Recruiting: Down in the Gutter - Second Phase, Life in Redmond's Newest Street Gang Options

[Slipshade]

Well, I was about to give my 'Takes' a once over... but last I saw nobody even HAD takes on Maus... is it better to be unloved, or unheard of?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Maus was definitely a chopshop figure. I've put out that he actually lived in the shop. Definitely have to work in how he views the people who actually DROVE stuff. My instinct is 'necessary evil' but if I followed that I'd just be digging myself deeper in the hole on takes.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I think some of us have Takes ready. We just need to get your name on our takes pages. I also tend to wait until people have been officially accepted by WR1 before doing takes. But that is more of a guideline than a rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[lkim]

I was just reading 3rd edition SOTA 2064, and it said there are rule for BTL programing options in Cannon Companion p67-68. I don't have the book right now, but I'll be checking on it. Might be useful for house ruling the BTL production.

[Spike]

Just for the record I just did a bunch of bad ass takes on about half the page. Then I accidentally clicked on something and everything disappeared, so I'm back to the beggining. I'll re-do them sometime, maybe tonight, but I'm working extra late so I don't think I'll get to it, sadly.

-Spike, who is very frustrated and feels much like 'incompetence:computers is HIS flaw, and not his characters....

[Neuntöter]

hrm, took me some time (turns out Will held a few surprises, even for me) but i finally finished the 30s. Well, somewhat. I put the gear and housing ones on hold for now, since i haven't completely decided that yet and i skipped no. 20 since i seem to remember that that one was primarily for the recruits of the first round. But since i am also probably wrong about that, i am ready to get back to that one.

next up takes.

[Slipshade]

Just for the record I just did a bunch of bad ass takes on about half the page. Then I accidentally clicked on something and everything disappeared, so I'm back to the beggining. I'll re-do them sometime, maybe tonight, but I'm working extra late so I don't think I'll get to it, sadly.

-Spike, who is very frustrated and feels much like 'incompetence:computers is HIS flaw, and not his characters....

I feel for ya. I had just completed all of Baby's mechanics page and the entire thing disappeared. I will see if I can get it back for ya.

[HeySparky]

Yeah. I don't remember wikispaces being that flaky several months ago, but it's definitely flaky now. I recommend working outside in a stable app or periodically hitting alt-a, ctrl-c to 'back up' your stuff.

[Vegas]

Wikispaces has done a lot of "upgrades" as of late and it's gotten a lot more flaky because of it. However they are UBER fast to respond to problems when I email them about our wiki and tend to have it "fixed" within 2-6 hours max each and every time.

Spike-
I checked to see if I could revert your changes, but they apparently never got saved. I wonder if by accident you hit "cancel" instead of "save" (god knows I've done that more than a couple of times *grumbles) Sorry we can't find them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

lkim-
Sorry about the name thing, dully noted for future comments

[Vegas]

And I'm wondering why. I thought of credsticks are like "gift card," where once it is purchased with the money, it contains the cred or "money" in it. Which mean, credsticks only have to beat the reader's detection.
...
This, with the same reason as above, I disagree. Because, again, credsticks don't transfers the cred from the bank to the seller, but it goes from the cred in the credsticks to the seller.

The problem is, even if they were "gift cards" they'd have a specific number for an "account" that would be able to track how much cred remained on the stick. If that same number is being used in multiple locations MILES apart from one another then the system for tracking said cash (and purchases) would notice something was amiss and likely flag the account as "stolen" "hinky" or something else to freeze the account and not allow money to be spent off those sticks, effective invalidating the accounts on them till the "issue" was cleared up.

Counterfeiting credsticks are probably, and most likely, very time consuming. I was wondering the threshold and the period. Credsticks are pretty complex or even intricate device, so I would think that the threshold would be somewhere between 8-12? And, I'm guessing here, about 1 week period? Of course, like you said, it's WR1's final decision.

