Stats for Parkour/Free Running/Yamakasi now that Arsenal is out, if it was/is a martial art. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[WearzManySkins]

A bit of a thread necro
Here is a topic from past discussions
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour

Posted by Shockwave_IIc
Ok, I've started to think that "le Parkour" is quite cool. and had a little look into it.
The art of movement is what David Parkour calls it and that martial art assoicated with it (which he invented 10 years ago aged 15). Ok i don't read french so this might not be accurate at all but here's my thoughts none the less.

Ok so it's based on moving consently (from what i got on the vids) so static manouvers are out (bye bye focus strength and will) but the likes of Evasion and whirling fit so they would be in. So.....

Advantages:
By being in a constant state of motion Skilled users (skill 4+) can make themselves a harder target, easyier then most others people. Thus when performing a Atheltics Complex action to increase combat pool for dodging (pg 97 CC) characters with this skill receive a -1Tn for that test.

Note i was going to go with -1Tn for all athletics tests, but then i realised that that was a 4 point merit

Disadvantages
Because it relies on movement. Characters using this skill suffer a -1 die in tightly enclosed spaces or any area where full movement is restricted.

Maneuvers
Disorient, Evasion, Herding, Kick Attack, Kip up, Multi-Strike,Sweep, Whirling, Zoning

So what do you thing? Would you allow it in your games??

Yamakasi Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamakasi

Free Running Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_running

Parkour Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour

Threads discussion of Parkour/Free Running

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour

OK do the above stats seem over the top or do they need some feats from Arsenal?

WMS

[Moon-Hawk]

Wait. SR4 tag? -1TN? No. I'd rather not turn this into a debate about fixed vs. variable TN systems, but don't make a custom martial art that violates the core mechanic.

[WearzManySkins]

Yes SR4 tag is there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

Ok then lets do it with out breaking the core mechanic then.

I posted to see/have discussion.

WMS

[Moon-Hawk]

Okay, well, obviously no TN mods. An bonus to gymnastics would be cool. I wouldn't add a bonus to dodge, though, this strikes me as something where they should definitely be using the gymnastics dodge to reap the benefits. Given that limitation, I could definitely see this adding more than just a single die to gymnastics, though.

[WearzManySkins]

Okay, well, obviously no TN mods. An bonus to gymnastics would be cool. I wouldn't add a bonus to dodge, though, this strikes me as something where they should definitely be using the gymnastics dodge to reap the benefits. Given that limitation, I could definitely see this adding more than just a single die to gymnastics, though.

I agree a bonus to Gymnastics Tests rolls lets start at a +2 die.
Bonus to Running tests lets start at +1 die
Bonus to Climbing tests lets start at +1 die

WMS

[Critias]

I'm sorry, but I still just don't see this as a martial art. There's no martial to it. It's got lots of art, is fun to watch, and I'm sure it's a great workout and can be a lifestyle choice/mindset/spiritual activity... but there's just nothing innately martial about it. It wasn't conceived as a martial art, it hasn't grown into a martial art, it's not recognized or taught as a martial art.

Why not just call your guy with appropriately high Gymnastics/Running/Whatever a Parkour guy, and be done with it?

[Method]

I agree with Critias in that this is definitely not a martial art.

But having said that, it seems reasonable to bogart the MA rules in Arsenal for this purpose, because the mechanics accurately represent what you are trying to do and are already balanced (in theory) through the cost of a positive quality. However, I would rule that you cannot take any Maneuvers that give you offensive bonuses. It simply isn't a martial art.

[WearzManySkins]

I'm sorry, but I still just don't see this as a martial art. There's no martial to it. It's got lots of art, is fun to watch, and I'm sure it's a great workout and can be a lifestyle choice/mindset/spiritual activity... but there's just nothing innately martial about it. It wasn't conceived as a martial art, it hasn't grown into a martial art, it's not recognized or taught as a martial art.

Why not just call your guy with appropriately high Gymnastics/Running/Whatever a Parkour guy, and be done with it?

That is why I put the title end about if it was/is a martial art. Thank your for your input anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) It is a Magic/Fantasy/Sci Fi RPG after all, but each to their own fantasy(ies)

Advantages
+2 Gymnastics
+1 Running
+1 Climbing

Maneuvers
Disorient
Evasion
Herding

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

I agree with Critias in that this is definitely not a martial art.

But having said that, it seems reasonable to bogart the MA rules in Arsenal for this purpose, because the mechanics accurately represent what you are trying to do and are already balanced (in theory) through the cost of a positive quality. However, I would rule that you cannot take any Maneuvers that give you offensive bonuses. It simply isn't a martial art.

Agreed any offensive maneuvers can easily come from another Arsenal Martial Art.

[Critias]

Got'cha. And I know you left the title like that for a reason (I was just weighing in with my opinion on it, to answer the question).

I haven't looked through Arsenal as much as I should, so I can't really comment on the actual numbers that've been posted. That being the case, I felt I'd tackle the part of the conversation I did think I could answer (whether or not it's a martial art, in the strictest sense of the term).

[WearzManySkins]

Advantage
Gymnastics +1 die on tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)

WMS

[Feshy]

How about ignoring the -2 running multiplier? That might be in line with a "martial" art that focuses on constant motion.

