What's the purpose of Ghostwalker?, The wizzworm doing what? Options

[Maelwys]

Is Feuerschwinge a Great Dragon, or simply an adult Dragon?

There's a difference between the two, and the difference seems to be quite big in regards to strength. Or she could simply be a younger Great Dragon who was SOL that day.

[Fuchs]

There are billions of people in the world. In SR, a tiny handful of these people are ancient beings who could chain-cast GGD-level spells if they wanted to. We're talking dead-raising, continent-leveling stuff. The only thing that stops them from unleashing this power on each other during their petty squabbles, escalating what is essentially family bickering to an Extinction Level Event, is the fact that if they did so then a hoard of Clive Barker's wet dreams would eat all of our souls, their's included.

Yeah, yeah, Dragons and Immoral Elves are gods, and the world is theirs, and only ome plot device make it actually appear as if the megacorps, governments and other powers had any influence. As I said, If I wanted to play Earthdawn or FR, I'd play ED or FR.

One of these extremely rare beings, possessing the element of surprise to accompany vastly superior (magical) firepower, can smash the fragmented and uncoordinated defenses of a sexpartite city. This is not a surprise.

Yeah, yeah, magic - the answer to all loopholes, all "it's cool even if it makes no sense sicne it's elven/dragon" ideas. Again, the idea that "extremely rare beings" can walk all over creation is straight from epic level D&D.

And, thus, when attacked by an (apparently) outside party the safest strategy is to retreat, gather intel, assess without engaging, and make damned sure that everyone else knows that the attackers aren't yours.

And then stomp the bug once you know it's not theirs. Still waiting on that.

And, yeah, Ghostwalker is a baddass. And he knows how to use Shock and Awe. He is an army unto himself, as any character of his stature should be. Would it be more acceptable if he was a giant cyborg crafted from the remains of dead cyborgs that constantly grafts new meat and metal to itself, essentially becoming bigger and more durable for every cybernetic corpse it adds to its structure?

A single being is said to be an army unto himself, no matter the "explanation", is stupid, improbable, and runs counter to anything related to modern thinking and experience. Again, we are talking Epic fantasy, where modern weapons and tactics are not existent.

Here's to the devs: Please make sure that Shdowrun does not become (in parts it already is) A mod for ED or D&D. It's not "Dragons & Elves". Again, it's not "Dragons & Elves".

[Fuchs]

I guess my Sixth World is big enough to encompass many elements. Megacorporations may be the top dogs in many areas, but there is still room for places to be controlled or heavily influenced by governments (nation-oriented or city-state variety), or a group of elven fanatics, or a Great Dragon or two, or even an anarchistic state or three.

Yes, big enough for that - some places. Usually wild places, and controlled by and through deals with the greater powers.

Not a whole bloody world run by dragons and elves, to the point of being able to push entire nations and megacorporations around by themselves.

[It trolls!]

Is Feuerschwinge a Great Dragon, or simply an adult Dragon?

There's a difference between the two, and the difference seems to be quite big in regards to strength. Or she could simply be a younger Great Dragon who was SOL that day.

Great Western and girlfriend of Kaltenstein, yet another German GD.

[Fortune]

Is Feuerschwinge a Great Dragon, or simply an adult Dragon?

She was (is?) a Great Dragon.

[Fuchs]

With Feuerschwinge being brought up, I alway compared her to Ghostwalker as an example of how wacky and unsubstantial the original German setting was. GW glides in through the rift, checks in at the reception and then goes on to take on a whole army. Feuerschwinge, also being a GD was brought down by some flak from our "We're a placeholder until a real army arrives" army, the Bundeswehr...
I haven't had a look at the Anti-Dragon Task Force thread but now I'm trying to put this in perspective again. How difficult should it be to kill a GD? How strong may such NPCs become, before their powerlevel leads them to ignore most of the world completely because noone could stop them from anything if they tried?

Anytime a single being faces the military and the military gets to bring its toys and numbers to bear, the single being should lose. Dragon violating our airspace? If it's still there by the time the squadron of intercetors arrives, it's dead. Dragon entering a no-flight zone? Dead. Dragon trying to take a city by itself? Dead.

