A bit of a thread necro
Here is a topic from past discussions
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour



Yamakasi Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamakasi

Free Running Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_running

Parkour Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour

Threads discussion of Parkour/Free Running

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...&hl=Parkour

OK do the above stats seem over the top or do they need some feats from Arsenal?

WMS

Wait. SR4 tag? -1TN? No. I'd rather not turn this into a debate about fixed vs. variable TN systems, but don't make a custom martial art that violates the core mechanic.

Yes SR4 tag is there.

Ok then lets do it with out breaking the core mechanic then.

I posted to see/have discussion.

WMS

Okay, well, obviously no TN mods. An bonus to gymnastics would be cool. I wouldn't add a bonus to dodge, though, this strikes me as something where they should definitely be using the gymnastics dodge to reap the benefits. Given that limitation, I could definitely see this adding more than just a single die to gymnastics, though.

I agree a bonus to Gymnastics Tests rolls lets start at a +2 die.
Bonus to Running tests lets start at +1 die
Bonus to Climbing tests lets start at +1 die

WMS

I'm sorry, but I still just don't see this as a martial art. There's no martial to it. It's got lots of art, is fun to watch, and I'm sure it's a great workout and can be a lifestyle choice/mindset/spiritual activity... but there's just nothing innately martial about it. It wasn't conceived as a martial art, it hasn't grown into a martial art, it's not recognized or taught as a martial art.

Why not just call your guy with appropriately high Gymnastics/Running/Whatever a Parkour guy, and be done with it?

I agree with Critias in that this is definitely not a martial art.

But having said that, it seems reasonable to bogart the MA rules in Arsenal for this purpose, because the mechanics accurately represent what you are trying to do and are already balanced (in theory) through the cost of a positive quality. However, I would rule that you cannot take any Maneuvers that give you offensive bonuses. It simply isn't a martial art.

That is why I put the title end about if it was/is a martial art. Thank your for your input anyway. It is a Magic/Fantasy/Sci Fi RPG after all, but each to their own fantasy(ies)

Advantages
+2 Gymnastics
+1 Running
+1 Climbing

Maneuvers
Disorient
Evasion
Herding

WMS

Agreed any offensive maneuvers can easily come from another Arsenal Martial Art.

Got'cha. And I know you left the title like that for a reason (I was just weighing in with my opinion on it, to answer the question).

I haven't looked through Arsenal as much as I should, so I can't really comment on the actual numbers that've been posted. That being the case, I felt I'd tackle the part of the conversation I did think I could answer (whether or not it's a martial art, in the strictest sense of the term).

Advantage
Gymnastics +1 die on tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)

WMS

How about ignoring the -2 running multiplier? That might be in line with a "martial" art that focuses on constant motion.

mayhaps students of a 'martial parkour' can subsitute thier gymnastics skill for thier dodge skill on standard defensive rolls without having to declare a full gymnastics dodge? (does that work? i always forget how dodge/full dodge/gymnastics dodge works)

Interesting. That may be a bit cheap, though, in terms of BP to give you two full skills for the price of one.

That wouldn't really work out too well. You'd need to waive the close combat skill requirements in order to take the Martial Artist quality in the first place for it to really amount to anything, since it'd be kinda goofy to buy Unarmed/whatever 1 and then pay 5 points for a quality just for the right to use your gymnastics pool instead. You'd may as well just take Unarmed (Block) and one of the defensive dice pool bonuses instead of taking a hit to your Positive quality cap, although the synergy with various types of 'ware would be rather nice. And if you went ahead and made it so gymnastics or running were enough to qualify as a martial artist, I'd take it every time in that case just to be a min-maxy bastard. I'd relentlessly crank out guys cross trained in Martial Parkour, Krav Maga and FireFight and never even consider swinging my dainty li'l fists at anyone ever again... Well, at least until the GM said no, anyway.


Besides... I think the style you're really looking for here is Gymkata.

Agreed, that was merely the first/only posting of Parkour stated out rather than talked about.

Parkour/Free Running/Yamakasi

Advantages
Gymnastics +1 die on Gymnastic tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)
Running +1 die on Running tests
Climbing +1 die on Climbing tests

Maneuvers are not directly tied to a specific martial art. Yes some martial arts provide benefits to specific maneuvers.

WMS

If you're going that way, I'd give the +2 to Running instead of Gymnastics, being that the whole art is kind of based on running.

yeah, it is sort of a strech of the imagination to see Parkour as a combat style, however, I think its probably worth a shadowrunner's while to train in urban obsticle negotiation regardless.

