Is Horizon evil enough?, is Google cyberpunk Options

[swirler]

OP
why do you hate Pepsi so much? Coke and MC Donalds are the icons everyone in the world can recognize. They are the big evils, well in the meme destruction.
Google IS evil, they are like the freaking borg, swallowing up everything in their path. All must assimilate with the mighty Google. I am waiting for them to combine with Micro$oft and Intel into a triad of evil.

As far as Horizon, I haven't finished Corporate Enclaves yet. I am reading several books at the same time, but what I've read so far doesn't make them sound like sunshine and rainbows. They are at the heart a marketing/entertainment company. Those almost by definition can't be goody goody. Now that doesn't mean they have to be "having fetuses for breakfast" or anything like that, but it also doesn't mean they are "the good guys".

again I have more to read, I'm just saying, there is alot of gray in SR.

[hermit]

You know Tiger has a point, aren't there enough evil megacorps running around? Can't we have at least one "Sorta okay doesn't eat babies" corps out there? Does that really hose the whole of cyberpunk?

Actually ... yes, it does. Sort of. They needn't eat babies or cut out peoples' hearts and be in league with Horrors. But they need *some* downside. The way CE made them out to be, they appeared as Care Bears. I'm sorry, but that's just idiotic.

Besides, no Megacorp, save for Aztechnology maybe, truly is evil. Most are just grey.

"People see what they believe and Horizon surpasses everyone else in the field of making people believe what fits them best. If that does not scare you, you should try watching the news and ask yourself "What do they want me to see? What are they hiding behind it?

Problem is, if they really are the do-gooders Tiger Eyes made them appear as, the answer to this would be ... nothing. They're actually telling the truth. Because Justice, Truth and their sheer goodness commands them to.

No really, chaotic/good companies are too cheesy even by Shadowrun standards.

The Dawkins Group makes Karl Rove look like Mother Theresa.

Really? How? Have I missed the part in CE where the Dawkins Group orchestrated a war based on lies (bad one at that) just because Cline doesn't like Iraq much? Or where the Dawkins Group seriously and utterly screwed up in doing good and ended up struggling to revert a country (say, Iraq) to the level of horrificness it had before they intervened?

Also, on the whole 'memes' bullshit ...

Sure, 'viral meme' sounds a lot less old fashioned than 'word of mouth', but strip it of it's fancy hightech sounding name (it's got a weirdish new smart-sounding word and 'virus' in it, it has to be something new), andthat's just what remains. Carefully orchestrated word of mouth. An advertising technique so new and innovative it has been used in ancient Rome.

Same with 'memes' in general. It's, if you leave all the as-if-scientific crap out, nothing more and less than propaganda. Also, something so new and innovative it's already been used in ancient Rome (possibly already Ur, surely at the end of the Old Empire in ancient Egypt).

Oh, and in case the authors of SR4 forgot: HTB isn' all there is to Shadowrun's global media. Even in north america you have six other syndicates (five if Ares swallowed Quebeck's) - Aztech's Televisa/Hispanic Network, Ares' NBS, NABS (controlled jointly by the NAN governments), MCT's CBC and Saeder-Krupp's ABS. Not to mention places other than North America. Horizon in no way has a monopoly on media coverage.

Also, I find it hard to believe everyone turned on Technomancers just because MCT was spreading some bad news about them, yet noone turns on Horizon after they backed them up (Or AIs, for that matter).

Finally, should Horizon's Dawkins Group really engage in massive magical manipulation of people, I'd be very disappointed in the current authors (well, more than I already am) if the Corp would no get the second Corp Court Zero Order ever.

[Malicant]

Nobody ever suspects the butterflies.

Well, they are pretty.

[Backgammon]

I don't hate Pepsi. It's a pseudo-reference to a Simpsons episode with a flash-forward to the future where the classes are sponsered by Pepsi, so when the teacher asks Ralph a question he doesn't know, he answers "uhh, Pepsi?" and the teacher brigthly says "Partial Credit!". I don't know, just imagery. Don't look too much into it.

