I've been reading Corp Enclaves, which is the only real source of information on Horizon we have right now.

As I read I kept thinking "this sucks this sucks this suck" until I read about the dawkins group and then went "wait, what's that about destroying memes"?

Basically, the whole Google "Love you employees" stuff is terribly, TERRIBLY not cyberpunk. All of the megas have a wageslave culture, and then this little guy goes completely opposite. No good. Wageslave are essential to cyberpunk.

There is the tantalizing secret of "what is the Collective?", but that's not enough. These huys are waaaay to do-gooder.

But then, there is the Dawkins Group. Get this: they destroy memes and replace them with more profitable ones. These guys airdrop social adepts and marketing gurus into places, and then systematically DESTROY THEIR CULTURE and replace it with "BUY PEPSI".

That is the most awesome evil shit ever. But it needs to be emphasized more. The idea is there, but it did not go into details enough. There needs to be shadowposts about this native villager guy saying how his proud hunter village got transformed into a slobby BUY PEPSI place, how the village elders were killed and the kids indoctrinated and whatever else they do. Because that is seriously bad ass.

Aside from that, Google/Horizon needs to scale its evilness factor quite a bit. There are reports of disgruntled Googlers saying how it really is at Google, we need to see that for Horizon too. Doesn't mean its entirely true, but we need to see some of the dirt under Horizon's feet. And more meme killing. Buy Pepsi.

Give them time. Just remember Universal Brotherhood.

Yupp, meme hunters are seriously fun stuff. Imagine them going after one of your more opinionated PCs, that could make for a cool battle.

It is even worse than your usual 'wageslave' treatment. Even the shadows bought into their schemes.
A Horizon employee loves his country. Err, corp. So does an Ares Employee.

The difference is the way they ensure loyality. Fake freedom is still slavery.

But there's happiness in slavery.

I'd say you lack imagination to understand how terrifying the whole "Love you employees" concept is. It's way beyond cyberpunk slavery, granted, but I see it as something far worse. The cage, the shackles and the wardens been removed, but it is still slavery. I'd even say "Love you employees" functions like the cage, shackles and wardens. Horizon is so good at manipulating perception, it's plain scary. Employees might think they are free, they believe they work for nice guys, but at the end of the day, Horizon is still a AAA. And nobody will ever know, since they play the mediagame in a way no one has before.

For me, they replaced Aztechnology as the creepiest Megacon.

...you put enough spin on dog poo and they'll think its paté.

"Polish a turd, it's still a turd!!!" - Peanut of Jeff Dunham

Malicant has a great point,

Horizon is the master of manipulation. It is a welcome innovative addition to the AAA Corp Scene. They are more of a necessary evil in SR. They are the straightest shooters, more community focused than the other corps. However, the bottom line is that they want to control all media. Besides the line 'killing with kindness' is one of their traits. What better way to take out rivals; extract valuable personnel and such from rivals as always appearing to be the good guys.

I personally like the idea of 'The Consensus' being an AI instead of Bugs, but that is just my opinion.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, didn't one of the AI's from the Renraku Arcology Incident still 'at large'?

No. Emergence was pretty clear about their fate.

Oh okay, I never picked up Emergence. What did happen?

It's complicated, but it doesn't mean that the consensus isn't an AI, it's just not Megaera/Morgan, Deus or Mirage.

...but with Horizon's touch, it's a very tasty turd that is good for you.

It's even more than that. Horizon is proactive. Consider P2.0. Horizon controls the software architecture, it has your account information, it could potentially manipulate your ratings, it has access to the information people volunatrily pump into P2.0, it could be collecting and documenting your interests, spending habits, and hobbies... and it is just field-testing the technology in its backyard - imagine when it goes global playing off its huge success story in LA and banking on the popularity of Hollywood stars and big shots listed.

If you've read about the issues recently raised regarding Facebook and certain other social networks the magnitude of what Horizone is doing is pretty scary.

With Internal Persona, working for Horizon is like having your boss staring over your shoulder, shaking his head, tsking, making little scratchy noses on a clipboard: all the time. Only it's not through cameras or even an AR icon; it's through the eyes of your fellow employees, your associates, your friends, your fucking bartender. You have to put up the front 24-7 and there's no escape. They are noting everything you do and say, they know your "buying habits" - aka the way you leer at certain shapes, they know how you browse and what makes you impluse buy, they count the moments you spend lost in thought (and when they can, they follow where those thoughts lead). They determine your nuyen value to the corporation in real time. That kind of pressure to present yourself as a picture perfect person at all times drives people insane. And when you go insane, when you crack under the mask, they sit you in the chair and hardwire your brain into the mask, like turning Humanists into MOM supporters. It's exactly like wageslaving for a Japanacorp, only you gleefully jump into the culture because it seems so free and open, and then gleefully jump out of a window when your rating plummets. Imageslavery.

