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> What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what?
john_doe
post Feb 25 2008, 07:33 PM
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Anyone ever considered that GDs and IE are so successful in what they do and in their longevity because we as stupid humans have nothing better to do but argue and bicker of what GD's and IE's are doing, and how they have survived that long?

They prob sit back and laugh knowing that they don't have to do anything, because ultimately our bickering will escalate to a fight, which will escalate into a war, and eventually all the people who were bickering will have killed each other over an idea or the thought of what SOMEONE ELSE was actually doing or not doing, and how they did it or didn't do it.

I'd say GD and IE are pretty smart in that regard because they know we as humans will ultimately cause our own destruction. They survive and prosper because we are too busy arguing with each other about how they do and have what they do.

At least that's how i justify their "god-like" state they have been so affectionately dubbed.

But i digress...
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swirler
post Feb 25 2008, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (Blodgett @ Feb 25 2008, 12:00 PM) *
*stuff*

Interesting points. Does anyone know offhand or does it say how long "GW's" (HA!) rampage lasted? Also where cna the info be read? I've seen some of it but not all I assume. Did it specify what areas where hit? I always been under the impression it was closer to surgical strikes than all out "stomp stomp smash" Godzilla tactics. At least when looked at in hindsight. Again I am no expert on the subject that was just the impression I had been given.
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kigmatzomat
post Feb 25 2008, 08:30 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 24 2008, 02:01 PM) *
Yes, primitive. Does Earthdawn has a matrix? Jet travel? Rapidly changing socieities? Media? High-Tech?


I'll argue this one. ED had jet travel for the elite, if not masses (sky ships) and the truly elite have access to teleportation-style movement. They had advanced health care (craploads of magic healing) and blood-magic items that were living "cyber." Much of the magic was accessible to the masses in the form of "common" magic that was non-threaded or relied on blood-magic. Anyone could get a hotpot, cool cloak, death-cheat charm, blood pebble armor, and targeting eye to work.

The Matrix is a bit of a tosser, although the magical lines of communication are probably on par with 1940s telegrams. ED was capable of building something matrix-like, but the setting was in the rebuilding phase following World War -15. A blood-magic datajack and/or headware memory is quite possible.

A single mage could, and did, shrink an entire city down to fit in a bottle. The mages at that level, which admittedly were few, rarely put themselves in the same league as the great dragons. "Regular" dragons, sure, and the GDs acknowledged the archmages as more powerful than the "immature" members of dragonkind.


QUOTE
Earthdawn is a primitive fantasy world. Not anything modern, and it lacks any rapid change in its societies.


That alone says how little you know about ED. The base book was about change. Change from a thousand years of hiding. Change from isolated pockets of "civilization" coming back together. Part of the out-of-box concept was that you would find missing societies and tell them they could come out. The question of what kind of society evolved, assuming anyone survived, is inherent in that approach.

In the greater metaplot, you had Barsaive's quest for independence from Thera. Barsaive was led by the dwarves and their recently drafted drafted constitutional monarchy, IIRC, with Thera as a caste-based meritocracy. The basic ED "metaplot" was as much about the paradigm shift from a "land of obligations" to a "land of rights" with the Horrors as a backdrop.
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Blodgett
post Feb 25 2008, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Feb 25 2008, 02:24 PM) *
In keeping with my desire to stay the fuck out of this debate because I really have almost no opinion one way or another... I don't want to say much here. But there are some statements that need correcting, just based on my own needs to see history presented in a clearer light.



The Imperial Japanese navy was hardly outdated in any regard during the start of the pacific war. While it's true that some of their small arms were subpar, nothing of the sort can be said about the fleet or its aircraft. The level of error in assuming that the IJN was outdated or primitive cannot be understated. They were massive, well-equipped, well-trained, and organized. Please do not make the mistake of assuming that they were primitive due to their nation of origin. Also, please do not make that mistake about the SDF now either.

