After the Run Options

[Wounded Ronin]

After the run? A steaming cup of soykaf would be whiz about now.


Seriously, I love this thread and the discussion, but the problem is that SR doesn't spend so much time on forensics. I agree that realistically if someone wanted to be a hitperson, lab animal liberator for hire, industrial spy, or whatever, that a great deal of their energy should go towards avoiding being tracked down by the police or other parties later. I always felt that this would be an interesting and challenging element of gameplay and planning. However, since it's not really clearly spelled out in the rulebooks how tracking you down works (not in the same detail as how a gunfight works) it's also tough to develop more mandatory stuff in that direction.

[Spike]

How is the runner's paranoia the Johnson's problem?

What J. is going to pay for the runner to replace a load of perfectly good gear after every job?

"I want to ditch every piece of equipment I used on the run on the off-chance it could be traced back to this job..." So far so good "... and I want you to pay for it." That part is the problem. Expenses I can see. You need some special piece of gear to accomplish the mission, I can see the J paying, but your paranoia is NOT HIS PROBLEM.

Traceable gear is only a problem if you get caught, so DON"T GET CAUGHT!

First: your quote sounds like a glitched negotiation test. Lets say you were married and didn't want kids. Would your wife ask you to get a puppy "so I can love it like it was one of those precious children I so desperately want but you tell me we can't afford yet" ?

Of course not. That may be why she wants one, but thats not how you get it.

Again: Players (for whatever reason) accumulate 'stuff'. Like the guy with thirty different guns, and he claims he carries them all... and his Katana. Never mind the stupidity of trying to strap thirty guns and a katana to your person, its indicative of an 'out of character' phenomenon.

Since this topic is more "In Character' in tone, the fact that you feel you need to carry, say, a respirator with pressure regulator with you on every job (something that many of my older Shadowrun characters always had...) is irrelevant.

Stuff you own, and stuff you use on the job are two seperate things. At least in a sensible outlook (exceptions for 'custum signature guns' or what have you).

Does the job call for a hang glider? Great, go get one. Otherwise, you don't need it, leave it at home for hobby time.

How it actually should go down, at the negotiation table is like this: Johnson lays out a snatch and grab job, one that is virtually garaunteed to go south. He offer's 80k for the job.

The Team leader notices that they'll need to access a vault. That's cutting equipment and/or explosives to get into the vault. Call it 5k in equipment right there. Then he sees that the security layout possibly includes gas in the ventilation system, that's another 1000 in respirators for the team. Then he estimates that they'll burn through (as a team) 2000 rounds of ammo, plus some grenades, and should probably bring assault rifles on the job. Between the ammo, grenades and the rifles he chalks it up to 10k, never mind the fact that anyone shot is going to need new armor, plus potential first aid and potentially medical (another 5-10k, just in case). Then he figures, new IDs, bribe money, investigative costs. Before long he sees that half his payday is just covering the job. After expenses and splitting the payday 6 ways (large team, say) that means hes only up about 6k in profit per person.

So he goes: Sounds nice, but a job like that requires specialized equipment. 80k isn't going to cover it, I'll need 120k for expenses and because of the heat it'll generate for us."

Then the Johnson will look at his budget, and his assets and maybe hell negotiate on how much he'll cover for expenses, or offer to supply some of the tab (say, picking up medical... if the team doesn't need it he comes out ahead. Rifles and ammo he can take back (unexpended ammo anyway), which would knock an easy 20k off the job.


Sterilizing yourself is an assumed, known expense, and if the Johnson won't pay you enough for the heat (a factor in how important it is to sterilize) then he's just not paying enough.

I assume that the pay scale rates are based on metagame considerations (out of character behavior, like never ditching equipment, never having to replace bought safehouses and ID's), rather than the 'realistic' behaviors of professional terrorists. Obviously, if this sort of stuff is happening in game, then the pay rates should rise to reflect the cost of doing business. Of course an unspoken question is 'how long between runs'. Thats another factor: A job that pays 10k profit per runner is enough for one month high lifestyle, meaning if he wants a high lifestyle to be his standard, he needs to do an equivilent job every month.


A job likely to generate serious heat (say, assassinating the CEO of Ares) should pay enough for all those expenses, plus a nest egg PLUS enough money for a high lifestyle for a year in the bahamas to let things cool down, at a minimum. Of course, a job like that isn't offered, seriously anyway, to a runner with the none of the habits suggested here. That runner is going to get caught after a job like that, he is going to be interrogated, and with all the toys available, he IS going to spill everything he knows about the Johnson. No, runners with sloppy habits are patsies and errand boys. Great for getting your feet wet, but eventually you should be looking at big scores, not more of the same milk runs.


Plus you keep missing the point about getting caught: Traceable gear will incriminate you, sure, if you get caught. However: using traceable gear INCREASES you chances of getting caught. You cut a man's throat and you are covered in blood. You keep walking around in the bloody clothes you WILL GET CAUGHT. If you put them away in your house you might not get caught, but if anyone ever looks in your house...well...

