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klinktastic
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080304/ap_on_...l_deadly_drones

Pretty cool stuff.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (klinktastic @ Mar 3 2008, 09:43 PM) *


Very cool. Remote controlled and semi-autonomous drones are an incredible technological addition to any armed force. Recon, air support, etc, all without risking personnel. Even when they are expensive, they are still cheaper than the cost of an airplane and the time/cost involved to train the people inside that plane.

That and it is hi-tech. How can ya not like gadgets!?!?
Earlydawn
I've heard that the majority of deep-strike aircraft will be automated by 2015. Makes sense to me.. I'd guess the drones are more expensive, but the lack of pilot costs more than offsets that..
jago668
Well compare to a pilot and plane. They are cheap, not to mention that if one gets shot down you don't lose a pilot. He just loads up another drone into his console and goes again. It allows you to use a great pilot in a very suicidal style mission, again and again.
Feshy
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Mar 3 2008, 10:53 PM) *
I've heard that the majority of deep-strike aircraft will be automated by 2015. Makes sense to me.. I'd guess the drones are more expensive, but the lack of pilot costs more than offsets that..


More expensive? Try cheaper by a factor of 100, 1,000, or more. Have you seen the price tag on an F-22 or even a loaded out F-16? Yikes! It's so extreme that if the US Air Force went to war with pretty much the entire world's air force, and managed to win without a single loss, training accidents and routine malfunctions / errors / wtf would still put us on the loosing end financially. No drone costs anywhere near that. Now, whether this is because no lives are at stake, or because they aren't giant flying phalic sym... er, "symbols of national pride" I'll leave up to your cynicism to decide.
Chrome Tiger
As much as I looooooooove the F-14 Tomcat... I would love to be an armchair drone pilot...
Method
Imagine if the automated piloting computer were sophisticated to pilot the thing to the target and home. A single pilot could "jump into" a string of different drones and perform a continuous string of missions without having to "return to base" to reload or refuel.

"Looks like drone 3 is out of ordinance. Initiating homing sequence. E.T.A. on drone 4 is two minutes... grab be another cup of coffee."
Feshy
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 4 2008, 12:01 AM) *
Imagine if the automated piloting computer were sophisticated to pilot the thing to the target and home. A single pilot could "jump into" a string of different drones and perform a continuous string of missions without having to "return to base" to reload or refuel.

"Looks like drone 3 is out of ordinance. Initiating homing sequence. E.T.A. on drone 4 is two minutes... grab be another cup of coffee."


Imagine? That's the easy part. Drones have been doing that for quite some time. At least, from the aspect of auto-piloted drones -- I don't know about the consecutive missions for pilots like that.
Earlydawn
QUOTE (Feshy @ Mar 3 2008, 11:30 PM) *
More expensive? Try cheaper by a factor of 100, 1,000, or more. Have you seen the price tag on an F-22 or even a loaded out F-16? Yikes! It's so extreme that if the US Air Force went to war with pretty much the entire world's air force, and managed to win without a single loss, training accidents and routine malfunctions / errors / wtf would still put us on the loosing end financially. No drone costs anywhere near that. Now, whether this is because no lives are at stake, or because they aren't giant flying phalic sym... er, "symbols of national pride" I'll leave up to your cynicism to decide.
Indeed. I figured that when drones hit the point where they're less about station keeping and more like fully autonomous aircraft, they might hit the same costs. I'm thinking less Predator or Global Hawk, and more like EDI from Stealth. I'll still take cheaper, though. grinbig.gif

I doubt it'll last, though. The government doesn't get anything cheap. Once the Military Industrial Complex gets with the program, I'm sure you'll see those prices skyrocket.
hermit
A Predator isn't even armed. The Wraith, it's armed brother, isn't quite a remote Raptor. either It's more like a remote little Cessna outfitted with two Hellfires or two machine guns. It's rather slow and vulnerable - you could propably down it, given a decent hit, with an anverage hunting rifle. Sure, the thing's rather silent, and if the Pilot makes good use of Terrain and catches you with your proverbial pants down, you're done for. But it's in no way able to hold itself against ANY serious combat aircraft.

