Is Horizon evil enough?, is Google cyberpunk Options

[Cardul]

I guess I look at things differently...everyone seems to focus on the open "nice guy" ness of Horizon. Me, I look at one thing, and that tells me they are not nice guys: They are a AAA Corp. To me, not matter what, that tells me that they are NOT nice guys. You do not get to be one of the 10 biggest corps in the world, wielding that much power, by being "nice guys."

P2.0 is an example. As someone pointed out, it is a great marketing tool. However, how much non-market info do they get through it? How invasive is P2.0 into the people who are on its PAN? Think about that a moment.

Now, think about this: they have managed to convince Runners to broadcast their Runs. Complete to the point where they even do image consulting when hiring a Runner! Why is this possible? because, when all is said and done, what happens on Corp property...is only under Corp Jurisdiction. Even police can watch it, and not feel bad about not rushing right out t stop the runners..because if the Corps dn't ask for local law enforcement help, and the runners aren't geeking people in the streets after they escape the extra-territorial corp enclaves, the local law can't d anything(because, no crime has been reported.) Also, well, it is better to just negotiate the contract then to not, and have them broadcast your run without a delay.("What? You say we used your footage without your consent and it nearly got you killed? Well..why don't you just give us your SIN, and our lawyer will talk with your lawyer. Oh..you don't have a SIN? Well, you know..undocumented immigrants really don't have the same rights in this regard...Now, if you would prefer to negotiate a contract, I am sure we can make sure arrangements, such as, say, time delays....")

The other thing is, really..we really do NOT know much about them. We know they have the capability to be cruel and vicious..they are a AAA, after all, we know they have access to information, conceivably, a lot of information.And we knw the biggest names in the Shadows don't know much about them. Which, is another good point: The people at Jackpoint seem to not know much about Horizon. Is it that Horizon is just very good at keeping its secrets? Could it be that its system, thanks to p2.0, is actually spread around much like jackpoint is? Is it that they are just too new to have their stuff showing up yet? Or is it just that no-body has felt much urge yet to investigate? Or, maybe, it is that the stuff is actually hidden in plane sight, in the corp lingo and buzz words they use, and even their internal memos get spun t the point where they could be talking about roasting babies at a corporate dinner, and it comes out as something like "Orphans dinner: Join us as we help the needy and fight the scourge of hunger! Every 10 minutes, a child dies of hunger in the Barrens. We seek to help lessen this burden, so come, join us for our Orphans Dinner at the Horizon Group Grand Ballroom!" In a company where everything is image, I wonder how many internal memos might have that degree(or more) of spin to them?

[hermit]

The differance is that, while you may get brainwashed into feeling like the bad guy when you get fired from Mitsuhama for not kissing the boss' ass tenderly enough, you are the heel when you get fired from Horizon (...) It's not getting kicked out of a snooty country club that pretends to be heaven that really hurts--it's getting kicked out of the real heaven because you weren't good enough.

I'd say the Kiss-Cline's-Minions-Asses-Factor of a full third of your Horizon score accounts for one hell of a tender asskiss.

Besides, if Horizon is supposed to be heaven (as the books claim), why the turnover rate? Stuff contradicts itself again, like with Renraku, the Arcology Shutdown and whether or not this is public knowledge.

[Sir_Psycho]

Why does this thread have such a focus on military power? Why is it that just because Horizon is a media focused Megacorp, it is assumed they have nothing else? One of the canon definitions of A Triple AAA is that they have everything. They don't just "dabble". They have capital invested in all areas of the market. Horizon don't pop their satcoms into the sky and go "good thing we have good PR to defend against missiles." Attack a Horizon sattelite, and prepare to be blown out of the sky, because they are triple A. They don't set up a data-processing facility and then put a 24-hour revolving door on. They have security guards with full body armour and mil-spec weaponry, because they are an extraterritorial Triple A. And just like any other corp, they have the decker power to track you down after the run if they chooze, and blow you up or fry your brain. Yes, if you're good enough, you can bypass this security, but if you're good enough, you can probably break your way into a Aztechnology or Saeder-Krupp operation, too.

