What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? Options

[Fuchs]

Yeah, "tactical air force" - flying ships you mean. And where's the progress? It took us 40 years to go from military airships to jets in the 20th century. Another 20 years and guns were replaced with missiles.

Cyberware - ditto. How fast does crystall stuff progress? How industrialised is its production?

Same for the production of said high-end energy weapons. How many, how fast, and how much progress?

For all those ED savants: If ED was a civilisation on par with the modern, industrialised world, why didn't it progress much further and faster? Where's the SOTA? The rapid advancement?

And how did it almost completely vanish just a few thousand years ago so that we did not find anything from them, even though we found lots of ruins from all ages, and skeletons from all time epochs. No lizardmen skeletons, no windlings, no orks, trolls, whatever.

Did someone go over the world at the start of the 5th age, and wipe all traces off?

ED is a cheap, tacked on "history" of SR that does not really make any sense at all.

[Kremlin KOA]

I like Sinner's take (and given that he works on SR...) that GW's "godzilla rampage" was just what he wanted you to see. Some people seem to have glossed over this, and it is perfectly reasonable.

As much as I hate agreeing with Synner, I have to give him full credit for providing the real deal this time

[Fuchs]

Yeah, and he did prepare that all in the time it took him to fly from Washington D.C. to Denver.

[Kremlin KOA]

Yeah, "tactical air force" - flying ships you mean. And where's the progress? It took us 40 years to go from military airships to jets in the 20th century. Another 20 years and guns were replaced with missiles.

In case you have forgotten in ED tghey had just recovered from a near extinction level event. Our best minds predict several centuries of recovery from such an event before our current civilisation could make fast progress

aand as to the flhying ships, well use a spirit with a movement style power and you get high speed flying ships

Cyberware - ditto. How fast does crystall stuff progress? How industrialised is its production?

craftsmen make it, true, but they can knock it up fairly rapidly. And it is more than comparable to 2070 tech SR cyberarms. Hell the basic model gives matching Agility reaction and body scores, and makes the average human stronger than an average troll. Not too shabby?

Same for the production of said high-end energy weapons. How many, how fast, and how much progress?

there were enough for about 1-2% of the population to have them. How many Jet fighters does the US have?

For all those ED savants: If ED was a civilisation on par with the modern, industrialised world, why didn't it progress much further and faster? Where's the SOTA? The rapid advancement?

Look at above near extinction level event. Also ED Magetech had progressed to the stage of ressurection devices capable of being used by anybody. SR can't match that in the medtech field

And how did it almost completely vanish just a few thousand years ago so that we did not find anything from them, even though we found lots of ruins from all ages, and skeletons from all time epochs. No lizardmen skeletons, no windlings, no orks, trolls, whatever.

Did someone go over the world at the start of the 5th age, and wipe all traces off?

ED is a cheap, tacked on "history" of SR that does not really make any sense at all.

1: Thera sank, the evidence left is in myth and legend.
2: In australia Kaers have reappeared, apparently they had been sent into the astral for the duration of the 5th age.
3: Many IEs made damn sure that a large part fo the history was forgotten
4: most of that tech was mased on magic and used materials that just cannot exist during a downcycle. other items were hidden away, such as dragons.
5: we have found very little of pre babylonian civilisation, even though babylonian records talk about much older civilisations.
6: windlings are in Paranormal critters of Europe
7: we recently unearthed a dwarf skeletion IRL (although the media dubbed it a hobbit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) )
8: how exactly would you, right now, with your real life resources, identify a magical sword?

[Kremlin KOA]

But Dev protection is absolute. It's not like some secret killer made it through the Dev protection. Dunkie offed himself. It wasn't an external threat. It wasn't some normal everyday mundane human schmuck with a fertilizer bomb. Nothing killed that Great Dragon accept a Great Dragon (that just happened to be himself).

Listing a suicide as a normal death statistic just doesn't make any sense, sorry. If you're reading a magazine article, lets say, on safety and crash statistics of a certain model of car...would you expect to see a death statistic that included people who happened to be sitting in the seat of that car when they shot themselves in the head? Is it a factor in the crash-rating of the automobile, just because someone died? It's not like that sort of death has anything to do with the anti-lock brakes not working, the car's center of balance being off so that it rolls during a sharp turn, or an airbag failing to deploy.

Dunkie killed himself. Pointing to his death and saying "See? Great Dragons die all the time!" is ridiculous.