And a serious, Raptor-like combat drone would propably cost nearly as much as one of these planes. The advantages would rather be a much increased maneuverability (making it potentially unbeatable in dogfights), lower profile thanks to a lack of cockpit and thus better chances of evading Radar, and yes, disposability (and thus a more reckless deployment of those drones) also is a factor. However, there's yet to be an operational model of these.
Rotbart van Dainig
The Baracuda is still cheaper than the average jet.
hermit
Yes. It also is a recon drone, meaning it doesn't have the payload, complex avionics and robust frame of a true fighter drone.

Also, for all I know, it is a technology demonstrator? Or have they changed plans and are producing those birds now? If so, who's buying them?
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 4 2008, 05:57 AM) *
A Predator isn't even armed. The Wraith, it's armed brother, isn't quite a remote Raptor. either It's more like a remote little Cessna outfitted with two Hellfires or two machine guns. It's rather slow and vulnerable - you could propably down it, given a decent hit, with an anverage hunting rifle. Sure, the thing's rather silent, and if the Pilot makes good use of Terrain and catches you with your proverbial pants down, you're done for. But it's in no way able to hold itself against ANY serious combat aircraft.


Actually, the MQ-1 Predator carries a couple Hellfire missiles and a pretty advanced targeting system. Equipped with an upgraded turbine, so it can get up and go a litttle quicker. They run about $40M compared to say, a Raptor, which is $160M (Not including pilot training cost, salary, etc).

And it looks like the drones are actually, per unit, more expensive than some of the older jets like the F-15 and F-16, in some cases twice as much. But again, that pilot factor is huge. True, a drone pilot would require training as well, but if the drone gets shot down that training time does not get lost.

Link here


hermit
QUOTE
Actually, the MQ-1 Predator carries a couple Hellfire missiles and a pretty advanced targeting system.

Isn't that the Reaper (not Wraith, as I thought it was called), MQ-9B?

Maintainance also is a huge cost factor with drones. Plus, with Predator variants, you still need a pilot. The pilot just isn't present IN the plane. But yeah. The pilot's training isn't lost when the drone is.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 4 2008, 08:23 AM) *
Isn't that the Reaper (not Wraith, as I thought it was called), MQ-9B?

Maintainance also is a huge cost factor with drones. Plus, with Predator variants, you still need a pilot. The pilot just isn't present IN the plane. But yeah. The pilot's training isn't lost when the drone is.


Actually, the MQ-9 Reaper has a couple more options for armament than the Raptor, but they are both armed drones. Reaper just a little more so with the added capability of carrying guided munitions.
nezumi
Plus these drones have a much kinder carbon footprint!
hermit
Nothing like eco-friendly wars.
kzt
QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Mar 4 2008, 06:33 AM) *
Actually, the MQ-9 Reaper has a couple more options for armament than the Raptor, but they are both armed drones. Reaper just a little more so with the added capability of carrying guided munitions.

Reaper carries a lot more ordinance and flies a lot higher. Like 20,000 feet. It's also quite a bit more expensive.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 4 2008, 11:56 AM) *
Reaper carries a lot more ordinance and flies a lot higher. Like 20,000 feet. It's also quite a bit more expensive.


Yeah, like $20M more. All the high-altitude flying and long distance GBU striking capability must be made of gold-plated parts. wink.gif

kzt
QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Mar 4 2008, 10:02 AM) *
Yeah, like $20M more. All the high-altitude flying and long distance GBU striking capability must be made of gold-plated parts. wink.gif

Part of it is that everyone wants the most advanced stuff, and the other part is that they don't want to order enough to set up a high volume production line. Consider the cost of a Dell laptop if Dell only make 1000 instead of a million. You have to amortize the cost of the production line and R&D over a lot fewer items, plus greatly increased hand labor by experts, so your cost would probably go from $800 to $80,000.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 4 2008, 12:18 PM) *
Part of it is that everyone wants the most advanced stuff, and the other part is that they don't want to order enough to set up a high volume production line. Consider the cost of a Dell laptop if Dell only make 1000 instead of a million. You have to amortize the cost of the production line and R&D over a lot fewer items, plus greatly increased hand labor by experts, so your cost would probably go from $800 to $80,000.