Does Horizon stop their people from leaving? From what I have read, Horizon also has a high dropout rate due to the very fact you are being scrutinised 24/7/365.

My impression of the material is that Horizon does not stop their people from leaving. The positives are so atttractive that people are trying to get into the corp, those that cannot take the pressure either drop down the ranks or leave.

They likely have a very high turnover rate, hiring and firing and having people "quit" constantly. And if a few people happen to get... lost in the shuffle now and again, well no one really notices, because the turnover rate is just so high, how can you keep up with all those people?

Who's going to look into it? Internal Affairs would, but well they're so gosh-darn busy on their side-projects; they have to be, since so few people like IA guys snooping around they're constantly working on their Persona rating or they'll be downsized next.

sure, once you've sucked them dry why bother keeping them? let someone else have the responsibility to make that person sane again

perfect capitalist sense

Horizon is a horribyl cutthroat place to work. You might be able to fail upwards in other corps because of influence or avarice but here... here you're on trial 24/7 and that's before you consider that they might have a pet AI or worse tunning the fine bits. Had a bad week? You just got "demoted". Have two bad weeks and your social standing just dropped into the shitter, you're unreliable. Tags are added to your work record, the drink machines start charging you. You recieve emails suggesting that perhaps this isn't the line of work for you, perhaps you should consider working in a more "traditional" setting. Perform or die, you can't even cry "But my daddy works here!". In many ways that's more stressful than being a mindless drone. The safety net that is present in other corps just doesn't seem to exist at Horizon.

Just because they have a fully stocked drink machine doens't mean it's doesn't have it's dark underbelly. And their new, it's all fun and games until it turns out that datajack implantations and memetic modification are standard practice past a certain point. It's even creepier when you realize that people actually love working there. That they do these things willingly, not because of any overt brainwashing but because they openly desire this sort of lifestyle. Horizon, all the fanatic, none of the loyalty.

Horizon Corps loves it's employees, and it's employees love Horizon. Or they work somewhere else.

I think Horizon is more Snow Crash than Neuromancer and that can be kinda off putting.

Most likely depends where they work. If it's a normal to slightly important grunt, then they most likely wouldn't care. The higher up you are, the more "reluctant" they are to have you leave while still breathing. Now if you're not breathing... they still may want you to stay...

Why would they be reluctant to let you leave if your rating drops? If your rating goes down, you'd be unimportant then. From what I gather, there is no vertical structure to Horizon, everyone and everybody is Horizon-tal.

Nah,there has to be *some* vertical structure. I mean, you need maintenance and security and such; that's not going to be as important or pay as well as a corporate liaison, talented marketer, or highly skilled worker... or a mage, for that matter.

But it does seem a lot more, Borg-like, really, than other megas. And by that I mean real Borg, not retconned Voyager-series Queen-controlled Borg. Everyone's a drone; everyone's plugged into the Consensus, like... like neurons in a neural network. A hive mind, written into the HIP code. We are Horizon. We are the future. Your culture will adapt to serve as ours. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

But as I read it, the way Horizon is configured that maintanance guy or security guy can crash the CEO's internal rating if the CEO does something to piss off the peon.

That peon had better have some supporting evidence as the CEO will most certainly have people who are giving him a good rating. Also, unless there is ZERO emotions at Horizon, that peon will most likely get fired.

"You don´t have to tell us, your rating is too low for our standards DESPITE that."

I'd expect Cline to show no real emotion. He'd have the peon coming to his office and spend one hour or two explaining there is no "I" in "team" and all that crap, listining to the peon personel problems at work and at home, and finally give him some "important project" to carry. If the peon still doesn't change his mind, he'd get one extra hour about as worst as when your girlfriend explains you your relationship cannot go on and that it'd be better for both of us to stop it here. And in the end, everybody else at Horizon would firmly believe this was all the peon's fault.

That's the point. The guy with the larger dice pool raises to and remains on top. Anyone with that kind of dice pool can do it.

Your dice pools are meaningless, unless you know how to apply them.

That simply means you do not have the necessary dice pool for the appropriate Knowledge skills to how to apply them.

What, no one believes Horizon could simply really be a wonderful employer, with strong commitment to employee work-life balance and a genuine desire to better the world? A great place to work where everyone is valued and happy and sings during coffee breaks?

The Dawkins Group ultimate adept power?