So more accurately, the Azzies and whoever the other mega's your touting as exponentially nastier due to a monopoly on military might can not just invade them. They may have nastier guns, but it doesn't mean the Horizon don't have nasty guns as well. Also, there's a thing called the Corporate Court that isn't exactly thrilled if Marketplace action is using strong-arm nuclear weapons and Thor Shots on other corps. Yes, all the corps have black ops teams and shadowrunners on call, and I'm willing to bet that with Horizon's personnel focus, just like Azzies have 'more' tanks, Horizon probably has ''more" shadowrunners on call and on the ground.

[hermit]

Why is it that just because Horizon is a media focused Megacorp, it is assumed they have nothing else?

Because that's what the available background says

One of the canon definitions of A Triple AAA is that they have everything. They don't just "dabble". They have capital invested in all areas of the market. Horizon don't pop their satcoms into the sky and go "good thing we have good PR to defend against missiles." Attack a Horizon sattelite, and prepare to be blown out of the sky, because they are triple A.

Do you have any canon background sources? Unless there's something on this, all Horizon can defend their sattelites with is pointed speeches.

They don't set up a data-processing facility and then put a 24-hour revolving door on. They have security guards with full body armour and mil-spec weaponry, because they are an extraterritorial Triple A.

I'd rather suppose they have drones ... in any way, the offensive qualities of guard battaillons are minimal.

And just like any other corp, they have the decker power to track you down after the run if they chooze, and blow you up or fry your brain.

I'm not talking about runs here, mind you. Neither are others when we are discussing Horizon's military capabilities. Sure, they can fuck up runners all right. The question is what they'd do tio defend themselves against a larger foe, like a government or a rival corp.

So more accurately, the Azzies and whoever the other mega's your touting as exponentially nastier due to a monopoly on military might can not just invade them.

Only if they're concerned about PR. If anyone really means it, Horizon is dead.

Yes, all the corps have black ops teams and shadowrunners on call, and I'm willing to bet that with Horizon's personnel focus, just like Azzies have 'more' tanks, Horizon probably has ''more" shadowrunners on call and on the ground.

Possible. And just how far those runners will get them has been mentioned above.

[Blade]

That's a mistake a lot of people (including writers) seem to do: seeing megacorps as just big companies. Megacorporations are... well megacorporations. They deal in everything. Sure some megacorps are better known for a specific area or invest more in some areas but I'm pretty sure that Horizon has a subsidiary selling armaments and at least a security agency.

And even if they didn't have a corporate army, they'd still have enough money to hire one if necessary...

[Eyeless Blond]

They do hold the security contract for LA, so they're not entirely sans sec forces.

Let's not forget that LA was home to a number of major military contractors; I doubt all those assets completely left when the major aerospace companies made the ill-fated trek to Chicago. Those would be ripe for buyouts by a cash-rich company like Horizon, flush from getting in on the ground floor of the Matrix 2.0 and worried about a major, aggressive military power just south of them.

Not I wouldn't expect them to advertise any of this. In fact I'd expect them to play down their military might as much as possible. The CalFree story is already chock-full of stories about armies appearing from nowhere (Tir Tarngire, Japan, the PCC) rolling in unopposed, and armies who heavily telegraph their presence (Aztlan) facing severe guerrilla and international resistance. So I'd be very surprised if Horizon had a huge military-industrial complex thing going, at least on paper; they're better off trying to make an army materialize out of nowhere, as seems to happen all the time in the CFS, and use it to roll over everyone and everything.

[Fuchs]

If you have the cash in 2070 (and Horizon has the cash) you can hire your own army. Horizon might have some units on retainers, both Mercs (directly) and nationals (through agreements with politicians).

[martindv]

So it fits right in, then, is what you're saying.

Not necessarily. Either there's something missing that I haven't seen, or then it's just Google. But Google is massive in wealth and income, not in the size needed to become a AAA (or even AA) megacorp.

Or maybe you're right, because very little of this makes any sense.

[Backgammon]

Why does this thread have such a focus on military power? Why is it that just because Horizon is a media focused Megacorp, it is assumed they have nothing else? One of the canon definitions of A Triple AAA is that they have everything.

Funny you should mention that. What you say is totally true. The always excellent Corporate Download / Shadowfiles has always painted an excellent portrait of the megas - they all have their specialties, but they always have significant interest in other fields. The books always drive this point home.

Now, let's look at Horizon. Major Divisions: Horizon Americas, Horizon Transglobal, The Horizon Project, Pathfinder Multimedia, Charisma Associates and Singularity.

You see a lot of diversity in that? I don't.