Most likely yes, it will be a time consuming process. Again since it's the GM's discretion, final time/numbers will have to come from WR1.

I was thinking of like contact 1/loyalty 2 contacts. I was thinking of around 5-6 ganger contacts from the various gangs whom I have somewhat regular interaction by me selling BTL/credsticks. They are lowest or lower rank in the gang, but they too know where someone higher ups are at or what are their motives or plans of their gang. Not extensively to every detail, but they might have heard the rumors within the gang.

Reason for asking this is that since I have been around the Redmond for least 10 years or so, moving here to there, by my background, I was wondering if I could work in the gang as reconnaissance personal, acting as if I still don't have any gang affiliation? (Which in that case, I'll have to drop some skills or stat to make BP for Social skills, but that's ok, I guess).

You can choose to make your contacts whomever you want, I just don't know that you'll get all the information out of them that you're hoping for each and every time you tap them as a resource. The 'Gate is rather small and contained, I'd guess most people who are any type of "player" in the gang scene have eyes on them for all sorts of reasons at any given time so it's doubtful that your "secret" of joining up with the Ravens would remain a secret for long, especially with the attention Legion garners throughout the 'Gate.

Well, thanks for the answer, if you get the final words from WR1, you'll post it right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Eyeless Blond]

And I'm wondering why. I thought of credsticks are like "gift card," where once it is purchased with the money, it contains the cred or "money" in it. Which mean, credsticks only have to beat the reader's detection.

This, with the same reason as above, I disagree. Because, again, credsticks don't transfers the cred from the bank to the seller, but it goes from the cred in the credsticks to the seller.

Ah, see here's the problem with that: credsticks have more security in them than your modern-day gift card. One of those security measures, as mentioned in the book, is that the credstick has a record of all transactions associated with the card (probably along with a cryptographically signed hash of the credstick number and the transaction text, though that part isn't mentioned). (Edit:)Okay, so this isn't mentioned specifically in the book, but it's the only way such a system could possibly work, and given that you have essentially infinite storage in a credstick there's no reason not to. Thus, the moment the stick "phones home" and the bank notices that the stick's transaction history doesn't mesh with its own, there's a problem.

This means that, if you've copied a credstick, either the original XOR (eXclusive OR) the copy can be used freely. However, once the other credstick is used, the transactions from the other copy won't be present on the second one, and an error is thrown, rejecting the stick. It's really the only way for credsticks to work in the future, where data is flying hither and yon all the time.

[Vegas]

Thanks Eyeless... MUCH better put than my crappy, non-technical explanation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Spike]

I don't know exactly what happened, but I wasn't hoping for a save (sadly...). I was working with two windows open, one to read up on each PC, the other open edit. I went to click on the read window and accidentally clicked the edit window and it wiped out everything, leaving me a blank page. I was able, thankfully, to save the original window, but the unsaved new text (about an hour and a half of creative writing work...) was just.... gone.

I should posit some philisophical tidbit about how this represents the ephemeral nature of life or something, but frankly its all just Dust in the Wind at this point. Just as Socrates.

I was down to RICO fer bogs sake. I KNEW my character's instinctive dislike was valid... he killed my work! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[WinterRat1]

Also, you have to remember credsticks are NOT just giftcards/credit cards. They’re your social security card, drivers’ license, passport, birth certificate, medical history, etc. In short, a financial and legal history of your life. Good luck faking all that and getting away with it for an extended period of time against any decent verification systems.

That’s why all SR literature repeatedly refers to any reliable faked credstick as only doable by entire organizations which have the resources to insert all the necessary bits of corroborating data into numerous databases worldwide.

Of course you can still fake credsticks on a small time scale, but it’s the difference between your local college buddy making you a fake ID for the purpose of getting into a bar versus a crime syndicate making you an ID to pass a background check by the Secret Service. Could the crime syndicate’s ID get you into the fake bar? Sure. You wanna try the college buddy’s ID against the Secret Service? Not so much…

Incidentally, that's also why runners tend to have multiple Fake ID's, because they discard them quite frequently as discrepancies arise.