[Backgammon]

hermit is a bit, er, blunt, but he touches on good points. Simply put, as is currently written, Horizon are do-goody carebears. Obviously, with only what, 2 sourcebooks out, there hasn't been much chance for fluff, but that's how it stands. But that shouldn't be an excuse. Corp Enclave should have shown more dirt. The "main poster" of the Horizon write-up (not Tiger Eyes, the in-game author) did not say anything about "but beware, some say they eat babies" and no shadowposters came out and reported Horizon atrocities. Lots of hints, oh yeah. How did they get their AAA seat (I'm waiting for a REAL good explanation there, by the way), what is The Consensus, the Dawkins Group.. lots of hints, nothing concrete. If I ran Horizon right now, they would be awesome people.

I think the foreshadowing was overdone. The next book out better have dirt.

[Zak]

Actually ... yes, it does. Sort of. They needn't eat babies or cut out peoples' hearts and be in league with Horrors. But they need *some* downside. The way CE made them out to be, they appeared as Care Bears. I'm sorry, but that's just idiotic.

Ugh, don't start with Care Bears. They are inherently evil without knowing and admitting it. Quite a bit too dystopian even for my Shadowrun settings.

[hermit]

I think the foreshadowing was overdone. The next book out better have dirt.

Yeah ... other 'nice organisation wich is just a facade for Terrible Things™' plots have been introduced with more hints and glimpses at their dirt. Like the UB has been, like Aztech has been ...

Please not ethat I am NOT demanding some ultra evil threat-thingie conspiracy type of plot plot or something ... I just have serious trouble suspending my disbelief that thouroughly as to believe Horizon really doesn't have anything darker going on than occasional staged news-ish events and character assassination campaigns.

[Malicant]

Problem is, if they really are the do-gooders Tiger Eyes made them appear as, the answer to this would be ... nothing. They're actually telling the truth. Because Justice, Truth and their sheer goodness commands them to.

That's why I don't think they are "good", whatever that term means. Just another Mega with a really pretty face.

[Tiger Eyes]

The "main poster" of the Horizon write-up (not Tiger Eyes, the in-game author) did not say anything about "but beware, some say they eat babies" and no shadowposters came out and reported Horizon atrocities.

The posters on Jackpoint are people with certain specific knowledge and specializations. They are not omnipotent - as demonstrated by Emergence, when all but one (Netcat) were taken by surprise by the fact that Technomancers were even around. This is a group of some of the most knowledgeable folks in the shadows, and they hadn't even heard of technomancers prior to Emergence. Five years after the crash...

Now, think about how they say that Horizon has a pretty good rep in the shadows. How Horizon has manipulated shadowrunners (!) into broadcasting their runs for public entertainment. How Horizon is the ultimate spin-doctoring machine... even in the shadows.

Some Jackpoint posters are more suspicious (like Dr. Spin) or more conspiracy-theory oriented (like Snopes), but even they don't have any hard facts. Or perhaps they've been fooled by the Horizon media machine. *shrug* Just keep in mind, they don't know everything and Corporate Enclaves is written from their point of view. It doesn't have 'Game Information' (that handy and fun chapter where the developers reveal the actual secrets behind the scene). If none of them have come out and said, "Horizon eats babies" that's probably because none of them know (or believe) that Horizon does...

[Angier]

[...]

QFT!

[Backgammon]

The posters on Jackpoint are people with certain specific knowledge and specializations. They are not omnipotent - as demonstrated by Emergence, when all but one (Netcat) were taken by surprise by the fact that Technomancers were even around. This is a group of some of the most knowledgeable folks in the shadows, and they hadn't even heard of technomancers prior to Emergence. Five years after the crash...

Now, think about how they say that Horizon has a pretty good rep in the shadows. How Horizon has manipulated shadowrunners (!) into broadcasting their runs for public entertainment. How Horizon is the ultimate spin-doctoring machine... even in the shadows.

Some Jackpoint posters are more suspicious (like Dr. Spin) or more conspiracy-theory oriented (like Snopes), but even they don't have any hard facts. Or perhaps they've been fooled by the Horizon media machine. *shrug* Just keep in mind, they don't know everything and Corporate Enclaves is written from their point of view. It doesn't have 'Game Information' (that handy and fun chapter where the developers reveal the actual secrets behind the scene). If none of them have come out and said, "Horizon eats babies" that's probably because none of them know (or believe) that Horizon does...