Horizon is a barely-A corp that happens to have a corporate court seat, which makes it defacto AAA. It has nowhere near the resources of a AAA. It can't even match a AA.

And Aztechnology, the second biggest corporation in the world and arguably the most brutal, lethal and dirty, hates their gut.

Yeah - BULLSHIT they play nice. And the Corp Enclave write-up does not point in that direction. No hints about just how desperate their situation is, and how they are fighting tooth and nail, doing whatever it takes to stay in power. In fact, the second the PCC stop meat-shielding them from the Azzis, Horizon will cease to exist the second Aztlan invades LA. A supposedly AAA Corporation stronger than a governement owes it's entire existance to the fact a governement is protecting it. Weak.

[nathanross]

Yeah, Horizon really is lacking relative to its ominous neighbor. I think, though, that Horizon is the future. Their methodology is almost more scary to me than Lowfy or Aztech. With the big boys, you know what you are dealing with. Horizon is still very much an unknown quantity. No one can advance towards power without stepping on the heads of those below them, and Im sure Horizon has plenty of skeletons in the closet. I also want to see how their "soft-hand" approach to business fares against the much bigger fish in the AAA waters.

[martindv]

As the kids say, Backgammon for the win.

[Wesley Street]

Whatever. I'm going to wait and see what the upcoming Corporate Shadowfiles/Corporate Downloads mash-up book I've seen mentioned before I make a final decision on the evilness of Horizon. But any corporation that specializes in what are essentially public PsyOps is an extremely powerful one. Who affects your world more: Time-Warner or Lockheed-Martin? I'll reiterate the already-made point that they had to become a AAA-corp somehow so I'm sure they have the cash to adequately protect their physical and Matrix resources. Plus, jackbooted Nazi-esque corporate stormtroopers are so late '80s. It's time to start thinking post-cyberpunk, people.

[Particle_Beam]

But the problem is, every megacorp also has a network division or owns one as a subsidiary. Some megacorps are just more proficient in its use than the others/more publicly known. Horizon being only a media corp and nothing else would make it too small for being a tripple-A-corporation. I'm pretty sure the writers and developers will add some more things about horizon in later books. Corporate Enclaves was in the end rather meant to showcase Los Angeles and Neo Tokyo.

[Synner]

Now, let's look at Horizon. Major Divisions: Horizon Americas, Horizon Transglobal, The Horizon Project, Pathfinder Multimedia, Charisma Associates and Singularity.

You see a lot of diversity in that? I don't.

Horizon is a barely-A corp that happens to have a corporate court seat, which makes it defacto AAA. It has nowhere near the resources of a AAA. It can't even match a AA.

In the interest of fairness, those are only Horizon's major operations in Los Angeles. Horizon has a lot more divisions and subdivisions that those (just check Neo-Tokyo where they possess the biggest media player in the JIS Hisato-Turner) and they are far more diversified than a simple "media corp" (though the fact that they want you to think they aren't is telling)

[martindv]

Whatever. I'm going to wait and see what the upcoming Corporate Shadowfiles/Corporate Downloads mash-up book I've seen mentioned before I make a final decision on the evilness of Horizon. But any corporation that specializes in what are essentially public PsyOps is an extremely powerful one. Who affects your world more: Time-Warner or Lockheed-Martin?

Lockheed Martin.


Oh, wait. Were you trying to make some kind of point?

[hermit]

Yeah, and noone has caught up on this because ... what? Sol and other Mega-Related media companies aren't Horizon-controlled, and dirt on Horizon would surely be very valuable for it's competitors, so they cannot simply black the Media out.

Also, maybe they do have some goon platoon. Still, they lack substance compared to the other Megas. Will this be adressed, and if, where?

Also, I just don't buy that the shadows, this very paranoid subculture, buy into Horizon's nicety, and nocthing has filtered through to there if there indeed is dirt on Cline's feet. This looks an awful lot like "Horizon is great because the authros will it", and that ... isn't exactly good style.

[Earlydawn]

Lockheed Martin.


Oh, wait. Were you trying to make some kind of point?

Military is useless without the capability to galvanize the public opinion. Do you think Germany would have been as successful without it's propaganda machine and strong figurehead during the war?

This is all nonsense anyway. Triple-As don't go to war.

[Backgammon]

This looks an awful lot like "Horizon is great because the authors will it", and that ... isn't exactly good style.

Yes, exactly my feeling. This is why Horizon is disappointing to me.