Oh, I know the military hardware pricing game. I was just being snarky with the gold-plated thing. Working with computers and electronics in the Navy for 8 years and having to requisition various components, I have learned that nothing in the military or government gets an average market price.
hermit
QUOTE
Oh, I know the military hardware pricing game. I was just being snarky with the gold-plated thing. Working with computers and electronics in the Navy for 8 years and having to requisition various components, I have learned that nothing in the military or government gets an average market price.

As KZT said, Drones aren't really mass production vehicles, but more like limited-series super sports cars. those cost premium too.
Kyoto Kid
...yep seems like things have come a long way since the Chuck Yeager days. What was that term coined back during the last Bush Admin? "Nintendo Wars?"

Chrome Tiger: "Big Tom" was impressive to watch but for style points I'll still take a P-51D with the supercharged Merlin. grinbig.gif
hobgoblin
the trick to making them cheap is to built them from of the shelf parts.

sadly, weapon control systems and military quality sensor systems are not exactly of the shelf...
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 4 2008, 04:21 PM) *
...yep seems like things have come a long way since the Chuck Yeager days. What was that term coined back during the last Bush Admin? "Nintendo Wars?"

Chrome Tiger: "Big Tom" was impressive to watch but for style points I'll still take a P-51D with the supercharged Merlin. grinbig.gif


Nothing beat hopping down the street to Pensacola NAS to watch launch training off the Lex. That and every Wednesday at 8am, the Blue Angels would buzz our base on routine. Not 14s, but still an awesome sight. P-51s are up on my list of favs with the F-86, F-14, and F-4. Pretty much in that order.

Sooo. Anyone want to wager how long it will be before the Raptors and Reapers are upgraded to full-sized multi-role fighters?
hermit
It's in the works. EADS has it's Neuron project, the US have several (Corvus, X-45 and another one), and any number of Nations are also developing unmanned fighters (among them Saab of Sweden).

Those birds won't be better, faster Predators though. Those will be an entirely different type of combat drone.
Spike
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 4 2008, 01:26 PM) *
the trick to making them cheap is to built them from of the shelf parts.

sadly, weapon control systems and military quality sensor systems are not exactly of the shelf...



There is a wonderful article out there in internet land showing exactly why NASA is screwing us over on the cost of space missions by doing this 'one mission a year' crap by comparing the cost of the V2 rocket, accounting for inflation.

The reason these things cost so much is the parts aren't off the shelf. The reason the parts aren't 'off the shelf' is that few are made. The reason few are made is that they cost so much.



See the cycle? If we started making them in bulk the average cost would drop like the proverbial rock.
hermit
QUOTE
There is a wonderful article out there in internet land showing exactly why NASA is screwing us over on the cost of space missions by doing this 'one mission a year' crap by comparing the cost of the V2 rocket, accounting for inflation.

Oh? Yeah, too bad NASA doesn't use forced labour to cut down on production costs ...

QUOTE
See the cycle? If we started making them in bulk the average cost would drop like the proverbial rock.

Sure. And who would buy all these combat drones? Would it be in the US' interests that anyone could have cutting edge combat drones? Possibly even evil terrorists? Not quite.
Serial_Peacemaker
I think even with lowered prices most terrorists would have a hard time running sophisticated combat drones. Also if you can buy five planes for the price of one I think you would do so. After all the Pentagon always invasions a lot of planes it seems, and then cuts back because they cost an arm, leg, and first born child apiece.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Spike @ Mar 5 2008, 12:12 AM) *
There is a wonderful article out there in internet land showing exactly why NASA is screwing us over on the cost of space missions by doing this 'one mission a year' crap by comparing the cost of the V2 rocket, accounting for inflation.


i think i read a story ones where von braun was talking to the leading german engineers about a pump he needed to handle the fuel flow of the V2 engine.

after he had described what kind of forces he needed that pump to deal with, they replied that what he had just described was a ordinary fire engine pump.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Mar 4 2008, 01:31 PM) *
Nothing beat hopping down the street to Pensacola NAS to watch launch training off the Lex. That and every Wednesday at 8am, the Blue Angels would buzz our base on routine. Not 14s, but still an awesome sight. P-51s are up on my list of favs with the F-86, F-14, and F-4. Pretty much in that order.