Well in Arsenal Martial Arts nothing is straight +2.

Changes:

Advantages
Gymnastics +1 die on Gymnastic tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)
Running +1 die on Running tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)
Climbing +1 die on Climbing tests (may be taken twice for a cumulative +2 dice)

There is one advantage in Arsenal that can gain a +3 to dice, do not know if it is applicable here. ie instead of cumulative +2 dice it could be cumulative +3 dice.

Since the max a character can have in this is Martial Art 20, the max number of advantages the character can gain is 4, so now the player can decide which version he/she is attempting to create ie Parkour? Free Running or Yamakasi. or other combinations of all three.

WMS

I'm well aware of that! In all seriousness, even though I was kind of rushed when I posted, I thought (and still do think) it is pretty damn obvious that I was referring to the cumulative +1s (which could result in a possible +2).

Yes you are correct, but not all here possess your rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind.

My post was/is for those of lesser mental skills. *Raises Hand to indicate I am one of the lesser mental skilled ones*

Not everyone that might read the posts here, and know exactly what you meant, I was merely spelling everything out.

WMS

Well, I guess that's true.

I don't have Fortune's rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind. I have my OWN rapier wit, keen insight, and giant mind.

If someone has trained in Parkour, and not in any (other) martial art, and they get into a fight, to what extent would they use any Parkour techniques in that fight? I tend to think: not any. I can imagine someone cross-training, and then doing slick things like using parkour to set up a flying kick... but parkour by itself, not useful for hitting people.

No Arsenal Martial Art by itself is much good in combat. They have to be teamed/paired up with another skill like Unarmed Combat, Firearms skill, Blade Combat skill.

A martial art positive quality of 5 to 20 gives no character any of the above skills. Many of the Advantages/manuevers do enhance the above skills.

Firefight Martial Art does very little without a Firearms skill.

Full Offense with out any Unarmed or Blade Combat skill is again not of much use.

There is a mistaken perception that the Arsenal Martial Arts are a skill, they are not, read the chapter carefully. They are a positive quality nothing more than that, that aides other close combat skills.

If you take a Martial Art Positive Quality without any Close Combat skills, you are creating a truly Gimped character,,defaulting to everything is a major drawback.

@Riley37

Really is that what you say?........

WMS

Let me rephrase the question for Riley37 then. In what way do you envision Parkour assisting in combat? What do you picture Parkour bringing to the party, as compared to the other (and truer to form) Martial Arts Qualities like, for example Krav Maga or Karate? Why should it be counted among the Martial Arts Qualities, as opposed to just a lifestyle choice (ie. fluff) of a person with good Athletics skills?

Ok

Combat is not always about dishing or receiving damage, as has been posted here many times Run Fu is/can be of importance in the correct situation.

If I can Jump to a location out of view of those firing at my character, or climb into a location where I gain an advantage....

Again depends upon the maneuver chosen along with the Martial Art. Which a GM should and does have a say is what is or is not allowed in his/her game for a maneuver of a Martial Art Positive Quality.

Focus Will has no direct effect in combat but it does increase ones will save.

+2 dice on gymnastics tests would enable gymnastics dodge to be more effecting in combat.

But as Method has stated I am Bogarting the Martial Art rules to achieve a desired goal. Again I have said that taking Parkour as a Positive Martial Art Quality that no offensive manuevers should be allowed but again that is up to each GM.

If you are going to keep prattling on about it not being a Martial Art, and please walk away. If you like start a post with a poll asking what others think of it being called a Martial Art.

I posted this thread to flesh out Parkour using the Arsenal Martial Arts positive quality. I did not post here it was a martial art.

WMS

First of all, if you're going to make custom house rules just for fun, the RAW can't exactly stop you. It should be more important to do something that adds flavor (and doesn't break the game) than to play a semantics game and wonder what the undefined term "martial art" was intended to mean in the RAW.

Second of all, not all of the martial arts in Arsenal are actually martial arts. I direct you to Kiai. Kiai is not a martial art. It is the Japanese name for the yell that a martial artist does when attacking. SR4 took that and said, "hey, how about we call this a martial art for some reason?" And they did. And while Firefight is technically a martial art, it's also totally fictional. So it's clear that the RAW seems to think it's ok to make martial arts out of things that aren't really fighting styles, and to invent martial arts from whole cloth.