So in equivalent terms, your forged credsticks probably can get the job done in Kingsgate, and maybe even the seedier parts of Redmond. Trying to use it in the Renraku Arcology will get you somewhere all right, but I guarantee it’s not where you want to go.

Certified Credsticks are what you’re probably thinking of when you use the comparison to gift cards, and those are pure credit, which while not easy to fake in the sense that you can’t just ‘generate’ money very easily due to earlier points raised by Eyeless, Vegas, and Slipshade, are considerably easier (by orders of magnitude) to fake than a registered credstick, which has all of the above mentioned data on it.

[Eyeless Blond]

Also, you have to remember credsticks are NOT just giftcards/credit cards. They’re your social security card, drivers’ license, passport, birth certificate, medical history, etc. In short, a financial and legal history of your life. Good luck faking all that and getting away with it for an extended period of time against any decent verification systems.

Not anymore; that's all commlink IDs now. ID-enabled regular credsticks no longer exist, according to the SR4 main book; it's all either ID on commlink, or certified credstick.

Yeah, I think it's silly too, but there you go.

Oh, and I do all my posting--message boards, emails, and now Wiki-materials--on Notepad, or, more recently, Notepad++. Much less likely to randomly crash on me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I'm afraid a certified credstick is the one area where all those unscrupulous corporations are guaranteed to start actually paying attention when you offer to run your info by them. I'm sure the guy behind the counter at Weapons World doesn't really care if your SIN is legit if you've got a certified credstick, all he asks is that your SIN appears legit enough that he can cover his ass and claim everything looked like it was going to check out if by some freakish occurance the 'Star or whoever actually get on his case for selling things to the SINless (it's not hard to imagine that retailers bear less responsibility in the Sixth World; I mean, hell, if corps can win extraterritoriality...). After all, the corporations know that the SINless are out there, and by Dunkelzahn, they're going to sell them things if they can! In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a big source of the lower grade black market SINs out there are the corps themselves. There's no way they can stop counterfeiting completely, but at least by selling SINs they can get a piece of the pie, since in most cases the corps are really just selling people the right to buy corp goods and services. But certified credsticks? Those are always going to have the best security features available, since there's no way of profiting from a guy whose money is no good.

[lkim]

Also, you have to remember credsticks are NOT just giftcards/credit cards. They’re your social security card, drivers’ license, passport, birth certificate, medical history, etc. In short, a financial and legal history of your life. Good luck faking all that and getting away with it for an extended period of time against any decent verification systems.

the credstick has a record of all transactions associated with the card

Here's quote from the book.

P.322
The modern version of cash or bearer bonds, certified credsticks are not registered to any specific person—the electronic funds encoded on it belongs
to whomever hold it. Certified cred requires no ID or authorization to transfer or use.
P.259
It used to be that one’s SIN and other forms of identification were all stored on credsticks, pen-sized tubes that served simultaneously as ID and credit card. Since the Matrix went wireless, however, all of this information was transferred to the commlink, and credsticks only survive as certified but relatively anonymous means of payment.

With those features, mentioned by WR1, it would be just '60s. Plus, no one, at least anyone in the shadow, would use it anyway if it can be tracted down to the owner. Mr. Johnson wouldn't pay the 'runners with certified credsticks, if he/she knows it could be tracted down to him/her.

And, yes, I was talking about certified credsticks, since, as mentioned in the book, credsticks only survive as certified.

It may, probably will, stores data of how much cred it have left in the card, but I wouldn't think it stores all the record of transactions, nor transfer the data to the bank or corp using its "account" or "serial number". Because it wouldn't have that info in the credstick to be anonymous. Well, think about it it may have "serial number" of sort, so if one had it, but then lost it, ownner can freeze any activities in that certified credstick. But I still wouldn't think it may send the info to the bank or whatnot.