...I remember the Wisconsin International Airshow of '69 (not to be confused with the the big EAA extravaganza in Oshkosh). That year both the Angels and the T-Birds were on the same show ticket, & it was the first year both teams flew the F-4. The 'Birds announced their arrival by coming in almost at treetop level down my street (we lived in the approach path to the main north south runway) and igniting the afterburners to do a steep climb-out. (thank the goddess they didn't have car alarms back then). That was one heck of and air show that year (Milwaukee was seriously campaigning against Washington DC for the US International Airshow that would trade off with the famed Paris event). Anyways both teams put on incredible displays with those big noisy planes as if trying to outdo each other. Alas Mom Nature had the final say the last (and usually biggest) day of the show when a front of severe thunderstorms grounded both teams forcing cancellation of their performances (the first ever by weather for for the Angels I believe ).

...OK reminiscing time over.

...now back to killer "R/C" airplanes.

[/Derail]
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 4 2008, 09:20 PM) *

...now back to killer "R/C" airplanes.
[/Derail]


Heh, what you just said reminds me of the game I've been playing a bit on the Frontlines: Fuel of War on the xbox 360 and one of the roles you can select is the drone tech. The Red Star Alliance side has basically an RC copter with a bomb attached to it. The second level is an RC car (the one that can be flipped over and still keep going) with a bigger bomb, the last level is a the RC copter again but this time with mini rocket launchers. hee.
I just love this one, compared to the Western Coalition side, they have a flying drone bomb, a mini tank with gatling gun, and a minitank with a four barreled mortar launcher.

ok, I'll stop the derail now.
hermit
The little Red Star RC car makes a damn good image for the Gaz-Niki Snooper drone, if you ask me. The WA minitanks make decent Doberman variants.

I also love the WA recon/suicide attack flyer. I even built it according to R3R rules. Cute thingy.

The idea of Drone Technican in Frontlines is very appealing. Nicely done too ...

Hey, can you get me screens of the WA air defense tank and fighter jet, and the Red Star fighter jet, scout car and apc?

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On Topic (Sort of):

QUOTE
I think even with lowered prices most terrorists would have a hard time running sophisticated combat drones. Also if you can buy five planes for the price of one I think you would do so. After all the Pentagon always invasions a lot of planes it seems, and then cuts back because they cost an arm, leg, and first born child apiece.

... and it costs arms, legs and firstborns because the Pentagon wants all those extra gimmicks like RAM coating, light carbon fibre frames, and all the drivers, electronics and whatnot for their smart biombs and missiles, and so on ...

Also, the V2 was horribly ureliable and, though that mechanic flight control was clever, it was so slow none would get past modern fighter jets. The V2 was reasonably effective (though actually, it's use didn't gain the Germans anything) back in the day. Today, it'd be on the level of the Kajusha rockets Hamas uses. It'd not have anything remotely close to the accuracy of a tomahawk missile. The V2 was lucky to hit a Megacity like London. A tomahawk is supposed to hit a single car, fired over the same distance. Of course, this also makes the Tomahawk a tad more expensive, since it's got to use more advanced parts than fire engine pumps.

Finally, on NASA and it's expensive probes ... sure, building thousands of MArs rovers would cut down dramatically on single-unit prices. But since all thousands of rovers would have to be bought by someone, would the money spent really be less than on one single, expensive rover?
ludomastro
QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Mar 4 2008, 05:31 PM) *
Sooo. Anyone want to wager how long it will be before the Raptors and Reapers are upgraded to full-sized multi-role fighters?


I give it 15 years.
hobgoblin
or maybe 5, depending on how the war on terror goes...
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