To me, the real question here is game balance. Do we need parkour? With sythacardium, enhanced articulation, and reflex recorder, sammies can get +5 to gymnastics. Throw on some kid stealth legs and they can run, jump, and gymnastic dodge like there's no tomorrow. Adepts with combat sense can of course avail themselves of the ahtletics boosting cyber (though they'd prolly never get kid stealth) and combine that with combat sense for utterly insane full defense'ing. Parkour is a cool idea, but here's how I'm seeing it in game balance terms: sammies and adepts do not need it, they can cheaply and easily get high gymnastics pools. The only people who would bother with parkour would be athletics twinks who are already going nuts on the athletics, and you're just handing them an exta bonus on top of already crazy dice pools. It's almost as bad an idea of adding a 'dodge fu' or a 'pistol fu.' Of course, you could restrict it to not work with gymnastics dodge, but then it would be utterly worthless, and why bother?

(And yeah, I know that some martial arts give bonuses to defense, but they're generally pretty limited on that front. And they apply to dodge and parry, which can only be boosted by reflex recorders and improved ability, i.e. much less than you can pile on with gymnastics.)

Here's how I think parkour would be best represented: as a specialization to the gymnastics skill, and also to the running skill. +2 dice whenever the person is doing parkour. There you go. I know there's definitely an urge to make something as cool as parkour be 'ub3r' in game terms, but with SR4's streamlined system and rather delicate game balance I think it's best to try and color within the lines when possible. Parkour is not some kind of radical super art, it's essentially just a cominbation of gymnastics and running specialized towards urban environments. It's a lot more similar to a specialization than to a martial art, is what I'm saying. It's essentially just Running (Urban).

Kiai?



Firefight?

Basically Gun Fu.
Actually the full Martial Art is called Kiai (Tai Chi Ch’uan),

As one who has studied Tai Chi Ch'uan,,,,I am to say the least dismayed.
WMS

You rang?



Like you said, there's some arts that give bonuses to defense. And honestly, Parkour should be one of them. It's become more than just a specialization of Running and Jumping. Just like skateboarding has become more than scooting down a sidewalk, Free Running has become a fast-moving sport. And many martial arts have become sports nowadays.

A bonus to dodging is nothing to sneeze at. I'd say that adding Parkour as a simple specialization of Gymnastics is seriously undercutting the art. We can just specialize in Dodging, instead. By adding bonus dice on top of that, we can get some serious Run-fu performance. Which is very cool, and a definite bonus for any game.

There are numerous tactical shooting systems that teach "contact-distance" shooting techniques. The idea is far from fictional.

The Japanese and Chinese have very different ideas about chi/ki despite their roots in a similar concept. Interesting to note: if you reverse the characters for kiai you get aiki as in aikido. Again similar applications of the same idea.

What kept you?

Nonono. The thing in parentheses is a different martial art which uses the same rules. Just like how Judo and Jujitsu are alternate martial arts that use the same rules as Aikido. So kiai is some made up bullcrap. Tai Chi uses the same rules as kiai, I guess because it teaches you to focus your will. They might have made up a totally lame martial art, but they're not so dumb as to confuse their made up art with a real one.

Hmm that I will disagree, most Tai Chi Ch’uan teachers I have studied under were far from Intimidating. Until you saw the "moves" they could perform and in the manner which they were performed. To me it was more like total amazement at a 70+ old man with that flexibility etc.

But I will try not to digress into the various attempts at recreating Martial Arts for SR4.

WMS

Larme: you need to do more research. The developers did not make up Kiai or the idea of Firefight. Both are real world fighting styles (although kiai is a little dubious IMHO).

Both are based on real arts, but "cool-ified" to haul them more in line with The Sixth World. There are close combat/touch distance firearms instructors out there, but "Firefight" is obviously meant to be gun-fu from Equilibrium and little more.

While the fluff writing for Firefight reads like a tip of the hat to Equilibrium, the stats are pretty simple: you can get martial arts maneuvers (just like any other martial art), shoot almost as well in melee as you can out of it, and dodge melee strikes a little better. Interestingly, you can only get 3 advantages from this art, rather than the usual 4. I'd say that's a fair summary of most contact-distance shooting techniques, although I might have given the option to get a bonus on melee blocks for a fourth advantage.

If they were really working hard to make it Equilibrium, we would have seen things like bonuses to DV when pistol-whipping, "melee attacks" that use the damage/AP of the firearm you're holding, etc.

Very nice. I would like you to show me even one example of where I stated that Parkour is not a Martial Art, let alone 'prattled on' about it.