[Dantic]

Twiggs doesn't understand all this hoopla over forging and trying to counterfit creds.
"We going big time now eh? Hell sign me up for the penthouse! This is the gutter, and I thought we are a gang? You want something? You snatch, sneak, or demand it outright. You going to spend thousands in hard grubbed drug monies trying to set up a high end forging and counterfiting operation? Guess we can all sleep on top of the server banks." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[lkim]

Well, it's because I want to counterfeiting credstick. It would be helpful for the whole gang, if it becomes possible. Not even using it, because, hell, you keep using counterfeit cred in your neighbor, no one would accept your cred. But selling it for 500 neuyen which have, say 1000 neuyen, in the credstick to fencer, so he could sell it for 8-900 neuyen to some other guy? That's big profit for both me and the fencer.

[Dantic]

One of the biggest problems with forging/copying credsticks (which only exist as certified in SR4) is the hardware, unless you manage to rip off a bank shipment of uncoded sticks, you have to make them yourself. This means using an electronics shop to produce them one at a time, or a facility if you are going to mass produce them. In addition the money doesn't just appear out of thin air, credsticks are not registered to a particular ID but they do have an issuing authority (bank, corp, nation). So even after getting the hardware, hacking someone's legitimate credstick, copying it, and heading out on your spending spree, if the original stick gets used at some point in a separate part of town within a certain time frame, then the issuing authority will know. Forgery and Counterfeiting is nasty biz, and if you fall back on it too much, especially without being able to spread the electronic trail out over a large area. Eventually someone will come looking for you, and if all your activities have been restricted to the barrens and touristville, they will know where to look. That being said, it's ultimately up to the GM as to how difficult it is to pull this stuff off.

<EDIT> Back to the "Gift Card" example. A reloadable gift card for say ten dollars doesn't have a physical ten dollar bill stuffed into the mag strip on the back, it just contains a serial number that the store's computer ties to a transaction record showing that you added ten dollars at some point, and it will now subtract the amount of your purchase and keep up with it like a mini account, you don't have your picture on the gift card, and it doesn't require and ID to use, but it is tracked everytime you use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Vegas]

lkim -

The question becomes where did you get the cred that you're "Counterfeiting" in the first place as you CANNOT create something out of nothing. Counterfeiting in the book is COYPING an existing credstick and making a clone. If you don't have a credstick with valid cred on it, your desire to counterfeit if pointless.

Also who in Kingsgate is going to buy a counterfeit stick that has a good chance of failing. Who is going to take that risk of their cred for a limited gain, except someone with a gambling addiction.

[lkim]

Ok, again there's "thin air" thing.

Certified credsticks are like cash in the '70s. Right now, there are people making counterfeiting cash out of "thin air." So, I know I'm over simplifying this matter, but if certified credstick are like cash, why can't it be counterfeited out of "thin air" just like today? Tech, of course will be advanced in '70s for protection against it, but so does the counterfeiting tech.

And yes, it's up to WR1. I'm just trying to reason it a bit.

[Dantic]

Ok, again there's "thin air" thing.

Certified credsticks are like cash in the '70s. Right now, there are people making counterfeiting cash out of "thin air." So, I know I'm over simplifying this matter, but if certified credstick are like cash, why can't it be counterfeited out of "thin air" just like today? Tech, of course will be advanced in '70s for protection against it, but so does the counterfeiting tech.

They are not like cash, cash still exists. They are more like a money order or certified check. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[lkim]

P.322
The modern version of cash or bearer bonds, certified credsticks are not registered to any specific person—the electronic funds encoded on it belongs to whomever hold it. Certified cred requires no ID or authorization to transfer or use.

I'm not sure what the bearer bonds are, honestly, but it does state it's like modern version of cash.