Dragon flying, as an official SK flight? No problem. Dragon entering a no-flight zone, while a megacorp is pressuring the government, and SK-units are covering it? No problem. Dragon attacking a city, with an army at its back, and a plan that was prepared for a long time, pieces set up to click into place at the right moment, and the powers that be distracted elsewhere? Sure thing.

But Godzilla should die everytime he's sighted. No exception, not after 50 years of seeing a dozen Godzillas around. The world's militaries should not be writen off as so stupid as to be unable to master killing dragons after this time. It runs counter to all experience.

[Fortune]

Yeah, yeah, Dragons and Immoral Elves are gods, and the world is theirs, and only ome plot device make it actually appear as if the megacorps, governments and other powers had any influence. As I said, If I wanted to play Earthdawn or FR, I'd play ED or FR.

Funny, because we want to play Shadowrun, which does contain, and always has contained, Dragons and elves and dwarves and the like along with the Megacorps. It is the mix that makes the game special and unique. You sound like you'd be much more content with a purer cyberpunk game world than the one that Shadowrun portrays (and has always portrayed).

You have already admitted that you change canon in your games to fit your style. If you are willing to do that, why do you need to wish to ruin parts of the game world that other people like by having those parts excised? There is a wide and rich variety of material in the Sixth World for Players and GMs to pick and choose from. Why the need to arbitrarily limit other people's fun just because you personally don't like a certain aspect of that world (especially as you already change the setting in your game)?.

[DocTaotsu]

If I recall the Anti-Dragon taskforce is devoted to answering the by the rules question of how many Thor rounds can dance on the head of a dragon. People seem to have a problem with invincible dragons but not invincible megacorporations. It seems to me that taking down either is equally likely and the tools you use would be the same. This is largely because most of the GD's appear to be pretty tied up in corporate politics and power to begin with. They bleed, I'm sure they die, but I think killing one is probably about as likely as killing Ares. It could be done, but what would it be worth the cost? Do /you/ want to go clear out a GD's lair?


Uhm.. a world run by relics of the past? Isn't that half the fun of the Shadowrun setting? Strange and mysterious things beyond human understanding? No?

I have to agree with you Fortune. My Sixth world has always been a diverse setting. Everyones got a niche but no group or individual can truly lay claim to the whole of the world.

[KCKitsune]

I think the IM & GD were a hold over from FASA. They had a wankage factor the likes of which were disgusting to see! Let's list their two biggest money makers and their Editor's Avatars

Battletech: The Clans. These frakkers had better tech, better pilots, & better ships. The only reason the Inner Sphere had any chance was the writers thought to themselves: "Oh God we can't sell lots of minis if battles were 1 on 1... quick find some bullshit reason the IS people can win so we can have better sales!"

Shadowrun: Elves, Dragons, and the Great Ghost Dance. These frakkers can take nukes (why were the elves not nuked in the very beginning I have no clue... it would have served the assholes right), and laugh.

[Ophis]

Anytime a single being faces the military and the military gets to bring its toys and numbers to bear, the single being should lose. Dragon violating our airspace? If it's still there by the time the squadron of intercetors arrives, it's dead. Dragon entering a no-flight zone? Dead. Dragon trying to take a city by itself? Dead.

Dragon flying, as an official SK flight? No problem. Dragon entering a no-flight zone, while a megacorp is pressuring the government, and SK-units are covering it? No problem. Dragon attacking a city, with an army at its back, and a plan that was prepared for a long time, pieces set up to click into place at the right moment, and the powers that be distracted elsewhere? Sure thing.

But Godzilla should die everytime he's sighted. No exception, not after 50 years of seeing a dozen Godzillas around. The world's militaries should not be writen off as so stupid as to be unable to master killing dragons after this time. It runs counter to all experience.

But GW was not Godzilla. He was fighting guerilla war. Anything that came to the field that could hurt him was eliminated or he plled a vanishing act.