"The Care Bear Stare"

...that leaves me concerned about what is being put in the soycaff

I'm beginning get the feeling that there's going to be some Big Trouble in Little Elfland down the road that will make what the former Council of Pixies did look like an ice cream social.

...of course, then there is Hestaby to still deal with.

Maybe I'm still a noob, but "Council of Pixies"? More information please!

little elfland = tir tairngire.
council of pixies = council of princes (the governing body of tir tairngire, which hestaby happens to be on)

You know Tiger has a point, aren't there enough evil megacorps running around? Can't we have at least one "Sorta okay doesn't eat babies" corps out there? Does that really hose the whole of cyberpunk?

Having black hats and gray hats is a good mix. White hat AAAs are not my style.

My PC likes to deal with Evo because they make stuff for metahumans... but it's biz, and he knows that if they can make more money by scragging him, they're likely to serve their stockholder's interests at any personal or ethical cost.

Well gray hat than. Just because they're nice to their employees doesn't mean their not totally evil to everyone else.

Hell, it might make them and their employees even more willing to totally destroy the competition.

"Fools! Don't they perceive our righteous ascension! Soon they shall understand the true power of the Consensus!
Now Gary, please run these figures down to accounting, and get yourself a free soda too."

Tiger Eyes was being facetious, and if I'm not mistaken is the architect of Horizon and author of the L.A. section.

Ah I see my sarcasm sensors net is down again

Oh well.

Wait, your telling me they have an AI that has decided it's workforce MUST be happy and someone thinks this might not be evil?

So, Horizon gives its employees 20% of their work time to pursue their own interests, like taking a poetry workshop or joining the inter-departmental soccer team. Then the corp encourages employees to volunteer in the community - reading to little kids in schools, building houses for the poor, etc.

And then you gentlemen jump in and call Horizon scary and evil... You know what? You guys are paranoid. Except DocTaoTsu. He's nice.

...moi? paranoid...? [looks around suspiciously]

Nah, we're just realists.

I'm sure it's gonna turn out that Horizon is being run by a Horror or something that clawed its way out of the depths of the LA alchera, and then we can feel all superior and stuff while it eats the souls of its workforce and our characters.

What I want to know is what happens if the AI doesn't find your poetry esthetically pleasing.

...some of use also still remember the UB.

I don't know why you have to be mean to Horizon! I just stopped by their offices last week to have some strong words with them about their latest memetic purge and now I feel fine!

*Turns to walk away, revealing a giant spike driven into the base of his skull. Spike reads: Product of Horizon corps!*

I think the UB were a little more obviously creepy to begin with.

But you're right, there's a precedent.

Honestly for my game I'm going to run Horizon as a whitish gray hat, they take care of their employees (who perform) but are utterly ruthless in the corporate sector. I imagine runners hunting down or protecting Horizon defectors who are going after employees who tried to get away without "giving their pound of flesh" for all that extra down time.

Though it's probably already been decided in a setting bible somewhere, I think the fact that so many people expect Horizon to turn out to be another UB-style fiasco is pretty much why it probably shouldn't be made into one. The 'secretly evil corporation' trope is nearly as played-out in the cyberpunk genre as 'blatantly evil corp'. Fortunately Shadowrun has largely managed to avoid the latter (Aztechnology and, to a slightly lesser degree, MCT, being the exceptions), and it'd be nice if it could use the former just as sparingly.

And, anyway, it's not like being a good place to work (What's so horrible about a meritocracy, exactly?) actually makes them a good organization. Horizon is still a profit-driven corporation, not a charity. They want your money and they plan to get it, by hook or by crook. So far, the most questionable hijinks Horizon gets up to are their massive datamining operation (which is definitely shady), CalHot production, and their Dawkins Group (literal) culture-warriors. But, honestly, I don't see why that's not bad enough. They just don't seem to be treating the people who help them do it like garbage. I think there's room in the setting for that sort of thing.

And it's not like the truth of the matter would stop the paranoid set from constructing elaborate conspiracy theories around them, anyway. Hell, it's 30 years on, and there are still people who are absolutely convinced that P&G donates a sizable portion of their yearly profits to the Church of Satan. So even if Horizon is 100% legit, there are still going to be people screaming about how 'it's too good to be true!' and looking in the corners for soul-devouring boogins. And every other corp that doesn't do business that way will always be looking for that one irrefutable 'gotcha' bombshell they can use to utterly destroy Horizon and would probably pay well to find it. Which can only help the shadow job market.

"Happiness is mandatory, citizen- er - employee! The Computer is your friend! Have a nice daycycle!"

The fake naivete/sarcasm bit wore out a long time ago.