Sure, I understand all that. But asking us to believe that Shadowrunners look at Horizon, a tiny corps that came out nowhere and that made AAA overnight, and shrug and say "we could find no dirt" is asking for some serious suspension of disbelief. Or saying that the Shadowrunner community really got soft. Close, very close, to that, and something that would have gone by a bit better, was showing that the Shadow community is HIGHLY suspecious of Horizon BEAUSE of the fact they could not find dirt. Accepting it doesn't sit right, and gives the GM the impression Horizon's image is truth. I think that's the problem. I have NO problem with Horizon having a squeaky clean image. But something, either through shadowposts, or even Game Information, should have shown that there IS dirt there, that you can't get to AAA - and survive as a AAA - by playing by the rules and being nice.

I mean, from what we saw in CE, Horizon is barely internationnal. Ok, it got a AAA seat. Shrewd manipulation, I understand that. I like it, too (as long as its properly explained later). But my understanding is that every hungry AA corp out there would POUNCE on the motherfuckers and hostile takeover them to gain that AAA seat. Horizon isn't tiny, but it's not big enough either. So if it is fending off those attacks, then you can bet your ass they fight dirty.

[martindv]

Sure, I understand all that. But asking us to believe that Shadowrunners look at Horizon, a tiny corps that came out nowhere and that made AAA overnight, and shrug and say "we could find no dirt" is asking for some serious suspension of disbelief.

This is the same game where Fastjack welcomes Colloton's election as President as something of a savior of the UCAS. I call shenanigans on him not having the simple capacity to watch her East Room speech, which is a confession to her involvement in a coup d'etat.

[martindv]

After all, the Dawkins Group makes Karl Rove look like Mother Theresa.

That's uncalled for.

Karl Rove has never denied what he is. In fact he is rather straightforward about what he is and what he does. He gets his candidates elected by any means necessary. He doesn't hide in the shadows pretending to be a saint while doing what everyone else does in politics. The only thing that distinguishes him is the scale on which he's succeeded.

[Synner]

Oh, and in case the authors of SR4 forgot: HTB isn' all there is to Shadowrun's global media. Even in north america you have six other syndicates (five if Ares swallowed Quebeck's) - Aztech's Televisa/Hispanic Network, Ares' NBS, NABS (controlled jointly by the NAN governments), MCT's CBC and Saeder-Krupp's ABS. Not to mention places other than North America. Horizon in no way has a monopoly on media coverage.

Nobody said it does. However, trid is not the only form of media.

Also comparing meme dissemination with "word of mouth" is like comparing a Ford Model T with a MacLaren F1. The mechancial fundamentals may be the same, but only in the most simplistic sense are the two related. Disseminating memes through obscure reference, name-dropping, subliminals, and repetition be it in song lyrics, advertising, political speeches, blogs, graffiti, even repeated references in crossword puzzles are proven to work - and none of those qualify as "word of mouth". What Horizon does better than anyone is combine those diverse media/mediums and use them to reinforce each other and grant gravity and resonance to the message/meme.

Also, I find it hard to believe everyone turned on Technomancers just because MCT was spreading some bad news about them, yet noone turns on Horizon after they backed them up (Or AIs, for that matter).

You must have misread something. MCT anti-technomancer propaganada was quickly reinforced by almost all the Japanacorps and Aztechnology. Horizon's pro-technomancer media campaign was supported by Evo. Ares, but also S-K and Wuxing went with the flow first following everybody else's lead with the anti-technomancer hysteria, then becoming more neutral when the pity wave kicked in after inhuman experimentation on technomancers was revealed - don't take my word for it, check who owns what in the newsfeed and press items posted.

Finally, should Horizon's Dawkins Group really engage in massive magical manipulation of people, I'd be very disappointed in the current authors (well, more than I already am) if the Corp would no get the second Corp Court Zero Order ever.

Nope, magical manipulation isn't it. The Dawkins Group is up to something else.

[Demonseed Elite]

That's uncalled for.