Like you, I'm not gonna get into the history of Pearl Harbor, but I believe your argument is guilty of a does-not-follow in likening it to Ghostwalker, due to the fact that Denver didn't even know Ghostwalker existed. A single entity you don't know exists is very different than a nation you've signed a non-agression pact with.

I neither agree nor disagree, I just think there are more differences than similarities.


My point was just because you know about something, prepare for it (and possibly know it's coming, that was a can of worms I was trying to avoid), doesn't mean that you are 1) prepared for it or 2) can effectively fight it. WWII is just the biggest example of that I could think of.

And you're right, the IJN wasn't completely backward, but that was the US's attitude (maybe not the military's attitude, but the average joe on the street's attitude). People forget that the more troops you have, the more assets, the harder it is to get them moving successfully.

Personally, I think the troops at Denver were as ready as the troops at Pearl Harbor, i.e. what the heck is that? Oh, crap! We're done for! (Basically, nobody knew what the heck was going on at either place until it was far too late. But that's my opinion.)
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DocTaotsu
post Feb 25 2008, 11:13 PM
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Blodget your general point about GW utilizing total surprise to come out on point still stands. I did miss the bit about the Imerial Navy being outdated because that's fairly untrue, They did just get done kicking the snot out of the Russians. But you're right, Americans and by extension the military just didn't take into consideration how advanced they Japanese were at the outbreak of the conflict.
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Angelone
post Feb 26 2008, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE (martindv @ Feb 25 2008, 12:07 PM) *
Whoever said that if GW had attacked Washington he'd be squashed doesn't know what they are talking about. The city isn't that safe, and least of all in SR.

Ignoring the fact that he came out of the Rift a whopping seven (and these are short blocks. Nothing like New York) blocks from the White House. The only thing that saved that city was GW's utter lack of interest.


My point was that if he started attacking just the UCAS, CAS, Aztec, or the NAN. He would have gotten stomped because there would be no need to have the kiddie gloves on. He attacked Denver which is effectively no man's land. None of those militaries wanted to be "that guy" and start a war none of them wanted because they missed a GW or they hit him and ended up messing up someone else's sector of the city.
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tisoz
post Feb 26 2008, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Feb 24 2008, 05:58 PM) *
The rest of your post was an angry rant against Synner

I didn't think it was much of a rant. To explain, he started a topic about killing a great dragon a few years ago. In hindsight, it looks to me like he took the information about viable or even questionable ways to kill the dragon and included new rules in Dot6W and SR4 that negated those solutions. Strengthening dragons even more. I felt played.

[applying randomly chosen obstructions to one side of a conflict because you didn't like what's in the book.]
What was random? I thought what was in the book was a partial account, and just like people were saying GW probably did this and used these tactics, I tried showing some consequences of taking such actions.

If a shadowrunner magician started slinging huge illusions of a Great Dragon terrorrizing downtown Seattle (or any city), it is going to draw attention. In any game I have been a part of, astral magicians are going to investigate. Astrally, they can see it is an illusion pretty easily, and can see through most of the tactics people were claiming GW used to avoid being seen. I also tried to point out some limits to masking and foci use that were ignored. That information is in the book.

QUOTE
I'll address two points that are fairly real since you are offended that I did not earlier.
1) Spell selection: Minimum int of 13 (actually higher). He didn't party in Denver the same day he showed. Signs indicate that he had support from Dunkie's minions (although none openly during the fights). He knew what to know.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
I am going by YotC.58-59. GW exited the DC rift New Years eve (that is 12/24 and I am assuming in the evening or that night as the witness was there "partying") and news coverage of the rampage started at 12/25 00:21:13, or shortly after midnight. (Actually, that is the timestamp for when the transcript of events got posted on the matrix, so it may have been over before midnight, making it the same day.) That is minutes to hours later, not days later.

Without something to back up your claims, I am going to figure the rest of your assertion is as reliable and unbiased.

QUOTE
2) Countering spirits: Your spirits are more likely to go join him than follow your instructions to attack his spirits.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif) Where are you pulling this from? You may as well say any metahuman is going to fall in love with and join him, too.

