."

humans aren't stupid, in SR. GDs and IEs don't have some special dev protection that allows them to win when logic says they should lose. logic says that GDs and IEs should win pretty much all the time, because that's what they've been doing since before recorded human history.

[DocTaotsu]

It should also be noted that GD's are also ninjas-

Oh god I'm sorry I'm just trying to defuse the onrushing tide of GD's versus Everyone else.

[Guardian]

... So he lays about with old-style feudal tactics, breathing fire, conjuring up illusions and a few dozen spirits, that sort of thing. All the military might in the Sixth World watches on, knowing full well they could probably bum-rush the dragon with maybe a little trouble, but nothing to write home about. The one that did, though, would be fatally overextending himself, first off by deploying some major hardware in the treaty zone, second by revealing to all the other, more well-adjusted Greats on the planet that they have the tactics and firepower to take out one of the world's most powerful--if slightly out-of-date--Greats, who may well respond with extreme prejudice.

So the military hesitated. And as GW got settled in, the various rulers decided that things weren't so bad after all. The UCAS in particular probably loved him: they've supported dictators as stabilizing forces before, and hey, it turns out the guy's Uncle Dunkie's brother too....

Hmmm. That sounds reasonable. I should be able to get to sleep at night without screaming for Ghostwalker's death, now. Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fuchs]

10'000 of years spent sleeping - or dealing with rather non-tech or low-tech socieities - does not mean one is ready for the information highway age. On the contrary, older people are usually less able to cope with new things.

I simply do not buy the claim that just because dragons (or elves) have had experience handling isolated, primitive communities wielding pointy sticks and swords means that they are unbeatable in a society like Shadowruns. A society that has picked up the pace, and goes through changes on all levels, from technology to sociology, faster than anything we ever saw before.

It's like taking a 90 year old former horse racer and expecting him to excel in an air race since he's got so much experience. It's a whole different ballgame.

Some of that experience can be applied, but not everything, and a lot of that experience will actually be a disadvantage. Just look at our history - what was "true" 200 years ago is not true anymore.

Of course, now will come the "but those are immortal elves and dragons, they are simply gods" line of reasoning.

[mfb]

"isolated, primitive communities wielding pointy sticks and swords"? dude, learn 2 earthdawn.

as far as IEs go, they've been here all along, watching and participating in the advance of technology.

comparing the adaptivity of someone who's been around for tens of thousands of years to the adaptivity of someone who's got one foot in the grave after less than a century is disingenuous. the simple fact is, nobody with the kind of longevity available to GDs and IEs can possibly have survived all the crazy changes that have come before without being extremely adaptable. the changes that the Internet wrought on the world are nothing compared to the changes that the Horror invasion wrought, after all.

[tisoz]

Bad choice of example, since DotSW gives rules for basic level dragon magic and their overpowered tricks fall into a similar category as unique enchantments. A better choice would be that there are no rules for eating, but since the case of karma transfer has exactly three options stated, and none of them are spirit to spirit, assuming that spirits get the best transfer rate for your PunPun-esque plan still leaves your plan up to the same kind of GM fiat that would also let you take down a great dragon with a well aimed Slivergun burst.
Or in simpler terms, if your plan can work, any plan would work.

There are no rules for dragons giving karma to free spirits in that list either, but I am willing to bet the majority of SR players would agree it can b done, probably at a ratio better than a full magician. It seems silly to me to think that every other being in the game can give/spend karma if they have it, but Free Spirits can only spend it.

Whatever, I knew the idea was going to be shot down, and hard, thus the reason to put it in the spoiler category. I like how the rest of the reasons in the post, those out in the open, were ignored.

I do like Eyeless's reasoning, especially in that it explains a silly event in likewise silly reasoning, leaving GW looking lucky and, hopefully when he applies his great intellect, feeling really lucky and stupid for rushing in without all that dragon-like planning.

I guess that is why the GW rampage irks me, and why his defenders seem to overlook, that GW came staight from the rift and attacked without preperation or much planning. It goes against all the things that they keep saying about not getting in a stand up fight and planning for every contingency with multiple backups. GW did not, and should have died for his mistake.

As far as GD deaths, have any been confirmed? Dunkelzahn suicided, but even then the door is still open for him to somehow miraculously reappear out of the rift that was created when he disappeared. I have not read about the female German that awakened in the SOX, but from what was posted here, her death sounds assumed but not definite.

[Fuchs]

"isolated, primitive communities wielding pointy sticks and swords"? dude, learn 2 earthdawn.

as far as IEs go, they've been here all along, watching and participating in the advance of technology.

Yes, primitive. Does Earthdawn has a matrix? Jet travel? Rapidly changing socieities? Media? High-Tech?

Earthdawn is a primitive fantasy world. Not anything modern, and it lacks any rapid change in its societies.

And the IEs have been there all along, sure. But that doesn't mean that they are on top of it - or even near the top, not with 10'000 years of slow changing, primitive history weighing down on 150 years of fast paced technological advancement.