Karl Rove has never denied what he is. In fact he is rather straightforward about what he is and what he does. He gets his candidates elected by any means necessary. He doesn't hide in the shadows pretending to be a saint while doing what everyone else does in politics. The only thing that distinguishes him is the scale on which he's succeeded.

So what's the uncalled for part, exactly?

The Dawkins Group wages similar wars for Horizon, while the corp still does come out looking like a saint.

[Sir_Psycho]

Market research firms and media institutions scare the shit out of me in the fifth world. Horizon just takes the idea of a compromised media and unethical social influence and turbocharges it into sixth world dystopia. But it's very subtle, and very scary.

Sure, Renraku might capture a few people and bash their brains to mush with a simsense shovel for fun and research. But at the end of the day, it's a horrible thing to do to what, a hundred people? Ares, the victors, now have the spoils of controlling a few hives of bug spirits. And who thinks Evo hasn't used some painful and invasive research methods on the metahumans they're so compassionate for in order to "create a equitable market". But Horizon controls us all. Anyone who walks down the street in AR, anyone who watches the trid, anyone who buys consumer products. And they do it so subtly we'll never know if the choices we make are our own.

[DocTaotsu]

Well... I guess I'll just have to remit myself from further discussion on this topic until I actually read Corporate Enclaves.

But the take away lesson for me is that CE was written from a particular point of view to show how an organization appears to the shadow community. To me that means it's leaving plenty of room for making shit up until "Universal Brotherhood 2! Horizon Corps" or "Horizon:The March to Ascendancy" or "Just Like Everyone Else:A Corporate Guide to the Horizon Lifestyle". I have my pony in a particular race but hey, that's just me.

[hermit]

Nobody said it does. However, trid is not the only form of media.

I know. However, the Megas all have their respective Representation in other fields of the media market, too (SimSense: MCT has Sakura Studios and Mediasim; Ares has Ares Global Entertainment, Aztech propably also has something never before mentioned (they make the bulk of their cash in consumer goods, they absolutly have to have a simsense studio branch), SK has the DeMeKo media empire, Evo also had some simsense studio whose name I forgot, same with Renraku and Shiawase, though fluff to date and my knowledge hasn't covered them in detail ... in any way, Horizon isn't just taking over an established market with very powerful competitors just like that. I cannot suspend my disbelief that thoroughly.

And if their turnover rate is as high as fluff claims, their oh-so-innovative MOs are hardly exclusive and bound to be copied by other corps.

Also comparing meme dissemination with "word of mouth" is like comparing a Ford Model T with a MacLaren F1. The mechancial fundamentals may be the same, but only in the most simplistic sense are the two related. Disseminating memes through obscure reference, name-dropping, subliminals, and repetition be it in song lyrics, advertising, political speeches, blogs, graffiti, even repeated references in crossword puzzles are proven to work - and none of those qualify as "word of mouth". What Horizon does better than anyone is combine those diverse media/mediums and use them to reinforce each other and grant gravity and resonance to the message/meme.

Aside from the fact that nothing of the above mentioned is in any way a new idea - except for subliminals, which don't work, never haven, never will, except maybe on the fictional SR technology of simsense, where they're severely illegal and would propably get Horizon immensely bad publicity if exposed (and they would surely be, see turnover rate), maybe even a Zero Order if they'd been brainfragging other companies' drones.

You must have misread something. MCT anti-technomancer propaganada was quickly reinforced by almost all the Japanacorps and Aztechnology. Horizon's pro-technomancer media campaign was supported by Evo. Ares, but also S-K and Wuxing went with the flow first following everybody else's lead with the anti-technomancer hysteria, then becoming more neutral when the pity wave kicked in after inhuman experimentation on technomancers was revealed - don't take my word for it, check who owns what in the newsfeed and press items posted.

I did. One thng I liked about Emergence, the density of fluff names (I collect such stuff). But I must've missed the wide pity wave. To me, it seemed more like "well, that goes a bit far", the kind of response you'd have gotten from a Nazi Germany citizen questioned about jews and death camps. While idly standing by as jewish neighbours are beind dragged out of their homes and deported, and doing nothing.

Nope, magical manipulation isn't it. The Dawkins Group is up to something else.