Plus he didn't take Denver by force, he appeared demonstrated his power, and attacked things he wanted rid of, all the while cutting deals behind the scene and buying off enough people to get what he wanted. He offered a Denver that actually functioned (by removing a faction from the table). This made the countries who stayed happy as they all hate the Azzies. We have no proof but it's possible he made deals with corps as well, but then Denver wasn't a major place for any of them, he didn't destroy its smuggler haven status so what do they lose?

Corps don't control the world in SR. No one does. There's lots of people who think they should, maybe lots with the power to do it, but none of them have the stones to stick their neck out. Anyone who does that gets their head cut off. Ghostwalker took a city, and in title only, yes he shook Denver up but then it mostly returned to satus quo.

[DocTaotsu]

If everyone hates IM's and GD's because they're monolithic and all powerful why don't you all hate megacorps too? Shouldn't the fact that 20 dudes sitting in a room pretty much run their own country upset you?

IM's, Megacorp's, GD's, Trolls with Panther Assault cannons. These are all just set pieces that exist so you don't have to have a degree in political calculus to figure out what happens between games.

[Fuchs]

Funny, because we want to play Shadowrun, which does contain, and always has contained, Dragons and elves and dwarves and the like along with the Megacorps. It is the mix that makes the game special and unique. You sound like you'd be much more content with a purer cyberpunk game world than the one that Shadowrun portrays (and has always portrayed).

You have already admitted that you change canon in your games to fit your style. If you are willing to do that, why do you need to wish to ruin parts of the game world that other people like by having those parts excised? There is a wide and rich variety of material in the Sixth World for Players and GMs to pick and choose from. Why the need to arbitrarily limit other people's fun just because you personally don't like a certain aspect of that world (especially as you already change the setting in your game)?.

Funny, I see a world of difference between a setting where everyone has a niche, and a setting ruled by dragons and immortal elves.

I like elves, dwarves and dragons as part of a cyberpunk world. I like fantasy, and dark magic, in Shadowrun.

I don't like a world that's basically fantasy, with some make-up trying to look like cyberpunk. And a world where dragons can rampage without consequence, and where the world is controlled by dragons and immortal elves is just that - a fantasy world with guns instead of swords. There's nothing to pick or choose from since nothing matters at all in a world with singel-being armies, and elves able to chain cast GGD level spells.

From my point of view, it's you who's singelmindedly trying to ruin a setting, and wanting to drive out anything but the great dragons and elves as powers.

[KCKitsune]

If everyone hates IM's and GD's because they're monolithic and all powerful why don't you all hate megacorps too? Shouldn't the fact that 20 dudes sitting in a room pretty much run their own country upset you?

IM's, Megacorp's, GD's, Trolls with Panther Assault cannons. These are all just set pieces that exist so you don't have to have a degree in political calculus to figure out what happens between games.

I can stomach Mega Corps about a googolplex times more than I can stomach IE's and GD's. At least a Mega Corp is reasonable. They can't destroy the world... not really. That is, of course, based on the notion that Megas don't have a lot of nukes.

[Fuchs]

If everyone hates IM's and GD's because they're monolithic and all powerful why don't you all hate megacorps too? Shouldn't the fact that 20 dudes sitting in a room pretty much run their own country upset you?

IM's, Megacorp's, GD's, Trolls with Panther Assault cannons. These are all just set pieces that exist so you don't have to have a degree in political calculus to figure out what happens between games.

Because megacorps are not monolithic. They are divided into sub-corps, and shares, and execs who compete with each other. And they play by modern rules - in a modern, capitalistic world where we have progress, and technology.

And again - I have nothing against a dragon ruling a megacorp. I have issues with a dragon acting as if this was the forgotten realms, where no one ever invented AAA, missiles, and dozens of other heavy weapons, and getting away with it without falling to said modern weapons.

[Fortune]

Funny, I see a world of difference between a setting where everyone has a niche, and a setting ruled by dragons and immortal elves.

I've read all the books. Can you point me to the places where it illustrates Elves and Dragons ruling the world? In my reading of the books, it appears that they have their place, alongside a lot of other entities.

From my point of view, it's you who's singelmindedly trying to ruin a setting, and wanting to drive out anything but the great dragons and elves as powers.