QUOTE
Even if watchers, bugs, blood spirits and ancestor spirits still obey, that's a greatly reduced useful combat potential.

I wholeheartedly agree, and GW is a single entity. The city and the corps in it have many more mages and his rampage is going to draw all their attention. The reduced combat potential is going to hurt GW more.

QUOTE
As for selective use of powers against the mortals, Confusion has no direct damaging effects, and if above force 4 virtually incapacitates anyone by SR3 rules.

GW is mortal, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Drawing this attention makes it harder for GW's spirits to differentiate targets from onlookers. Every onlooker that gets collateral damaged converts onlookers to adversaries. New adversaries are likely to send watchers for more backup from HQ (HQ in this instance being LS, corp, SR hangout. Then hundreds and thousands of additional worldwide, astral reinforcements can be there in a matter of seconds.)

QUOTE
Now, I have countered. I already know your response, you reject both points, not because they disagree with the books and other source material, but because you disagree with the books and other source material.

I thought I was pointing out actual rules and source material many seem to want to overlook when dreaming of the great power potential of a being like a great dragon. I tried looking at it as if it came up in a game and the likely response and follow-up response.

Just imagine it is a SRer who can do some similar things and the swift, overwhelming reaction it would incur. Then, put GW back into the mix to counter how the inhabitants of a city are likely to respond - even if GW is still successfully hiding.

QUOTE (swirler @ Feb 25 2008, 03:17 PM) *
Interesting points. Does anyone know offhand or does it say how long "GW's" (HA!) rampage lasted? Also where can the info be read? I've seen some of it but not all I assume. Did it specify what areas where hit? I always been under the impression it was closer to surgical strikes than all out "stomp stomp smash" Godzilla tactics. At least when looked at in hindsight. Again I am no expert on the subject that was just the impression I had been given.

It is in Year of the Comet, the section titled Ghost Stories. A report on 1/26 refers to attacks over the past few weeks.
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Ravor
post Feb 26 2008, 07:47 AM
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Something to remember is that Dragons aren't really Horrors anymore then metahumans are even if we believe their own creation myth, they are at best the first Horror Spawn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) (Provided that I'm not misremembering their myth that is.)
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 26 2008, 08:06 AM
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tisoz's notes about the whole incident do indicate that GW had no foreknowledge of the sixth world before his attacks on Denver.

Just a thought, but one thing GW probably had no knowledge of was cyberware. All he saw, after coming home from a long, harrowing ordeal through the metaplanes where he had to deal with God knows what, is a bunch of metahumans with less than 6 Essence, sometimes so much less that they were practically dying inside. Now, GW's been living in a hole for a few thousand years, so he knows of only a few things that could cause Essence loss of that magnitude:

-massive, widespread, severe drug addiction ==> POSSIBLE HORRORS
-somebody (or many somebodies) making extensive use of Essence Drain ==> POSSIBLE HORRORS/BLOOD MAGIC
-a bunch of trash and POSSIBLE HORRORS

So what do you do when you come home after a long, LONG, stressful commute, and you see a colony of red ants moving in on your front lawn? You shout "Oh no f*cking WAY!" in your head (or maybe aloud), and you reach for the hose and the bug spray.

That's what GW did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 08:07 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 25 2008, 06:08 PM) *
dude, mage research is useless. it doesn't advance anyone except for the mage doing the research. if i research my way into grade 17 initiation, people can't pick up my notes and use magic like a grade 17 initiate. they can't even directly follow my path to grade 17.


Initiation itself was researched. New spells, new metamagic techniques, new summoning techniques (watchers) were researched, all within a few years (SR1 to SR4).