So? in the end, the Devs killed Dunk. That is true of every canonical death in the setting. From the biggest dragon ot the smallest dwarf. All get the same dev protection. They are protected until it seems more interesting to kill them

[Kremlin KOA]

Yeah, and he did prepare that all in the time it took him to fly from Washington D.C. to Denver.

Why not. If you assume at least a basic level of knowledge about the world of the time, it is quite reasonable for a being who can watch 30 trid screens at once and understand them all to think up plans thta fast

If you don't assume that level of knowledge, how did he find Denver? How did he know which part of the world he came out in?

[Fuchs]

Why not. If you assume at least a basic level of knowledge about the world of the time, it is quite reasonable for a being who can watch 30 trid screens at once and understand them all to think up plans thta fast

If you don't assume that level of knowledge, how did he find Denver? How did he know which part of the world he came out in?

Some half-baked dev fiat, like the entire plot.

[Fuchs]

1: Thera sank, the evidence left is in myth and legend.
2: In australia Kaers have reappeared, apparently they had been sent into the astral for the duration of the 5th age.
3: Many IEs made damn sure that a large part fo the history was forgotten
4: most of that tech was mased on magic and used materials that just cannot exist during a downcycle. other items were hidden away, such as dragons.
5: we have found very little of pre babylonian civilisation, even though babylonian records talk about much older civilisations.
6: windlings are in Paranormal critters of Europe
7: we recently unearthed a dwarf skeletion IRL (although the media dubbed it a hobbit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) )
8: how exactly would you, right now, with your real life resources, identify a magical sword?

There would be ruins around, and skeletons all over the world. There weren't.

A magical sword? I wouldn't. I would, however, assume a archeologist would be able to notice that there's something odd finding an iron or even steel sword dating back to the stone age.

All traces of the 4th world gone? Without a trace? for millenias?

"It's magic." strikes again.

[Ryu]

It is a fantasy game. Those who do not like fantasy should look elsewhere.

[Particle_Beam]

Shadowrun is a roleplaying game set in the dystopian near-future of 2070, a world where cyberpunk meets magic.

[Fuchs]

It is a fantasy game. Those who do not like fantasy should look elsewhere.

And those who play a fantasy game shouldn't try to use the fantasy game to base their justifications for an event in another game on.

[Herald of Verjig...]

I am going by YotC.58-59. GW exited the DC rift New Years eve (that is 12/24 and I am assuming in the evening or that night as the witness was there "partying") and news coverage of the rampage started at 12/25 00:21:13, or shortly after midnight. (Actually, that is the timestamp for when the transcript of events got posted on the matrix, so it may have been over before midnight, making it the same day.) That is minutes to hours later, not days later.

Fine, so I misremembered the timestamp. As for the not-quite-explicit talk of support (and the whole thing of why only Azzies fought back), YotC page 62, much is in Shadowtalk, but some is official known setting history. Also see Pipeline's input on page 63. Actually, if you would just bother to read "Ghostwalker 1, Denver 0" to the end of the Ghost Stories section you will find a lot indicating pre-planning of some sort, which either means that a) he could chat with someone from the metaplane; b) Dunkie expected this behavior and set up the groundwork; or c) something else, and while I knew I had a third possible option when I starting writing point b, I lost it entirely since then.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif) Where are you pulling this from? You may as well say any metahuman is going to fall in love with and join him, too.

I thought I read something more explicit, but I will cite Shadows of NA page 78, comment by Firelight until I find what I remembered. Toss in the "terribly loyal to Ghostwalker" bit in Psyche's comment on 75, and the character definition that Ghostwalker is the most potent conjurer of all great dragons, and you start to see a trend, but I still think there was a more explicit statement.

[Fuchs]

Also see Pipeline's input on page 63. Actually, if you would just bother to read "Ghostwalker 1, Denver 0" to the end of the Ghost Stories section you will find a lot indicating pre-planning of some sort, which either means that a) he could chat with someone from the metaplane; b) Dunkie expected this behavior and set up the groundwork; or c) something else, and while I knew I had a third possible option when I starting writing point b, I lost it entirely since then.

If such a level of foresight is possible, why don't the GDs rule the world?

[swirler]

Right, and I'm just saying "mentioning a suicide as a casualty is kind of a silly way to try and argue something."

suicide? I don't remember it being that way. maybe I missed part of the info or it's just been that long.My point still stand though, they can still die and as a general rule GD's are more plot points to use than anything.