Are you fucking kidding me? It is you that is pleading with the developers to change and remove certain parts of the core setting, not I. How am I ruining anyone else's game by using the setting as written? If you choose to change the setting in your games, that's fine and more power to you. But you are advocating wholesale change to the setting merely because you personally don't like it and don't want anyone else to use it, and that is what I take exception with.

[Fuchs]

What I am asking for is less Dragons in power. Make them - as you said they were - a niche. We have Great Dragons all over the world. We've got Denver ruled by one, another one on the council in Tir, one rules a megacorp, another runs the guerllias on the Philipines, and Amazonia has a great one too in a position of power. China got one, Japan, and I am sure I forgot a number of other powerful greats. One Dragon even became president of the UCAS for an evening.

Would it ruin the setting to have more areas where you can swing a cat without hitting a dragon in power? Lowfyr alone has its minions present almost everywhere. You don't need to add a dragon, especially a great dragon, to every plot or area.

[Synner]

Feuerschwinge was/is a Great Dragon (for those of you up in arms about proliferation of GDs there's only a couple of dozen of them to 7 billion of "us" in the Sixth World - and at least 3 of them have been offed in the past 60 years). She woke up under the SOX to find herself and her lair eggs irradiated by the Cattenon disaster, hurting and driven almost insane she went on rampage and was apparently shot down by German military. When her mate Kaltenstein tried to rush in to help her, Nebelherr and Lofwyr stopped him (though their fight was interpreted as something else). I believe the stuff we did with the "German greats" in DotSW makes them far more interesting and well-rounded than they were before (ie. Schwartzkopf, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge, and Kaltenstein).

As for Ghostwalker, he definitely did not do a Godzilla on Denver - unless I failed to see the movie where Godzilla slinks around hitting specific targets and then vanishing. Ghostwalker performed a series of hit and run attacks where he brought to bear his considerable magical talents to level a half-dozen buildings (which with the exception of the first strike on the teocalli and the Aztech building weren't particularly high priority military targets).

Ghostwalker beat down a few aircraft, helicopters and ground military units - hardly unbelievable. The perspective from which the various sections of Ghost Stories are narrated doesn't allow us to see if what quickened, anchored, or sustained spells he's using to protect himself and reactively target attackers. You don't see that half the times he's attacking a location it's actually an illusion of himself and he's actually standing invisible behind the attackers tearing them to shreds. You don't see the dozens of powerful great form city/hearth/nature spirits discretely racing around behind enemy lines applying Accident, Concealment, Fear, and Confusion on his opponents, seeding chaos among targets, interfering with communications, causing panic in cockpits and command centers increasing reaction times drastically - every time he strikes (and the media have no way of knowing since the effects could be attributed to Ghostwalker himself). In fact, you see exactly what Ghostwalker wanted people to see - a great dragon single-handedly beating the crap out of puny human forces.

[Fuchs]

I've read all the books. Can you point me to the places where it illustrates Elves and Dragons ruling the world? In my reading of the books, it appears that they have their place, alongside a lot of other entities.

They even retconned the great ghost dance to have been the result of immortal elves' meddling. Couldn't have been a totem influencing the shamans, or - what a thought! - humans discovering the magic by themselves. Nope, had to have immortal elven involvement in the single most important event that changed the political landscape of northern america.

Really, can we please see IEs and GDs cut down so they stand beside, and not on top of the rest of the powers, so we really have niches and a mix plot and powerwise?

[Fuchs]

Feuerschwinge was/is a Great Dragon (for those of you up in arms about proliferation of GDs there's only a couple of dozen of them to 7 billion of "us" in the Sixth World - and at least 3 of them have been offed in the past 60 years). She woke up under the SOX to find herself and her lair eggs irradiated by the Cattenon disaster, hurting and driven almost insane she went on rampage and was apparently shot down by German military. When her mate Kaltenstein tried to rush in to help her, Nebelherr and Lofwyr stopped him (though their fight was interpreted as something else). I believe the stuff we did with the "German greats" in DotSW makes them far more interesting and well-rounded than they were before (ie. Schwartzkopf, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge, and Kaltenstein).