Of course you still have to learn the stuff, but you can build upon what is there. And it's very much easier (and safer) to learn techniques and spells someone else researched already than to do it yourself.
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 08:13 AM
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QUOTE (Angelone @ Feb 26 2008, 01:00 AM) *
My point was that if he started attacking just the UCAS, CAS, Aztec, or the NAN. He would have gotten stomped because there would be no need to have the kiddie gloves on. He attacked Denver which is effectively no man's land. None of those militaries wanted to be "that guy" and start a war none of them wanted because they missed a GW or they hit him and ended up messing up someone else's sector of the city.


I'd say that the likelyhood ofr a war breaking out over a fight with a dragon is almost zero, since it's really hard to miss such an attack.

"Sir, Sir! A missile just detonated on our frontyard!"

"I know son, we're tracking a fight between a dragon and the security forces in the next sector, and getting ready to intervene if the lizard flies over to us."

Again, don't assume everyone without scales is stupid. Not to mention that most modern weapons used against a dragon won't do that much collateral damage. Not that much more than a "typical" firefight chase of a few runners/smugglers over a highway involving a few yellowjackets and drones.
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Feb 26 2008, 09:06 AM) *
tisoz's notes about the whole incident do indicate that GW had no foreknowledge of the sixth world before his attacks on Denver.

Just a thought, but one thing GW probably had no knowledge of was cyberware. All he saw, after coming home from a long, harrowing ordeal through the metaplanes where he had to deal with God knows what, is a bunch of metahumans with less than 6 Essence, sometimes so much less that they were practically dying inside. Now, GW's been living in a hole for a few thousand years, so he knows of only a few things that could cause Essence loss of that magnitude:

-massive, widespread, severe drug addiction ==> POSSIBLE HORRORS
-somebody (or many somebodies) making extensive use of Essence Drain ==> POSSIBLE HORRORS/BLOOD MAGIC
-a bunch of trash and POSSIBLE HORRORS

So what do you do when you come home after a long, LONG, stressful commute, and you see a colony of red ants moving in on your front lawn? You shout "Oh no f*cking WAY!" in your head (or maybe aloud), and you reach for the hose and the bug spray.

That's what GW did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


And what he should have been killed for, attacking without a clue, and without any knowledge of the technology present, or anything else about the 6th world.
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 08:24 AM
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QUOTE (martindv @ Feb 25 2008, 07:56 PM) *
It's finally become clear to me that Fuchs has no idea what he's talking about.

He hates dragons. So do I. The only difference is that I don't revolve my games around them, whereas he seems to hate them to distraction.


I played 1st Ed. ED for years. Horrors were still present, and the sanity of the namegivers or what the hero races were called was in danger when they were involved with horrors, due to their corruption.

I don't use Dragons in my game, they don't fit in runner operations, and Lowfyr and co. won't noticably meddle on the level my runners are at.

And what you don't get is that you're using ED as a basement for your deductions, I don't. Of course, going from the ED rulesset, made for heroic fantasy gaming, you'll end up with a lot of different asumptions about a world than going from SR's modern gameplay.
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Critias
post Feb 26 2008, 08:32 AM
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Do you have any explanation as to why your idea of what Earthdawn is and how their society/mindset works than everyone else's ideas of the same?
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 08:49 AM
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Beats me. In hindsight, the whole setting was pretty stupid - the whole climates of the world all present in a country as small as part of modern ukraine, not much detail about the world outside barsaive, rules that did not jive at all with SR's world (despite a much higher mana level astral projection was not common, healing spells were not common either, and summoning seemed more limited too, no watchers, spells took longer even with raw magic, people were slower too, IIRC the round times from ED and SR correctly). And my personal favorite: the windling race described as having a ratio of 1 woman to 10 males, monogamy, and generally having a single kid per couple. Did the author even spend 1 minute thinking this stupidity through? Windlings would have died out in a few generations simply because their numbers would have shrunk by 90% each generation.

So, judging by this "quality" of the setting, I don't see why some people consider ED anything more than some rather cheap and illogical fantasy campaign set cobbled together from a few original, a few "cool" and a few stupid ideas.
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Grinder
post Feb 26 2008, 09:00 AM
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*shakes head*
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 09:10 AM
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People might do well to understand that ED was a game setting. Their rules were made for a game, not to explain a world. The best example is range of spells.

