Gymnastics Dodge Options

[Prime Mover]

Seen this time and again in character critiques. It's recommended that you drop dodge and replace it with Gymnastics (dodge). Only place I see this useful is in Full Defense is there another reference somewere?


Char narrows his eyes and asks again "now what is this class you signed us up for"? Cody smirks and hands Char a Condom before replying "Gymnasty"!

[It trolls!]

Well, short: In ranged combat you only profit from dodge skill anyway if you declare full defense, so dodge is meaningless if you have enough dice in Gymnastics. In melee combat you can parry instead of dodge, using your melee combat skill instead of dodge - this goes for full defense too.
So basically you can skip dodge for 2 skills that come with a broader utility, unless you're really strapped for points.

[WearzManySkins]

Ok there are some previous threads relating to this

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...61&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...55&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...89&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...62&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p=0&#entry0
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...88&hl=Dodge

Not to put you off, but in those threads are some very good discussions on this, some worded better than I can/could.

To me depends on the concept/idea behind the character being created.

WMS

[Malicant]

That has been explained to me recently, so I try to share my newfound knowledge (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Dodge is only used in melee or in full defense. If you have a melee skill, you can defend using that in melee and in full defense you can use gymnastics.

That's it in a nutshell, although I'm sure someone can give you a longer, more detailed expanation why Dodge is not as useful as it appeares to be.

[Spike]

I have yet to have a player take Gymnastics instead of Dodge so as a GM I haven't had to deal with this.

I do prefer not to alter the rules of the game, or at least as little as convienently possible, so I'd allow a player to do 'Gymnastic's dodges'.

However.


I don't feel like I have to let them take them 'all the time', which is where I would warn my players against attempting to be 'Gymnastic monkeys'. One recent incident in a game I was a player in comes to mind: A moving firefight between vehicles (two bulldogs and some motorcycles. One bulldog had the NPC's with a minigun vs the other bulldog (PC's) and bikes.

Nobody involved would be 'gymnastically dodging' anything in that fight, but regular dodging would be perfectly fine. Well, maybe not 'Perfectly', but certainly more acceptable. Other concerns include areas or situations where mobility is limited.

As a player, even when trying to be as cheesetastically munchikined out as possible I wouldn't try this particular trick. For one, I generally don't take a high melee skill unless I'm trying to be a melee type (very rare) so Dodge is the better skill for a shooter.

If my choice is :High gun skill + high Dodge vs. High Gun Skill + high Gymnastics + High Melee, generally I'll take option one, that leaves me more points for other stuff.

[Abbandon]

The only time you need to take dodge instead of gymnastics is when your fat or when you plan on being a rigger. Otherwise gymasntics will do everything dodge does, although yeah it should fit the character..

Infirm characters get penalized on gymnastics as its a physical skill.
And theres no way I would let someone use gymnastics to make their drone evade bullets while they are jumping it.

[samuelbeckett]

The only difference is in the specialization dice you can add to defense rolls.

For starters, there is technically no 'Dodge' specialization of Gymnastics, so you are looking at GM approval to do that, whereas Dodge has both 'Ranged Combat' and 'Melee Combat' specializations.

So for melee defense, unless you want to waste 2 of your melee attack DP, specializing 'Block' or 'Parry' for any of the melee combat skills is probably not the best option. So someone with either Dodge at a rating equal to their melee combat skill and the 'Melee Combat' specialization or (with an understanding GM) Gymnastics at a rating equal to their melee combat skill and the 'Dodge' specialization will have 2 more dice for a normal melee dodge and 4 more dice for a Full Defense melee dodge.

However, given the BP cost to get your Dodge or Gymnastics up that high, and given the increased utility of blocking or parrying in melee combat (to trigger manuevers like Riposte), going the Dodge/Gymnastics route for melee defense is likely to be sub-optimal.

For ranged defense, there are no skill impacts unless you go Full Defense, and then you are looking at either Dodge or Gymnastics. Again Dodge has a ready made specialization, whereas Gymnastics is more dubious.

So if you want the optimal defenses in both melee and ranged combat, and you have an accomodating GM, then you really only need a high melee combat skill and a high Gymnastics skill.