I really think you underestimate the changes our world went through in the last 50 years, and will go through in the next 50 years in Shadowrun, to blissfully assume that anyone from ancient times will have an easy time copying.

Unloess, of course, we use the copout "they are elves, elves are uber" "reason".

[mfb]

i would argue that we don't know how much planning GW did. it's entirely possible that he was in communication with free spirits the entire time he was imprisoned. there's no evidence either way; all we have to go on is past behavior. past behavior says that GDs don't do stuff like that without planning ahead; therefore, it's reasonable to assume GW planned ahead, even if that planning wasn't explicitly shown.

yes, if you assume GW just waltzed in and kicked ass, it seems kinda weird that he didn't get blowed up. if you assume he acted like a GD, though, then it makes more sense.

Fuchs, see my edited post above. IEs and GDs are, by necessity, extremely adaptable because if they weren't, they wouldn't have survived to see the sixth world.

[cx2]

I like Sinner's take (and given that he works on SR...) that GW's "godzilla rampage" was just what he wanted you to see. Some people seem to have glossed over this, and it is perfectly reasonable.

We're talking about probably the most magically powerful being on the face of the earth for crying out loud. Double digit initiate barely scratches the surface. He is by no means a god, but think of it as comparing an old flintlock pistol fired by a soldier to a modern day tank. Whilst it is true that the magical must adapt to the modern age in a lot of ways it is also equally true that sometimes, just sometimes, the world has to adapt to magic. Major examples would be the GGD and the UB, for example. Also perhaps toxic and blood magic, vampires...

[Fuchs]

Fuchs, see my edited post above. IEs and GDs are, by necessity, extremely adaptable because if they weren't, they wouldn't have survived to see the sixth world.

First, there's a very big difference between surviving and dominating. I'd not have any trouble with accepting that GDs and IEs are able to survive in the 6th world. Lowfyr and Dunkelzahn are very good examples for that. And neither was known to use claw and spell to get his goals, conquerring SK and the UCAS by killing cities. They used money and media savy to get their goals.

I don't accept that Dragons and Immortal Elves can dominate the world it to the degree portrayed in the books, especially without adapting. Feudal and medieval tactics should not work in Shadowrun. It makes the whole world less internally consistent.

Or to sum it up - I have no trouble accepting GDs and IEs as manipulators, planning long term, and using money and intrigue. I have a lot of trouble accepting them as modern one-man armies, openly running amok and getting away with it. They should have to fear the military enough not to do that.

And, of course, the whole thread here we see a lot of "but, GW had to be planning all this, he's a GD". I don't buy it. I see a cheap, stupid plot, and a GM scrambling to cover his mistake with fake justification, instead of admitting "ok, folks, I screwed up, let's just forget this, ok?". Now we have GW planning through spirit communication? Without any shred of evidence? Just so we don't have to say "ok, it was a stupid plot"?

The list of constructed "reasons" to justify GW grows.

[Eyeless Blond]

10'000 of years spent sleeping - or dealing with rather non-tech or low-tech socieities - does not mean one is ready for the information highway age. On the contrary, older people are usually less able to cope with new things.
[...]
Of course, now will come the "but those are immortal elves and dragons, they are simply gods" line of reasoning.

Actually what I was going to say is it doesn't matter whether GW was acting as a super tactician or was just bringing a REALLY big knife to a gunfight. What does matter is that the various militaries either want him there, or don't want to piss off the other militaries that do want him there.

Let's pull it back to an example many of us are becoming increasingly familiar with: Iraq circa 2000. Now, Saddam's regime was crammed between more than a few big powers, any of whom could have easily crushed him (as witnessed when Idiot Cowboy did it in a land war lasting a whole month.) But look what happened when he was deposed; Idiot Cowboy is still there cleaning up the mess, and will likely either tie our country up for another decade dealing with the ramifications, or watch the region slide into a civil war that will tear apart the whole region.

Okay, so imagine there are three guys in a Good, Bad and the Ugly-style mutual staredown. But, in the middle of this, some idiot drunken fratboy walks in and starts peeing on a nearby tombstone. Now, any one of the gunmen could draw his gun and shoot the guy, no problem, but doing so would mean the other guys--the real threats--would get the drop on them. So the best solution is to ignore the peeing drunk guy and focus on the people who can actually kill you.

In other words, the reason GW is still alive isn't because he was so smart; he was the idiot, acting on many-thousand-year-old tactics and strategies to win a war in the 21st century. The only reason he's not a thin smear on the Astral plane is because the various militaries were smarter, and realized they could use the idiot as a buffer between each of them.

[mfb]

Or to sum it up - I have no trouble accepting GDs and IEs as manipulators, planning long term, and using money and intrigue. I have a lot of trouble accepting them as modern one-man armies, openly running amok and getting away with it. They should have to fear the military enough not to do that.

hell, that's the easy part. GDs and IEs hone their combat and magical skills in expectation of fighting Horrors. tanks and t-birds, by comparison, should barely even be a warmup.

and if you'll notice, there are actually very few examples of GDs displaying that kind of power, and no examples of IEs doing so. at least, none i can think of. can anybody back me up?