I asked three legitimate questions that were specifically designed to draw out just how you envisioned the skill affecting combat, so that we might be of more assistance. If you are asking us to help you 'stat out' something, knowing just how you picture it working is a good thing, at least in my opinion.

As for the general topic of my posts in relation to the thread at hand ... You may very well have started this thread, but you in no way own it or control its content. If a post is on topic (as mine was), then it is a perfectly valid post. If it isn't on topic (as happens quite a bit), and is seen as being a big disruption to the thread, then the Moderators will do their job, with no need for your intervention.

Have a nice day.

The resourceful and insightful Fortune wrote:
"Let me rephrase the question for Riley37 then. In what way do you envision Parkour assisting in combat?"

Fortune, are you mistaking my posts for someone else's? I previously wrote:
"If someone has trained in Parkour, and not in any (other) martial art, and they get into a fight, to what extent would they use any Parkour techniques in that fight? I tend to think: not any."

I can imagine someone using parkour techniques while closing to melee range, or while disengaging, but not at the actual moment of throwing a punch or kick; nor while evading an attack.

Kiai is not a fighting style in and of itself. Firefight is not real. I don't care whether they made them up, or borowed them from real life or fiction. My point was, for something to be a martial art, it doesn't necessarily have to be an actual modern fighting style, it can be something sort of dubious or fictional. What is added to the discussion by telling me to "do more research?"

Also, to reiterate, there is no martial art in the book called Kiai (Tai Chi Chuan). The parentheses show different martial arts that use the same rules. The proof is in the other martial arts. It is 100% clear that there is no martial art called Muay Thai (Savate, Kickboxing). Those are three different fighting styles that all use the same rules. There is also no art called Aikido (Judo, Jujitsu). The SR4 devs are not that stupid. Kiai is one martial art, based on a form of shouting which is connected to martial arts. And Tai Chi is a different martial art.

Such argument/statement does not appear to be part of the Martial Art Positive Quality in Arsenal, singular example is Kiai (Tai Chi Ch’uan). The practitioner gains a bonus to will saves. How does a bonus to will saves help you throw a kick/punch etc?

The way it is set up you have Advantages for each, then you have Maneuvers which are not directly linked to any Martial Art or its advantages. What maneuvers are best for each martial art is up to each player and their GM.

I see Parkour users not have any or very little enhancing Wares ie Syncardium etc. Why from all of I have read and seen they could in today have added enchantments that would aide them but they do not. But that is my view of it. Yes a datajack or the like, but no muscle augmentation. I see them more a Adepts rather than Street Sams.

WMS

You can't prevent people from abusing a twinky house rule just by envisioning. If you make a new martial art, it doesn't make sense to tell people they can't learn it unless they're unenhanced. You can envision all you like, but really parkour as a martial art would just be a giveaway to gymnastics twinks. And it would probably be worse if parkour practitioners were adepts instead of streetsams, since adepts can still use athletics twinking bioware.

Again that is up to each player and GM, merely expressing my POV on it.

As for Twinks etc, the entire Martial Art Positive Quality is rife with possible abuses.*shrugs* if a GM lets it get abused so be it. Merely because it can be abused does not mean it should not be there.

WMS

Nope. As I said, I was rephrasing.

In any discussion the veracity of people's statements is relevant. Your statements were (and apparently still are) entirely incorrect.

Kiai is practiced as an entirely separate art in Japan, with a very long history and is a great deal more in depth than learning how to yell real loud. And Firefight is not a "totally fictional" fighting style that the developers created "from whole cloth". The name is fictional but there are very real examples of such a style in RL.

Beyond that, debating what does and does not fit the SR conceptualization of a "martial art" seems to be quite relevant, since people seem to be balking at the idea of WMS using the MA game mechanic for (*gasp*) something that isn't a martial art.

I have been thinking on this, but in all the Martial Arts Positive Qualities, none have any substitution of skills or abilities. So to me I would say no the this option.

Now there are examples of a Martial Art making some actions easier ie some can become Free Actions.

One possibility to throw out, is that a Parkour Martial Art makes Gymnastics Dodge a Simple Action but I am still undecided.

WMS

I have no issue with some Balking, but I would rather not have the discussion/debate occur in this thread.

As for what the Developers came up with for the Advantages for the various Martial Arts Positive Qualities, some I have personal disagreement with, but again I also understand that attempting to make this system, accuracy was not going to be a high priority. So that means the Martial Arts Positive Qualities I will take as RAW.

But as a GM I have to right to say no to some things or combinations of things that are RAW but can cause many issues.

WMS