Israeli Drones Options

[klinktastic]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080304/ap_on_...l_deadly_drones

Pretty cool stuff.

This post has been edited by Redjack: Mar 5 2008, 12:58 AM

Reason for edit: Flagged as RL

[Chrome Tiger]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080304/ap_on_...l_deadly_drones

Pretty cool stuff.

Very cool. Remote controlled and semi-autonomous drones are an incredible technological addition to any armed force. Recon, air support, etc, all without risking personnel. Even when they are expensive, they are still cheaper than the cost of an airplane and the time/cost involved to train the people inside that plane.

That and it is hi-tech. How can ya not like gadgets!?!?

[Earlydawn]

I've heard that the majority of deep-strike aircraft will be automated by 2015. Makes sense to me.. I'd guess the drones are more expensive, but the lack of pilot costs more than offsets that..

[jago668]

Well compare to a pilot and plane. They are cheap, not to mention that if one gets shot down you don't lose a pilot. He just loads up another drone into his console and goes again. It allows you to use a great pilot in a very suicidal style mission, again and again.

[Feshy]

I've heard that the majority of deep-strike aircraft will be automated by 2015. Makes sense to me.. I'd guess the drones are more expensive, but the lack of pilot costs more than offsets that..

More expensive? Try cheaper by a factor of 100, 1,000, or more. Have you seen the price tag on an F-22 or even a loaded out F-16? Yikes! It's so extreme that if the US Air Force went to war with pretty much the entire world's air force, and managed to win without a single loss, training accidents and routine malfunctions / errors / wtf would still put us on the loosing end financially. No drone costs anywhere near that. Now, whether this is because no lives are at stake, or because they aren't giant flying phalic sym... er, "symbols of national pride" I'll leave up to your cynicism to decide.

[Chrome Tiger]

As much as I looooooooove the F-14 Tomcat... I would love to be an armchair drone pilot...

[Method]

Imagine if the automated piloting computer were sophisticated to pilot the thing to the target and home. A single pilot could "jump into" a string of different drones and perform a continuous string of missions without having to "return to base" to reload or refuel.

"Looks like drone 3 is out of ordinance. Initiating homing sequence. E.T.A. on drone 4 is two minutes... grab be another cup of coffee."

[Feshy]

Imagine if the automated piloting computer were sophisticated to pilot the thing to the target and home. A single pilot could "jump into" a string of different drones and perform a continuous string of missions without having to "return to base" to reload or refuel.

"Looks like drone 3 is out of ordinance. Initiating homing sequence. E.T.A. on drone 4 is two minutes... grab be another cup of coffee."

Imagine? That's the easy part. Drones have been doing that for quite some time. At least, from the aspect of auto-piloted drones -- I don't know about the consecutive missions for pilots like that.

[Earlydawn]

More expensive? Try cheaper by a factor of 100, 1,000, or more. Have you seen the price tag on an F-22 or even a loaded out F-16? Yikes! It's so extreme that if the US Air Force went to war with pretty much the entire world's air force, and managed to win without a single loss, training accidents and routine malfunctions / errors / wtf would still put us on the loosing end financially. No drone costs anywhere near that. Now, whether this is because no lives are at stake, or because they aren't giant flying phalic sym... er, "symbols of national pride" I'll leave up to your cynicism to decide.

Indeed. I figured that when drones hit the point where they're less about station keeping and more like fully autonomous aircraft, they might hit the same costs. I'm thinking less Predator or Global Hawk, and more like EDI from Stealth. I'll still take cheaper, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I doubt it'll last, though. The government doesn't get anything cheap. Once the Military Industrial Complex gets with the program, I'm sure you'll see those prices skyrocket.

[hermit]

A Predator isn't even armed. The Wraith, it's armed brother, isn't quite a remote Raptor. either It's more like a remote little Cessna outfitted with two Hellfires or two machine guns. It's rather slow and vulnerable - you could propably down it, given a decent hit, with an anverage hunting rifle. Sure, the thing's rather silent, and if the Pilot makes good use of Terrain and catches you with your proverbial pants down, you're done for. But it's in no way able to hold itself against ANY serious combat aircraft.

And a serious, Raptor-like combat drone would propably cost nearly as much as one of these planes. The advantages would rather be a much increased maneuverability (making it potentially unbeatable in dogfights), lower profile thanks to a lack of cockpit and thus better chances of evading Radar, and yes, disposability (and thus a more reckless deployment of those drones) also is a factor. However, there's yet to be an operational model of these.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The Baracuda is still cheaper than the average jet.

[hermit]

Yes. It also is a recon drone, meaning it doesn't have the payload, complex avionics and robust frame of a true fighter drone.

Also, for all I know, it is a technology demonstrator? Or have they changed plans and are producing those birds now? If so, who's buying them?