The only place where Dodge would be prefered is if you don't plan on getting any melee combat skills at all, as Dodge can be used in both melee and ranged, whereas Gymnastics can only be used in ranged.

[Fuchs]

I think the car example is a good exmaple for a scene where dodge can be used, but not gymnastics. I would call it the "backflip" test: If there's no way to do a backflip, you can't use gymnastics to dodge.

[mike_the_fish]

There are plenty of characters who either A) don't normally take any melee fighting skills (Hackers, Mages, etc) and B) need the Full Defense option from time to time (Hackers, Mages, etc), so really I don't see how substituting 2 skills for 1, and then loosing Full Defense to boot is really that fantastic a deal - at least for a good chunk of the characters out there.

[Prime Mover]

Didn'nt think this out well enough before I posted..thanks for quick replies.

[kigmatzomat]

Gymnastics has one big advantage: it's not a combat skill. As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.

[Sponge]

Gymnastics has one big advantage: it's not a combat skill. As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.

Yes, Gymnastics Tests are boosted by those. However, I don't think a Gymnastics Dodge qualifies as an Gymnastics (Athletics) Test for the purposes of Synthacardium - the Gymnastics skill rating is being used as a dicepool modifier on your Defense test (although Enhanced Articulation would be fine, as it's a test "involving a physical skill linked to a physical attribute" - even if that linked physical attribute isn't being used in the test.) It's not entirely clear.

A couple of points for Dodge in melee over Parry/Block:

* You need to actually be wielding the right class of weapon to Parry. If you've got an assault rifle in your hands, it's not an option (unless you have Exotic Melee Weapon: Assault Rifle....)
* You might not want to Block a Contact-vector chemical/biological weapon with Unarmed Combat, or that enemy spellcaster trying to hit you with a Touch spell.

DS

[samuelbeckett]

Gymnastics has one big advantage: it's not a combat skill. As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.

Doh! Forgot about that - fair enough, even without the potentially dubious use of the 'Dodge' speciality, looks like provided you have the room to move Gymnastics is teh winner.

[FrankTrollman]

The Gymnastics (Dodge) specialization doesn't exist. But yes, the Synthacardium by itself can be larger than the (Ranged) specialization on the Dodge skill. At the high end, Street Samurai are better off with Gymnastics than Dodge.

-Frank

[nathanross]

I used to min-max and just take gymnastics. With Ranged Combat as it is now, Gymnastic Dodge is about as good if not better. Also it should be noted that Synthacardium does not add dice to the Gymnastics Dodge test.

Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

Enhanced articulation provides its user with a +1 dice pool modifier on any test involving Physical skills that are linked to Physical attributes. This bonus may be combined with bonuses from other sources (reflex recorder, specialization, etc.)

Synthacardium: Artificially enhanced myocardium enables the heart to perform at higher levels. The synthacardium adds its rating as a dice pool modifier on all Athletics Tests. This bonus may be combined with bonuses from other sources.

Enhanced Articulation can be said to give +1 dice since it gives that to any Dodge test involving a Physical skill. Synthacardium does not because a Gymnastic dodge test is not an Athletics test. It is a Dodge test to which you have added your Gymnastics skill as a DP modifier. The more I think about it, the more I also think that Enhanced articulation is the same, but it isnt too munchy, so Ill let it slide.

[FrankTrollman]

Gymnastic Dodge is not a "Dodge Test" it is "Defense Test" that happens to include Gymnastics. That makes it an Athletics Test.

-Frank

[Larme]

I think "gymanstics is better than dodge" is pretty much flat out wrong. Each has its use.

Dodge is a lot cheaper. Any combat character is going to have a good reaction, and dodge goes with reaction. You will not need to spend up agility as much if you go with dodge. Also, you do not need a melee skill if you go with dodge, because you can full defense dodge both melee and ranged attacks at the same time. Gymnastics only works against either melee or ranged when you full defense (SR4 p.151).