[Daier Mune]

mayhaps students of a 'martial parkour' can subsitute thier gymnastics skill for thier dodge skill on standard defensive rolls without having to declare a full gymnastics dodge? (does that work? i always forget how dodge/full dodge/gymnastics dodge works)

[Moon-Hawk]

mayhaps students of a 'martial parkour' can subsitute thier gymnastics skill for thier dodge skill on standard defensive rolls without having to declare a full gymnastics dodge? (does that work? i always forget how dodge/full dodge/gymnastics dodge works)

Interesting. That may be a bit cheap, though, in terms of BP to give you two full skills for the price of one.

[Whipstitch]

That wouldn't really work out too well. You'd need to waive the close combat skill requirements in order to take the Martial Artist quality in the first place for it to really amount to anything, since it'd be kinda goofy to buy Unarmed/whatever 1 and then pay 5 points for a quality just for the right to use your gymnastics pool instead. You'd may as well just take Unarmed (Block) and one of the defensive dice pool bonuses instead of taking a hit to your Positive quality cap, although the synergy with various types of 'ware would be rather nice. And if you went ahead and made it so gymnastics or running were enough to qualify as a martial artist, I'd take it every time in that case just to be a min-maxy bastard. I'd relentlessly crank out guys cross trained in Martial Parkour, Krav Maga and FireFight and never even consider swinging my dainty li'l fists at anyone ever again... Well, at least until the GM said no, anyway.


Besides... I think the style you're really looking for here is Gymkata.

[WearzManySkins]

How about ignoring the -2 running multiplier? That might be in line with a "martial" art that focuses on constant motion.

Agreed, that was merely the first/only posting of Parkour stated out rather than talked about.

Parkour/Free Running/Yamakasi

Advantages
Gymnastics +1 die on Gymnastic tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)
Running +1 die on Running tests
Climbing +1 die on Climbing tests

Maneuvers are not directly tied to a specific martial art. Yes some martial arts provide benefits to specific maneuvers.

WMS

[Fortune]

If you're going that way, I'd give the +2 to Running instead of Gymnastics, being that the whole art is kind of based on running.

[Daier Mune]

yeah, it is sort of a strech of the imagination to see Parkour as a combat style, however, I think its probably worth a shadowrunner's while to train in urban obsticle negotiation regardless.

[WearzManySkins]

If you're going that way, I'd give the +2 to Running instead of Gymnastics, being that the whole art is kind of based on running.

Well in Arsenal Martial Arts nothing is straight +2.

Changes:

Advantages
Gymnastics +1 die on Gymnastic tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)
Running +1 die on Running tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)
Climbing +1 die on Climbing tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)

There is one advantage in Arsenal that can gain a +3 to dice, do not know if it is applicable here. ie instead of cumulative +2 dice it could be cumulative +3 dice.

Since the max a character can have in this is Martial Art 20, the max number of advantages the character can gain is 4, so now the player can decide which version he/she is attempting to create ie Parkour? Free Running or Yamakasi. or other combinations of all three.

WMS

[Fortune]

Well in Arsenal Martial Arts nothing is straight +2.

I'm well aware of that! In all seriousness, even though I was kind of rushed when I posted, I thought (and still do think) it is pretty damn obvious that I was referring to the cumulative +1s (which could result in a possible +2).

[WearzManySkins]

I'm well aware of that! In all seriousness, even though I was kind of rushed when I posted, I thought (and still do think) it is pretty damn obvious that I was referring to the cumulative +1s (which could result in a possible +2).

Yes you are correct, but not all here possess your rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

My post was/is for those of lesser mental skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *Raises Hand to indicate I am one of the lesser mental skilled ones*

Not everyone that might read the posts here, and know exactly what you meant, I was merely spelling everything out.

WMS

[Fortune]

... but not all here possess your rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind.

Well, I guess that's true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Riley37]

I don't have Fortune's rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind. I have my OWN rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind.

If someone has trained in Parkour, and not in any (other) martial art, and they get into a fight, to what extent would they use any Parkour techniques in that fight? I tend to think: not any. I can imagine someone cross-training, and then doing slick things like using parkour to set up a flying kick... but parkour by itself, not useful for hitting people.

[WearzManySkins]

No Arsenal Martial Art by itself is much good in combat. They have to be teamed/paired up with another skill like Unarmed Combat, Firearms skill, Blade Combat skill.

A martial art positive quality of 5 to 20 gives no character any of the above skills. Many of the Advantages/manuevers do enhance the above skills.

Firefight Martial Art does very little without a Firearms skill.

Full Offense with out any Unarmed or Blade Combat skill is again not of much use.

There is a mistaken perception that the Arsenal Martial Arts are a skill, they are not, read the chapter carefully. They are a positive quality nothing more than that, that aides other close combat skills.

If you take a Martial Art Positive Quality without any Close Combat skills, you are creating a truly Gimped character,,defaulting to everything is a major drawback.

@Riley37

I have my OWN rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind.

Really is that what you say?........ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Fortune]

Let me rephrase the question for Riley37 then. In what way do you envision Parkour assisting in combat? What do you picture Parkour bringing to the party, as compared to the other (and truer to form) Martial Arts Qualities like, for example Krav Maga or Karate? Why should it be counted among the Martial Arts Qualities, as opposed to just a lifestyle choice (ie. fluff) of a person with good Athletics skills?