In ED, spells had a very short range. No range to line of sight, like in SR. I understand why this was the case - in ED, magic with the range of SR's magic would have made spellcasters overpowered. But it does result in the simple fact that in "weak mana SR", spells had a far greater range than in ED, who was supposed to have more powerful magic. And the reason? Game balance, not some deep, background fluff explanation. Simple game mechanics.

That should show that one cannot simply take ED, and apply it to SR by comparing. Both "worlds" have had rules put in that were not made for worlds, but for game balance.

Trying to reason that since X does Y in ED, it should do Y in SR would be building upon a flawed base already. Game balance works a lot different in ED (or D&D) than SR.

A number of people still don't see this, they assume that the rules were made to describe a world, and extrapolate from that, forgetting that often rules and mechanics are there just for a game reason - usually game balance. Remove the game reason, and the fluff or rule loses any justification of existence.
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martindv
post Feb 26 2008, 10:46 AM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Feb 25 2008, 06:13 PM) *
Blodget your general point about GW utilizing total surprise to come out on point still stands. I did miss the bit about the Imerial Navy being outdated because that's fairly untrue, They did just get done kicking the snot out of the Russians. But you're right, Americans and by extension the military just didn't take into consideration how advanced they Japanese were at the outbreak of the conflict.

They also seemed quite obsessed with the idea that a war with Japan would be a battleship to battleship melee in the central Pacific. Not an air war and a distracting island-hopping south pacific campaign to keep MacArthur (who really was the worst kind of inept cretin officer WW2 did manage to heavily weed out) busy that it turned into.

QUOTE (Angelone @ Feb 25 2008, 07:00 PM) *
My point was that if he started attacking just the UCAS, CAS, Aztec, or the NAN. He would have gotten stomped because there would be no need to have the kiddie gloves on. He attacked Denver which is effectively no man's land. None of those militaries wanted to be "that guy" and start a war none of them wanted because they missed a GW or they hit him and ended up messing up someone else's sector of the city.

And my point stands. He would have ruined Washington in a day. And then the next provisional capital. And the next. And so on. I have no doubt in the world about that.

BTW, the word rampage means nothing. School shootings have been headlined as rampages. But none of them resulted in the destruction of a city. It was in the context of a news report. Suprise! The media embellishes. Who'd have guessed?

QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 26 2008, 03:24 AM) *
I played 1st Ed. ED for years.

I don't believe you.

No one who played it for years could get so much of the setting, the rules, really everything as wrong as you have in this thread.

So either you're lying, or an idiot. Given the sum total of this thread, one seems more likely to me.
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 11:26 AM
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I played ED when the first edition came out in German. No other sourcebook was out by then. We had two of the Obsidimen, and they were not very amused when the race sourcebook came out and made them sexless. One switched to T'skrang afterwards.

I saw when the talent knacks were introduced in the magic book, and game blance took a hit (Spell riposte anyone?).

We reached about 10th circle when the campaign ended, including some multi-talenting and multiclassing (My human wizard had some nethermancer circles as well, and threading talents of the other traditions.

Spells had short ranges. And spells were slow - in SR, you could cast several more in the same time frame. A number of spells used by SR mages were not present (attribute boosts, f.e.), and some of the spells worked differently too (permament spells, or "duration" spells, not sustained.

(Going from memory of the sessions over 10 years ago, I think an ED round was 10 seconds, compared to a SR1/2 round of 3 to 5 seconds, and even raw casting, an ED caster could not equal the spell casting speed of a SR mage. The differences got even worse once reaction enhancers came into play (through spell or talent). Another example why one should not blindly transfer ED stuff to SR.)

Now, I would say I am surprised to see you stooping to personal attacks, but that would be lieing.