[WinterRat1]

One of the biggest problems with forging/copying credsticks (which only exist as certified in SR4) is the hardware, unless you manage to rip off a bank shipment of uncoded sticks, you have to make them yourself. This means using an electronics shop to produce them one at a time, or a facility if you are going to mass produce them. In addition the money doesn't just appear out of thin air, credsticks are not registered to a particular ID but they do have an issuing authority (bank, corp, nation). So even after getting the hardware, hacking someone's legitimate credstick, copying it, and heading out on your spending spree, if the original stick gets used at some point in a separate part of town within a certain time frame, then the issuing authority will know. Forgery and Counterfeiting is nasty biz, and if you fall back on it too much, especially without being able to spread the electronic trail out over a large area. Eventually someone will come looking for you, and if all your activities have been restricted to the barrens and touristville, they will know where to look. That being said, it's ultimately up to the GM as to how difficult it is to pull this stuff off.

<EDIT> Back to the "Gift Card" example. A reloadable gift card for say ten dollars doesn't have a physical ten dollar bill stuffed into the mag strip on the back, it just contains a serial number that the store's computer ties to a transaction record showing that you added ten dollars at some point, and it will now subtract the amount of your purchase and keep up with it like a mini account, you don't have your picture on the gift card, and it doesn't require and ID to use, but it is tracked everytime you use it.

They are not like cash, cash still exist. They are more like a money order or certified check.

Dantic is dead on.

Certified credsticks are like cash in the '70s. Right now, there are people making counterfeiting cash out of "thin air." So, I know I'm over simplifying this matter, but if certified credstick are like cash, why can't it be counterfeited out of "thin air" just like today? Tech, of course will be advanced in '70s for protection against it, but so does the counterfeiting tech.

This argument misses two key points:

1. Cash has a method of being tracked. Serial numbers on the bills. The problem is the technology to track them in 'real time'. Electronic credit does not have that problem. If you put 1000 nuyen on a credit, someone has to be accountable for where it came from. Someone has to make good on that. If that basic trust isn't there, the whole electronic currency system collapses. Given that tracking electronic currency can be near instantaneous, and given that there's every reason to need to do so, there's no way financial institutions wouldn't.

2. If it was that easy to just give yourself money out of thin air, why wouldn't everyone do it? It's not that easy and it's not that practical, especially for a scum of the earth gutterpunk hiding out in Kingsgate. And there's a lot of legal, technical, practical, etc. safeguards as to why that is that we're not going to waste any more time discussing.

Bottom line so we can all move forward: The BTL production thing is fine, the one man counterfeiting operation is just not going to be a viable activity.

[Eyeless Blond]

Indeed, cash in the 2070s just doesn't exist. Oh, sure, certified cred is the future equivalent to cash today, but only because cash cards haven't really caught on everywhere yet. By the '70s all cash will be kept, safe and secure, in liquid money market accounts, that you access through check cards called credsticks, or through your own accounts. In other words, you don't actually carry any of your cash; the bank has all of it, and shuffles it to another bank (or maybe another account in the same bank) when you pay someone. Since all your money is perpetually invested in liquid money market accounts you never have to worry about inflation; the bank will take care of you by ensuring that your earned interest on every account exactly equals inflation, and the Corporate Court revalues the nuyen constantly to ensure that you always have the same amount of money in your accounts, forever. No more worrying about loss of value due to inflation. No more dealing with all those math problems associated with inflation, or earned interest. The banks, and their corporate backers, take care of all of that, transparently, so 1 nuyen now is the same as 1 nuyen next week, next year, next century.

And the fact that this is all a giant scam only makes it more delicious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Whipstitch]

In all honesty, I'm really happy we won't be doing much in the way of counterfeiting. It really is for the best. If WR1 was OK with us counterfeiting, I'd be quite frankly terrified because there's no way in hell we'd survive if it was decided that Lone Star got even a whiff of any activity big enough to be truly worthwhile. You can get away with a lot in this world at times, but counterfeiting has historically been a great way to get killed by the authorities. I mean, I realize that we're out in the Barrens, but currency is always one of those things taken deadly seriously, and we're basically a bunch of ants.