As for Ghostwalker, he definitely did not do a Godzilla on Denver - unless I failed to see the movie where Godzilla slinks around hitting specific targets and then vanishing. Ghostwalker performed a series of hit and run attacks where he brought to bear his considerable magical talents to level a half-dozen buildings (which with the exception of the first strike on the teocalli and the Aztech building weren't particularly high priority military targets).

Ghostwalker beat down a few aircraft, helicopters and ground military units - hardly unbelievable. The perspective from which the various sections of Ghost Stories are narrated doesn't allow us to see if what quickened, anchored, or sustained spells he's using to protect himself and reactively target attackers. You don't see that half the times he's attacking a location it's actually an illusion of himself and he's actually standing invisible behind the attackers tearing them to shreds. You don't see the dozens of powerful great form city/hearth/nature spirits discretely racing around behind enemy lines applying Accident, Concealment, Fear, and Confusion on his opponents, seeding chaos among targets, interfering with communications, causing panic in cockpits and command centers increasing reaction times drastically - every time he strikes (and the media have no way of knowing since the effects could be attributed to Ghostwalker himself). In fact, you see exactly what Ghostwalker wanted people to see - a great dragon single-handedly beating the crap out of puny human forces.

And we don't see modern military sensors not caring about invisibility at all. We don't see expert systems running drone nets, and calculating the best responses. We don't see human forces who fit in with what we know of humans in our world, and our talent to find better ways to kill stuff in record time. We don't see human military actually having more than a single digit IQ, and having the training and gear to handle magical threats - despite even security being challenged by magical threats all the time through shadowrunners.

Please, if those tricks were so effective against the military, then shadowrunners would be unstoppable since they use the exact same tricks, just on a smaller scale.

Great form spirits, concealment, confusion, illusions - all this is, sorry to burst your bubble, nothing new. Heck, whenever a GM here complains about a mage running amok over his corpsec, we've got people listing dozens of ways to deal with it, but when it's a dragon walking all over the military, we're just supposed to nod?

Get real. The only reason GW got away with his stuff is that Dragons are the devs' pets. If runners would have tired such stuff against corpsec, they'd have ended up dead. But then, they lack the "I am a dragon, so my enemy at once loses all braincells, and all competence" aura of author's protection.

[Ryu]

I like dragons and IEs. I like subtle ED connections, makes me feel like I´m in on a secret. Yet neither has played any significant role in our SR world, excepting the Harlequin campaigns. That was SR2, right? SR without its magic is only cyberpunk, and I do not want dragons portrayed in the way of the Knights of Krynn-series (as fun as that was).

As for destroying the Denver setting, I think its quite the opposite. Real-world precedents suggest that several nations should not share one town for long. "Benevolent" guidance makes it more believeable.

[Synner]

The military are trying to protect the entire city while Ghostwalker is striking particular locations apparently at random - none of those location are hardened military targets by the way.

So first the military have to realize where the attack is going on, and mobilize units to get the target - all under spirit and magical interference - and on a scale and force that exceeds any tactical use of magic the military are familiar with. Five (illusory) sightings of Ghostwalker appearing and attacking at different points in the city zone where his real target is should send units scrambling off to the wrong locations, while GW waits outside the target in (ultra)Masked human form. When the military are spread out enough, he orders his great form spirit army to start interfering with communications, causing disruption, and seeding chaos among the units that have been mobilized and the command centers. Force 20 Accidents, Movement, Bind, Concealment, Fear. he then shifts to his draconic form ("appearing from nowhere"), and starts in on the actual target with the help of a handful of elementals and other spirits.

This isn't a standup fight. This is the magical equivalent of 10 Al Qaeda cells running around downtown Manhattan throwing grenades and shooting up the place while the real terrorist sneak a dirty bomb into a specific building. The military's chances are about the same too. They have very few options to counter a concerted guerrilla campaign of this type (and fewer still to counter magic this heavy). This isn't battlefield magic or spirits of a power range combat magicians are used to. No one has experienced anything on this scale since the Great Ghost Dance, and even then it was human-grade magic. This isn't even dragon magic, this is a Great Dragon that dates back to the Second World showing off his powers and his intellect. Of course the military have contingency plans in place, they're just not going to be enough.