*points up* My point was that they can die, not whether or not they can be killed, though I was unaware of the suicide angle. where was this explained? I would be interested in reading it.

[Herald of Verjig...]

If such a level of foresight is possible, why don't the GDs rule the world?

I thought you already believed that they do.
Also, I think Earthdawn had some fallout still of when the dragons did try to rule over all other name givers. Toss in that even greats sleep when mana drops and all the bits of angry IEs going hunting in the 5th age, and many of the ones that lived have probably concluded that it is not in their best interests to rule the world.

[Fuchs]

I thought you already believed that they do.

No, I think that they do not rule the world, so I think they cannot be as powerful as some people make them out to be.

Also, I think Earthdawn had some fallout still of when the dragons did try to rule over all other name givers. Toss in that even greats sleep when mana drops and all the bits of angry IEs going hunting in the 5th age, and many of the ones that lived have probably concluded that it is not in their best interests to rule the world.

And they assume that the IEs won't hunt them anyway?

[swirler]

If such a level of foresight is possible, why don't the GDs rule the world?

Jealousy? Ego? I'm sure you've noticed how hard it is for humans (metas) to work together in RL or in games. Sure they band together if threatened but afterwards, bicker bicker bicker. The same would be true with dragons, only magnified. Imagine that kind of raw power and the ego behind it. I've always figured they have little or no trust between then. You also have to figure some of if not all the dragons think of metahumanity as "beneath their concern". They might see us as ants, or even less than ants. Tools to be used and disgarded, but that's about it. You also have to consider they have a longer view of things than we do.
They probably know that should they just step in and rule the world by force, then what? They would all be staring across from each other waiting for one of them to screw up so they can tear his/her throat out and then go back to staring until the next one falls. Granted that is most likely what they are doing now, but less openly.

Dragons play chess, not Global Thermonuclear War.

[Herald of Verjig...]

And they assume that the IEs won't hunt them anyway?

Not especially, but Sirrug took some time to eat IEs that had been involved in downcycle hunting. As the aftereffect, IEs are less numerous, GDs are less numerous, and mostly the ones that are left are the GDs that didn't irritated the elves as much and the elves that didn't try to kill of the dragons.

[Malicant]

If such a level of foresight is possible, why don't the GDs rule the world?

Dragons don't have a common agenda. As I tried to explain to you, they don't have a society. Just rules how to avoid killing each other. How do you rule the world, if 30 other dudes disagree on you ruling the world? Not that easy.

There would be ruins around, and skeletons all over the world. There weren't.

A magical sword? I wouldn't. I would, however, assume a archeologist would be able to notice that there's something odd finding an iron or even steel sword dating back to the stone age.

All traces of the 4th world gone? Without a trace? for millenias?

"It's magic." strikes again.

No kidding, it's magic. In a game about magic. Now, that comes as a surprise and can certainly support your claims.

How many ruins and skeletons exist from around 15000 BC or so? How many Bones too big to be human would be tossed away a "huge extinct bear", or "misshapen midget"? The magical sword would stop beeing magic in the 5th world and after some time it would be rusted debris. Also, ED is not stone age. More like bronze age and I don't remember much on the topic of metalurgy in ED, so there might never have been any steel swords to rise any eyebrows. Or if they were, the test dating it way back before steel was invented would possibly be declared faulty and it was dated to a time more fitting. Most interesting is, that something like this happens now and then in real world archeology, when stuff is found that cannot have been possibly manufactured at the time it was supposed to be from.

The traces of the 4th world did not go away without a trace either, but everything tied to magic shifted out of reality (or something) and starts reappearing in SR, like the Deep Lacuna in LA for instance, and all the ruins they start digging up in east europe (yes, that is Bersaive, all right) that have not been there a few decades back.

Argueing on the topic of how realistic fantasy is so funny. You can explain everything in-world and nothing can be really disproven with real world logic. But people sure try hard. Why exactly are you playing a fantasy game like SR, when you seem to dislike it so much?

[Grinder]

There would be ruins around, and skeletons all over the world. There weren't.

A magical sword? I wouldn't. I would, however, assume a archeologist would be able to notice that there's something odd finding an iron or even steel sword dating back to the stone age.

All traces of the 4th world gone? Without a trace? for millenias?

"It's magic." strikes again.