[DocTaotsu]

No no Eyeless, he already selected your response for you, you can't clarify your answer.

[Fuchs]

hell, that's the easy part. GDs and IEs hone their combat and magical skills in expectation of fighting Horrors. tanks and t-birds, by comparison, should barely even be a warmup.

and if you'll notice, there are actually very few examples of GDs displaying that kind of power, and no examples of IEs doing so.

I disagree. I expect most of the horrors to be wiped when they face what weapons humanity has in 200 years. If ED heroes can hurt horrors with swords, then lasers, gauss rifles, and whatever we come up with to kill stuff will work even better. We might even have magical bullets by the time the mana level rises enough for the horrors to come forth.

It's not the 4th world anymore. We have had technological advances of a level unparalleled before, and I find it rather sad that people don't think what this means, still stuck in the "horrors are bad, ED says so, so they will devastet the 6th world as well". It simply runs coutner to the tech curve.

[mfb]

ED heroes were all high-rated physical adepts. someone with more experience playing ED will have to back me up on this, but as i recall, even the lower-end Horrors were more than a match for most groups of ED heroes, unless those heroes had a lot of experience under their belt.

we have stats for Horrors, and we have stats for some of the creatures and weapons that ED and SR share. that means we can make fairly educated guestimates as to how bad the Horrors would/will be in SR, and all of the reasonable guestimates say that they're going to eat humanity's face.

[Malicant]

I really think you overestimate the changes our world went through in the last 50 years, and will go through in the next 50 years in Shadowrun, to blissfully assume that anyone from ancient times will have a hard time copying.

fixed.

Also, when you stop comparing apples with microwaves based on your knowledge of hairgrowth, you might want to read a little biology to learn why old people have trouble adjusting to new times and technologies.

Ancient and old are very different things. Assuming IEs and GD are old because they are ancient is rather silly.

[Fuchs]

The whole argument boils down to two points of views, and from each point of view, conclusions are drawn and justified:

1. Dragons are gods. Anything that can hurt them is godly too. Human are not gods. So, humans can't touch dragons, so anything that can hurt a dragon can wipe humans. So Horrors will wipe humans. And magic bests technology since dragons have better magic and the military has better tech and dragons beat the military.

2. Dragons are living beings. Not gods. Big living beings, and magical beings but vulnerable to stuff that kills big stuff - like the army. So, magic is powerful, but military weapons top it. Anything dragons can beat, the military can beat as well, and then some.

I don't subscribe to the "dragons are gods" theory, so of course anything derived from this I don't accept either. Others don't subscribe to the "a tank company kills a dragon" theory, and so anything derived from that starting point is not acepted by them.

For me though, the main difference between Shadowrun and generic fantasy world is that in Shadowrun, a bullet (or shell) can kill anyone, no matter their race and power. There are no gods in Shadowrun, so everyone has to act in a way that doesn't get them shot.

Once this fundamental (for me) aspect is changed to "X is invulnerable", the game stops being Shadowrun for me, and becomes yet another fantasy world with guns added to it.

[Fuchs]

we have stats for Horrors, and we have stats for some of the creatures and weapons that ED and SR share. that means we can make fairly educated guestimates as to how bad the Horrors would/will be in SR, and all of the reasonable guestimates say that they're going to eat humanity's face.

If we ignore any weapn progress we'll make. Also, most ED heroes would be simply cannon fodder in a war against modern military. The range of their spells and arrows is stupidly short compared to airplanes and cannons. And they got nothing to protect them against shells and bombs. And they could fight some horrors still.

Now add FAT X strains, magetech stuff, nanotech, and common sense, and I don't see horrors making it.

[mfb]

i don't subscribe to either of those theories. i subscribe to the theory that dragons are living beings who, in order to have thrived and survived in the situations they have encountered during their long lives, must be incredibly intelligent, tough, and powerful.

how intelligent, tough, and powerful? intelligent enough to not tip their hands too much as to how tough and powerful they actually are, for one. tough enough to survive pretty much anything long enough to escape. and pretty damn powerful, looking at the enemies they've had to deal with.

basically, i think they're as powerful as i could make them with the resources they have available.

Now add FAT X strains, magetech stuff, nanotech, and common sense, and I don't see horrors making it.

good for you. this is an argument that has been held many times before, with solid logic on both sides. i really have to doubt it's going to finally be resolved here, so i don't see much point in trying.

[Fuchs]

I call that "Dragons are gods", since just about everyone in that camp basically says they can have what ressources they want. So - infinite ressources, aka Author's fiat, equals gods.

[mfb]

it's author's fiat that they've survived to the modern age. given that fiat, it's logical that they must possess the means to have done so. the only means that would allow them to do so would also allow them to thrive in much the way that they are currently thriving.