I do have faith that Horizon will receive more material to make it useable, but I just want to make sure everyone (especially the writers) understands it really needs more material to patch up the Corp Enclave offering. There is a BIG disjunction between what it should be (big scary AAA that treats culture as a commodity) vs what it is (innocent child corporation)

[Synner]

Horizon as portrayed in Corporate Enclaves is Horizon as it is seen in Los Angeles (and to a minimal extent Japan). Some hints are provided as to what their background is, and some notable accomplishments (the Tir rebranding, the Pueblo invasion, Cline, P2.0) but most of the content is specific to Los Angeles and its activities in Los Angeles.

Furthermore, most of the recent material on Horizon - from Emergence to Corporate Enclaves - has shown that they don't shy from playing dirty and they have the resources to do so. What seems weird, to some people at least, is that they're often presented as playing dirty for the right reasons or at least for the right causes (as opposed to other corps that when they get caught playing dirty it is normally for obvious "personal" gain).

For more on what Horizon is all about you will have to wait for the Corporate Guide sourcebook, though more tantalizing tidbits will be appearing in other location and sourcebooks before that. And yes, we do have other plans for Horizon.

I can pretty much confirm right now that Horizon does not possess a sizeable standing military force as other Triple As do. That doesn't mean it is a pushover or without teeth though... There's more than one way to fight (and win) wars.

[bibliophile20]

Military is useless without the capability to galvanize the public opinion. Do you think Germany would have been as successful without it's propaganda machine and strong figurehead during the war?

This is all nonsense anyway. Triple-As don't go to war.

Earlydawn, stop feeding the troll.

[Wesley Street]

Lockheed Martin.


Oh, wait. Were you trying to make some kind of point?

Maybe for you. For the rest of us? Not so much.

No attempt at a point was made. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) You can go back to yelling at strangers on the subway platform now.

[Backgammon]

What seems weird, to some people at least, is that they're often presented as playing dirty for the right reasons or at least for the right causes (as opposed to other corps that when they get caught playing dirty it is normally for obvious "personal" gain).

I flat out don't like the "we treat employees" well attitude. Obviously this, in reality, is the best way to treat your employees, but in a distopia I expect things to be sucky and inneficient. I guess I can sort of let it slide. The way you say the above sentence makes it sound pretty tentalizing. I'm guessing this has more to do with The Consensus. So for that, ok, I'll wait and see where you are going with this.

I can pretty much confirm right now that Horizon does not possess a sizeable standing military force as other Triple As do. That doesn't mean it is a pushover or without teeth though... There's more than one way to fight (and win) wars.

Yeah, that's not really one of my beefs. I don't know who brought it up, but I don't think it's important for them to have an actual standing army (they have the PCC for that anyway).

The only thing left that really bother me then is their size and (lack of) diversity vs their AAA rating. It very well may be that Horizon is more diversified than what Corp Enclave suggests as perhaps they have no other asset in LA (which admitedly IS the real focus of the section), but a mention of Horizon's real size would have been nice in that case. A couple of words in the Major Divisions section would have been helpful.

[hermit]

What seems weird, to some people at least, is that they're often presented as playing dirty for the right reasons or at least for the right causes (as opposed to other corps that when they get caught playing dirty it is normally for obvious "personal" gain).

Yup. That's what annoys me most. They're the 'good guys', presented so forcefully as such (including shadowtalkers saying how fair Horizon Johnsons are) that this looks, to me, like Cult of Torm, inc. And sorry, Lawful/Good and dystopian don't mix.

And there is no hint that this might not be the case. Maybe something like an AI Hivemind is behind this. Maybe Hestaby. But will that change and Horizon be another Mega who's neither totally evil nor totally good? I just don't see that. It reeks too much of 'kewlness', of "We change a central paradigm of the world, because we SR4 authors feel wild, creative and want to do something terribly original".

I can pretty much confirm right now that Horizon does not possess a sizeable standing military force as other Triple As do. That doesn't mean it is a pushover or without teeth though... There's more than one way to fight (and win) wars.

Sure. But only media presence won't save you. Ultimatly, it's guns that form power. Not words.

[Fortune]

Ultimatly, it's guns that form power. Not words.

That is highly debatable.

[Particle_Beam]

True, it's also the willingness to use those guns. As far as I've seen it, the megacorps are all willing to do it when it means to get more power.