That has neever been explained, since nobody knows what happened at the end of the 4th and the beginning of the 5th world.
Ah yeah, forgot: the GD and IE know it. It's their fault.

[Fuchs]

Argueing on the topic of how realistic fantasy is so funny. You can explain everything in-world and nothing can be really disproven with real world logic. But people sure try hard. Why exactly are you playing a fantasy game like SR, when you seem to dislike it so much?

A big appeal of Shadowrun for me the fact that it's not just modern world meets magic and fantasy, but also that it is magic and fantasy meets modern world. Just as humanity suddenly has to deal with spirits, magic, and creatures thought myth, said creatures and spirits suddenly have to deal with technology they don't know about, and a humanity with more options than they know about.

What I dislike very much is that in many aspects in canon, the modern part of this mix is not given its due. It's almost always magic trumping technology, and almost never some magical critter discovering that his hide is not as invulnerable anymore as it thought.

It's very one-sided, in my opinion, and GW would have been a perfect example to balance it out. He could have been the poster boy for "Hah, world, tremble at my migh... what's that? a flying metal shack? Where's the spells keeping it aloft? And what's that moving thin.... "

Instead he was yet another cheap plot device/dev pet.

[Jhaiisiin]

Okay, so here's the one thing that you seem to disregard, Fuchs.

Technology has rules, limitations, defined methods of operations. They obey the existing, known laws of physical reality.

Magic has this nasty tendancy to obey metaphysical laws, which flat out ignore or break the existing, known laws of physical reality. That's why it keeps trumping. Until Technology can match what Magic can do, point for point, then Magic will likely always have an edge. That's true in this setting and many others.

Hell, you don't even have to use "magic" as the comparison. Use mutations, superpowers or any number of other things. Check the multitude of other sources out there and you'll see the same recurring theme. Tech is good, Magic/powers are better. I'm not sure it's your intent, but you're tearing down SR as if they're the worst/only offender of this, and this pattern has been going on for decades even before SR was a concept, let alone a game.

[Fuchs]

Shadowrun, on the game mechanic level, is balanced. Magic does not trump tech there. A group with magic and no technology is weaker than one that has both, and arguably on par (as far as sucking goes) with a group that has no magic, but hacking and cyber). For every advantage magic provides, tech provides an advantage. Same for disadvantages.

So, I see no reason why the background should lean so heavily towards magic being top dog.

[Jhaiisiin]

I've seen it go both ways, though. Using my own group as an example, the GM we have loves running the magic side of the game. I tend to be the more tech-savy guy in the group. That said, even against drones, spirits and goons, we virtually walk all over the competition. Our (now retired) heavy hitters were nigh unstoppable, just because of *how* we worked together. Technology wasn't doing anything to even slow us down, let alone stop us. That group comprised of a physad, mystic adept, an aspected mage and a full blown, spirit-focused, mage (my character). The characters were originally SR3, and we recently converted them to SR4 for a couple of one-shot games. They required over 600bp to make the conversion properly and keep them at the power level they'd achieved in pre-retirement. For the record, our GM tried to avoid completely overpowering scenarios, like multi-level initiate magical guards and such, though we occasionally did run into them.

Point is, that I've seen magic wreak havoc and run willy-nilly over tech. The only time I've seen the reverse is in SR3 when the chipped up Sam went 3 times before the mage even blinks. SR4 did away with that (which I'll STILL never understand, faster reflexes don't make you go AFTER everyone else), so now Mages can drop an entire group of mundanes in the blink of an eye before they're in any really serious danger.

EDIT: And the reason it leans so heavily towards magic is because the game designers decided that's what it should be, 20 years ago. They, however, realized some (like you) would REALLY dislike that, and so they included the lovely text that encouraged you as a GM to flat out ignore, change or improve upon any information/rules within the book. You don't like Magic being so powerful. We get that. Unfortunately, you're seemingly not in the majority, and all the ranting won't change anything. I respect your opinion on how you think things should be, even if I don't agree with it. There comes a point though, when someone needs to realize nothing will change and their own opinion won't sway others to their side. I think we passed that point about 6 pages ago.

[Particle_Beam]

Well, mundanes can also drop an entire group of mundanes in the blink of an eye before they're in any really serious danger. Throwing grenades or sending killer drones with their 4 initiative passes and wide burst fires will do the same. The same holds true for a group of awakened guys. They die the same way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)