So "get real", seriously? In a surprise attack and guerrilla tactics the tactics described above things do make a difference (which is why shadowrunners do use them when stealth isn't a factor) and on the level a GD can bring to bear they make even more of a difference. Add Concealment to the (Improved) Invisibility mix. Use add Masking and Extended Masking in the double digits.

A Force 20 Great Form using Accident, Binding, Concealment, Confusion, Storm, and any number of other powers against a drone network, command post, let alone mundane soldiers in the field is going to cause major disruption/damage - multiple spirits are going to do even more. Now add multiple such cumulative effects and factor in that Ghostwalker will be adding his own spellcasting abilities to the mix. Any field magic defenses or spirits metahuman military magicians will be deploying are going to be overwhelmed even before the mundanes are hit.

[Fuchs]

I think you have no idea how fast troops are mobilised - especially after the first dragon attack, and especially after decades of shadowrunners trying those exact tactics. Again, if GW can get away with this in Denver, then any runner group could do it to high-security installations. Given that we have multiple ways to counter runners and their spirit platoons, I find it unbelievable that the military, especially a military as savy in magic as Aztlan, would be unable to cope with this sort of assault. What are their blood mages doing? Did their jaguar guards sleep through the magical threat training? Where were all those spirits and tech and people who scare experienced runners? Taking a break, and some fresh recruits halfway into basic training were replacing them, all over town?

Did everyone refuse to learn from stuff people pulled in the 2050s? Did no military every analyse the attack on North California by the Tir?

I say "cheap plot device" to the Denver incident. With enemies such as those the armies there were portrayed as, a shadowrunner team should fear nothing.

The whole thing reminds me of a campaign with two GMs, where one GM has the Therans be the over-powerful masters of magic, capturing the entire adventuring group with ease singlehandedly, and the next lets the same adventuring group slaughter their way through a theran fortress after breaking out of their cells. It just does not fit together.

[Grinder]

They may not be tied, but the more important thing is that the owners of the licenses for both games are the same people. Their licensees are just different. So Red Brick or Living Room or whoever has been licensed to publish ED now probably doesn't have the authority to tell Catalyst what do do with Rob's pocket lint.

The Line Developers of both RedBrick and Catalyst are in contact regularly. And of course every new ED book published by RedBrick has to be approved by FASA (who still owns the rights of ED), so I guess it's doubtful at best that a sourcebook will be released that contradicts SR canon (like in: "bang! all dragons are dead!").

[Herald of Verjig...]

Shadowrunners do tend to do things like this to high security installations. By the books, shadowrunners aren't a big part of the population, and tend to want money for doing such things, so there is usually a nuyen motive and a clear backer.

Since your mind is already cemented and no amount of reasoning can change it, all I'll say about Denver is that you seem to be missing out on the strongly implied (and possibly even stated, I don't remember if there is any part about that) detail that the dragon had already made deals with the other factions in the city. It's fairly obvious from one of the later sections that he had post-Azzie plans already written up that the other factions would enjoy, but since his stance on smuggling is "pay your taxes however you get the cred," this also suggests that he had made similar arrangements with non-governmental power groups in the city.
If you do indeed have an imagination, try imagining what kinds of covert ways the other nations in Denver could annoy the Azzie sector without looking like an open act of war. Then imagine what would happen if all the gangs had forewarning that there would be a very large distraction. Then throw a dragon at the main magical threat in the sector with a few other appearances for the news crews to get a good photo.

[Fuchs]

Which should have been in the books, instead of a poster story for "dragons are gods and untouchable". And still does not explain the stupidity of the military forces there, and their apparent lack of experience with regards to magic, as well as the lack of spirits and (blood) mages on their side.

As I said - if such preparations were made, then it fits. But they were not mentioned, and even Synner gave the tired and internally incosistent "the Dragon uses MAGIC" excuse.

For a corp/nation whose elite troops have 2 magic capable people per squad, Aztlan sure was written like they were re-enacting the civil war of 2017 and playing the clueless americans.