Dirt, yeeeeh ...

Sure, Renraku might capture a few people and bash their brains to mush with a simsense shovel for fun and research. But at the end of the day, it's a horrible thing to do to what, a hundred people?

A couple hundred thousand, you mean? They even market arcology drones like that centipede thingy now, after all. Yeah, that being overlooked is really hard to swallow eiter, all the more because the books contradict themsleves there.

But Horizon controls us all. Anyone who walks down the street in AR, anyone who watches the trid, anyone who buys consumer products. And they do it so subtly we'll never know if the choices we make are our own.

Like how? Consumer goods have been the turf of many megas, namely Ares and Aztech, but also MCT, Wuxing and SK. I don't see Horizon being a consumer goods monopoly all of a sudden. Not even CE claims this. So where exactly do you get that from?

[Sir_Psycho]

When I said a couple hundred, I meant one "focus group". Also, I never said monopoly. at all. It's not their power that's impressive, it's how fast they've accumulated it. And we're just discussing, I don't know the exact market-share of Horizon and I don't need to. I was just illustrating that what makes them at least as scary as other megacorps is their approach to the market. Other corps focus intently on their products, and then use advertising as a means to an end. Horizon uses an innovative and pervasive system of public influence, not new, but just slightly beyond what other corps have done, and then they use that power to do whatever they want. So far, they just use it to sell consumer products and subscribe more users, but it's their potential that's scary.

[swirler]

maybe I'm missing something here (could be, like i said i haven't finished CE yet) but could the reason no one has any dirt yet on Horizon be no one has offered up enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to make it worth the effort? Could that be part of the problem? I mena sure some people might have that kinda free time but that stuff also takes a certain amount of :nuyen:so their might not (at least in canon info) been enough percentage in it to look.

just my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Backgammon]

maybe I'm missing something here (could be, like i said i haven't finished CE yet) but could the reason no one has any dirt yet on Horizon be no one has offered up enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to make it worth the effort? Could that be part of the problem? I mena sure some people might have that kinda free time but that stuff also takes a certain amount of :nuyen:so their might not (at least in canon info) been enough percentage in it to look.

just my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

That depends. If I am correct that Horizon is significantly smaller than any other AAA, it is therefore target #1 for any AA looking for a corp seat, which means metric shit ton of shadowruns to dig up dirt to gain an angle of attack.

Whatever reason it may be that there is no dirt on Horizon out is not from lack of shadowruns against it.

[hermit]

So they have scaryness potential because what? They are a media company? Boo-fucking-hoo-hoo. In a world where a creature that can blow up cities at will (Aden did that to Tehran) head companies, in a world where other companies operate their own armies and act like they were states, invading whereever they feel they can get away with it, in a world where other companies fabricate soul-eating impersonator things and do a lot of other, physical bad deeds ... yeah, the capability to commit a smear campaign really is goddamn scary.

And again, Horizon has in no way near a monopoly on media coverage. Also, other corporations can spin stuff too. Horizon maybe can conjure up hysteria about their products a few times, but if they're not worth their hype, this will soon get them bad PR. You cannot spin your image forever (unless you use massive magical means, wich will get you zero-ordered).

Also, muscleing into the prime market of aztechnology? A company better have more than words to defend themselves with. As stated before, Aztech is also terribly good at covering their tracks - and unlike Horizon, they have a quite competent army at their beck and call.

Yeah right. Horizon, as described, sounds really damn scary.

[hermit]

- someone please delete. thank you -

[swirler]

The ability to "spin" is a huge and scary thing. Look at how retroactive changes have altered history, and that's on a small scale. They can get to a point where they can pick a person and turn him into public enemy #1 easily. Also they are shining a lot of light on the shadows which may be part of the problem for finding dirt. They have cameras on them constantly . Like I said, no ones done it in canon, that doesn't mean someone can't in game. Again, like I suggested in more long winded topics these may be bones that the devs are tossing out for gm's to do with as they wish. Keep in mind we have very little info on them yet. More will surface, I'm sure. More books are coming.

[Angier]

I don't need to be told that "Erae (meta)humanum est" in order to let the Horizon Group do some pretty messy stuff in the wake of my campaign.