[Chrome Tiger]

A Predator isn't even armed. The Wraith, it's armed brother, isn't quite a remote Raptor. either It's more like a remote little Cessna outfitted with two Hellfires or two machine guns. It's rather slow and vulnerable - you could propably down it, given a decent hit, with an anverage hunting rifle. Sure, the thing's rather silent, and if the Pilot makes good use of Terrain and catches you with your proverbial pants down, you're done for. But it's in no way able to hold itself against ANY serious combat aircraft.

Actually, the MQ-1 Predator carries a couple Hellfire missiles and a pretty advanced targeting system. Equipped with an upgraded turbine, so it can get up and go a litttle quicker. They run about $40M compared to say, a Raptor, which is $160M (Not including pilot training cost, salary, etc).

And it looks like the drones are actually, per unit, more expensive than some of the older jets like the F-15 and F-16, in some cases twice as much. But again, that pilot factor is huge. True, a drone pilot would require training as well, but if the drone gets shot down that training time does not get lost.

Link here

[hermit]

Actually, the MQ-1 Predator carries a couple Hellfire missiles and a pretty advanced targeting system.

Isn't that the Reaper (not Wraith, as I thought it was called), MQ-9B?

Maintainance also is a huge cost factor with drones. Plus, with Predator variants, you still need a pilot. The pilot just isn't present IN the plane. But yeah. The pilot's training isn't lost when the drone is.

[Chrome Tiger]

Isn't that the Reaper (not Wraith, as I thought it was called), MQ-9B?

Maintainance also is a huge cost factor with drones. Plus, with Predator variants, you still need a pilot. The pilot just isn't present IN the plane. But yeah. The pilot's training isn't lost when the drone is.

Actually, the MQ-9 Reaper has a couple more options for armament than the Raptor, but they are both armed drones. Reaper just a little more so with the added capability of carrying guided munitions.

[nezumi]

Plus these drones have a much kinder carbon footprint!

[hermit]

Nothing like eco-friendly wars.

[kzt]

Actually, the MQ-9 Reaper has a couple more options for armament than the Raptor, but they are both armed drones. Reaper just a little more so with the added capability of carrying guided munitions.

Reaper carries a lot more ordinance and flies a lot higher. Like 20,000 feet. It's also quite a bit more expensive.

[Chrome Tiger]

Reaper carries a lot more ordinance and flies a lot higher. Like 20,000 feet. It's also quite a bit more expensive.

Yeah, like $20M more. All the high-altitude flying and long distance GBU striking capability must be made of gold-plated parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

Yeah, like $20M more. All the high-altitude flying and long distance GBU striking capability must be made of gold-plated parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Part of it is that everyone wants the most advanced stuff, and the other part is that they don't want to order enough to set up a high volume production line. Consider the cost of a Dell laptop if Dell only make 1000 instead of a million. You have to amortize the cost of the production line and R&D over a lot fewer items, plus greatly increased hand labor by experts, so your cost would probably go from $800 to $80,000.

[Chrome Tiger]

Part of it is that everyone wants the most advanced stuff, and the other part is that they don't want to order enough to set up a high volume production line. Consider the cost of a Dell laptop if Dell only make 1000 instead of a million. You have to amortize the cost of the production line and R&D over a lot fewer items, plus greatly increased hand labor by experts, so your cost would probably go from $800 to $80,000.

Oh, I know the military hardware pricing game. I was just being snarky with the gold-plated thing. Working with computers and electronics in the Navy for 8 years and having to requisition various components, I have learned that nothing in the military or government gets an average market price.

[hermit]

Oh, I know the military hardware pricing game. I was just being snarky with the gold-plated thing. Working with computers and electronics in the Navy for 8 years and having to requisition various components, I have learned that nothing in the military or government gets an average market price.

As KZT said, Drones aren't really mass production vehicles, but more like limited-series super sports cars. those cost premium too.

[Kyoto Kid]

...yep seems like things have come a long way since the Chuck Yeager days. What was that term coined back during the last Bush Admin? "Nintendo Wars?"

Chrome Tiger: "Big Tom" was impressive to watch but for style points I'll still take a P-51D with the supercharged Merlin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hobgoblin]

the trick to making them cheap is to built them from of the shelf parts.

sadly, weapon control systems and military quality sensor systems are not exactly of the shelf...

[Chrome Tiger]

...yep seems like things have come a long way since the Chuck Yeager days. What was that term coined back during the last Bush Admin? "Nintendo Wars?"

Chrome Tiger: "Big Tom" was impressive to watch but for style points I'll still take a P-51D with the supercharged Merlin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Nothing beat hopping down the street to Pensacola NAS to watch launch training off the Lex. That and every Wednesday at 8am, the Blue Angels would buzz our base on routine. Not 14s, but still an awesome sight. P-51s are up on my list of favs with the F-86, F-14, and F-4. Pretty much in that order.

Sooo. Anyone want to wager how long it will be before the Raptors and Reapers are upgraded to full-sized multi-role fighters?