I do find it hilarious that you take offense at the SR treatment of L.A., yet blindly defend SR's take on GDs here. What about using some of that tisted logic and "since it was written, it is true, so let's find a reason for it" to the L.A. Water?
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the_dunner
post Feb 26 2008, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE ("Terms of Service")
1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

Personal attacks are a violation of the Dumpshock Terms of Service. They will not be tolerated from any parties regardless of the situation. The moderators have been forced to closely watch this thread for some time due to the attitudes being taken by users in it. We don't like having to closely watch a 12+ page thread. If further violations of the Terms of Service show up in this thread, it will immediately be closed.
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Kremlin KOA
post Feb 26 2008, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE (swirler @ Feb 25 2008, 02:22 AM) *
my point is, he is dead

"And the matrix memory crystal died with him
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Kremlin KOA
post Feb 26 2008, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Feb 25 2008, 02:56 AM) *
Yes, but I'm (more and more) getting a feeling you don't really know how (or why) he died, or you wouldn't be bringing it up. It's kind of funny, though. Thanks for the chuckle. I don't really have a dog in the "dragons are stupid" versus "dragons are uber" fight, but I can't help but grin a little at the "They aren't too powerful, Dunkie's dead!" stuff.


It does prove the whole 'Dev protection is not absolute' angle

Or are you going to say Dunkie decided to suicide, despite the Dev's plans, just to get back at them?
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Critias
post Feb 26 2008, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Feb 26 2008, 07:56 AM) *
It does prove the whole 'Dev protection is not absolute' angle

Or are you going to say Dunkie decided to suicide, despite the Dev's plans, just to get back at them?

But Dev protection is absolute. It's not like some secret killer made it through the Dev protection. Dunkie offed himself. It wasn't an external threat. It wasn't some normal everyday mundane human schmuck with a fertilizer bomb. Nothing killed that Great Dragon accept a Great Dragon (that just happened to be himself).

Listing a suicide as a normal death statistic just doesn't make any sense, sorry. If you're reading a magazine article, lets say, on safety and crash statistics of a certain model of car...would you expect to see a death statistic that included people who happened to be sitting in the seat of that car when they shot themselves in the head? Is it a factor in the crash-rating of the automobile, just because someone died? It's not like that sort of death has anything to do with the anti-lock brakes not working, the car's center of balance being off so that it rolls during a sharp turn, or an airbag failing to deploy.

Dunkie killed himself. Pointing to his death and saying "See? Great Dragons die all the time!" is ridiculous.
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Fuchs
post Feb 26 2008, 01:18 PM
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You could make an argument that Dunkie saw no other way to achieve his goals, so he had to kill himself. In that sense, his failure to find alternatives killed him.
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Kremlin KOA
post Feb 26 2008, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 25 2008, 03:41 AM) *
10'000 of years spent sleeping - or dealing with rather non-tech or low-tech socieities - does not mean one is ready for the information highway age. On the contrary, older people are usually less able to cope with new things.


That is due to limitations o fthe human brain and that ti has trouble learning new things past a certain point. Immortals may not have such limits.

QUOTE
I simply do not buy the claim that just because dragons (or elves) have had experience handling isolated, primitive communities wielding pointy sticks and swords means that they are unbeatable in a society like Shadowruns. A society that has picked up the pace, and goes through changes on all levels, from technology to sociology, faster than anything we ever saw before.


Just a few things about the 4th world.
The Major nations in the 4th world had access to:
Cyberware (crystal limbs)
High end energy weapons (elementalists)
Tactical Air force regiments (thera and Throal each have a standing Air force, and the Mountain trolls also maintain many small, Viking style, Air forces.
WMDs (call forth the maelstrom)
Sudden reinforcements (call forth the army of Decay)
Tanks and similar (Horrors)
Radio communications (spells)
Non visual sensing systems (spells)
Technological sensors (artificer)

QUOTE
Of course, now will come the "but those are immortal elves and dragons, they are simply gods" line of reasoning.

Nope, now will come the 'Earthdawn is nothing like the rome and grece you know' line of reasoning
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