Same principle, only less obvious: Runner A uses the same gun every job. He's discreet and professional, has a good hacker cover his electronic tracks, sure, but he keeps using that gun. Eventually someone notices that this same gun has been used on seven different runs agains ARES (lets say an internal investigator, from the Corp...) and they start looking closer, obviously this runner hits them regularly and that moves them into 'not an asset' on the balance sheet. They start looking at the lot numbers of the ammo he uses, maybe they can find his supplier (assumption: RFID tags in ammo, helps track current ammo load with your PAN, so is reasonable assumption of Canon), then they start looking for any shootings outside of Ares that may have used that same gun. Your Runner may or may not have shot someone near his regular haunts, maybe the noisy neighbor who beat his wife, and they start assembling a map of places that gun has been used. they'll know the make and model (CSI guys can do this now, betting its just as easy in the future) within reasonable tolerances, and they'll have other evidence against him as well, the gun was just the starting point. Maybe they've got a PAN account number from a coffee machine OS that got overlooked on one run, maybe they have more information on his less discreet partners... heck, they probably have a line on which fixers brokered some of the deals that led to those runs. Fixers care about survival, money and the runners, in that order. The Corps threaten his survival and can pay lots of money to make him squeal, most will turn (this is Shadowrun, after all, trust no one).

Next thing you know, they've got him under surviellance, maybe they kill him to prove a point, maybe they pick him up and make him an offer he can't refuse... maybe they wait until his next job against Ares, and having seen him planning the whole thing are waiting at the front door with a minigun... no matter what they've punched his ticket. Why? because he didn't plan on getting caught so he carelessly kept using the same gun on every job, and made himself an easy target. God forbid he ever bled on an Ares site, then they have DNA and potentially a material link for ritual sorcery.

Casually dismissing the threat is one way to play, but its only scratching the surface of what can be done. Not every 'Run' (by that I mean game session) has to be 'Meet Johnson, accept job, do job, get paid/screwed, go home and spend karma'. Not by a long shot. You can build entire Runs (again, game sessions) around cleaning up from a messy job or setting up a system to maximize profit/diminish risk by quick and easy loot disposal. You can arrange Runs where the players are the targets, and have to survive and escape.

Or, you know, you can do like I mostly do, and just hang out, let the party leader do his thing, and shoot bad guys when necessary. I'm a gaming slut, I'm easy to please. That doesn't mean it isn't fun to explore the details. I just wish you (plural/royal you?) would quit defending yourselves, I'm not attacking you. Its a buffet, man, take what you like and leave the rest...

[Spike]

They hire runners because runners are disposable assets. So they could probably care less if you get arrested or not.

Debatable: Runners are disposable, certainly, but they can also be fonts of information about the Johnson if interrogated appropriately. Depending upon who picks them up, of course. Lonestar will just make examples of them on trideo in showtrials and execute them as terrorists/mass murderers in all liklihood. The targets of the last Run is more likely to give them the chance to earn their freedom by doing a run against the guys who hired them (steal BACk our prototype or your head goes pop).

Fun stuff.

[Guest_kuromu_*]

I can see getting rid of any gear that might have been involved in a compromised run, but otherwise it would be a waste.

Same with weapons. Ballistics only work against you if they know where the incriminating weapon is. Chances are, unless you are stupid and get pulled over for speeding with the gun in your trunk, once you are caught with said weapon you are already hosed. Sure, they can pin extra crimes onto the rap sheet. A true desperate 'Runner would either not be taken alive or try his damnedest to shoot their way out, either way the offending ballistics would not matter. Besides, would your ballistics information taken from one corporation's security team be available to another corp security team? Not everyone banks on Lonestar or Knight Errant for security and I am sure Shiawasee is not about to share intel with a possible competitor.

Now, however, some of my runners like getting licenses and permits for their 'favorites'. I mandate baseline ballistics analysis and recording to attain licenses for each weapon. If they are stupid enough to get caught using that weapon, well, then they get what they deserve.

Laundering money is one of those things that SHOULD be done. Most Johnsons (or Smiths and Heaths) will want to maintain good relations with a team if the run goes well, so they are not likely to mess with the money. Happy runners mean good reliable freelancers available in the future. If the run goes south, I can see the money being more likely to be tainted.

[kzt]

They hire runners because runners are disposable assets. So they could probably care less if you get arrested or not.

That would be true if the missions were set up in a rational fashion, but the typical SR approach the guys who just got arrested have information that can cause the Johnson major issues. Like pictures of him. And it's what they have to trade. So not getting the "disposable assets" arrested is extremely useful to the Johnson, as he probably doesn't consider himself a disposable asset.

[ICPick]

My team is well known for no unnecessary geeking. The team leader is an Alley Cat Shaman.... make it personal, and he' will geek you quite publicly, as a stupid message of hormonal dominance thing, but you'd be surprised how many corps are willing to write off losses when they don't include death benefits. It's the cost of doing business, and by going non-lethal, you are saving your target money. It's professionalism. The law never even gets involved if you do it right, because there is no way that Ares is going to Lonestar and telling them that the contingent of Knight Errant trained secmen got taken for the latest R+D info on a new type of *insert anything here*

Hell, I know people who are low-rent security guards... they go to work to put food on their kid's table. There is no reason to kill them when a stick and shock or a stunbolt will suffice.

Do it right and if they find out who you are, they hire you, not try to off you.