Gymnastics has a huge advantage in that it's really easy to take ware that makes it obscenely good: +3 from synthacardium and +1 from enhanced articulation is an extra possible +4 on top of what you could get with dodge. And many combat characters will have agility as their best stat, as well as melee skill, so it's not like it costs them extra.

Gymnastics is definitely the way to go if you're a sammie shooting for a really good full defense pool, since you can't top it. Dodge is the way to go if you're trying to be more generalist and save BP. For adepts, it can go either way -- it's hard for an adept to afford the money and essence that go into +gymnastics ware. And they can already get a huge defense boost from combat sense. But when going with gymnastics, they'll hit the highest max defense pool of anyone. Although there's a point when your full defense is so bloated that you're just a walking full defense pool with a character wrapped around it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[cryptoknight]

I think this has more to do with the reading of the word "either"

i.e. using the word as either x or Y but not both
or
using the word as you can use it for either of these

Dictionary.com gives both definitions that could be applied here

1. one or the other of two: You may sit at either end of the table.
2. each of two; the one and the other: There are trees on either side of the river.

Looks like a copy editor problem to me.

[Kyoto Kid]

...Fuchs brought up a very valid point, you need space perform a gymnastic move.

So in a place like a lift or on a crowded street for example, a character could only use the normal dodge skill (or default).

[GryMor]

Hmm, I think an argument could be made for Gymnastics being BETTER at dealing with constrained spaces (as opposed to outright restraints such as buckled in to a 5 point harness) than Dodge. For visual source material, take The Matrix or Ranma 1/2, you have dodging up a wall (or in the extreme, to the ceiling and staying there), limbo dodging (in both the bullet time and hands in pocket, I'm so flexible it hurts variations), jumping over a strike (or the entire person) and a myriad of other stay in the same hex, just at a different altitude but not diving for cover dodges.

[Particle_Beam]

Such things that you described ("dodging" like in The Matrix or Ranma 1/2) would rather be performed by Adepts with specific powers (by active use of such adept powers, of course), instead of any people with the Gymnastic skill, in my opinion.

[GryMor]

Such things that you described ("dodging" like in The Matrix or Ranma 1/2) would rather be performed by Adepts with specific powers (by active use of such adept powers, of course), instead of any people with the Gymnastic skill, in my opinion.

Yes, but the powers that DO that sort of thing aren't active powers, they are skill enhancements and dice pool boosters. I was bringing up these particular 'visual aids' to demonstrate that in a restricted environment (packed crowd and elevator were mentioned earlier), the Gymnastic version may be better able to deal with the restriction than Dodge, as it can take advantage of an extra degree of freedom. This was to counter the specific suggestions that Gymnastic dodge should be disallowed or penalized in those situations (disproportionately to penalties/disallowances to/of Dodge).

[Glyph]

Gymnastics is useful for certain builds, but by no means makes dodge a superfluous skill. One thing for sammies to keep in mind is that move-by-wire gives a bonus to the dodge skill, and it's a skill bonus, not just a dice pool bonus. So if you plan to eventually get move-by-wire: 3, dodge starts looking pretty sweet.

[nathanross]

Gymnastic Dodge is not a "Dodge Test" it is "Defense Test" that happens to include Gymnastics. That makes it an Athletics Test.

I hate to disagree with you on rules, and maybe this is how it is supposed to be. However, an "Athletics" test as I define it is the skill test of a skill that is within the Athletics group. Since a defense test is NOT an athletics test, Synthacardium does not apply a DP modifier to it. The dice gymnastics give to the pool is from Gymnastics skill and gymnastics skill only. It is not as stated a Gymnastics test, but as you stated, a defense test.

[Spike]

I, for one, have a hard time imagining someone gymnastically dodging in an elevator, realistically. I also imagine someone that is in a disadvantagous position (say, on their knees, lying down or even with the bad guy looming over them (if they were crouched down opening a safe or some crap).

Also: I don't see synthecardium helping much, but I'd really have to go over the arguements. Given the debate as it stands...


Though to be perfectly honest I'm completely lost when it comes to 'skill caps' and enhancement. I thought skills were 'enhancement capped' sort of like attributes are... though I can't say why. the difficulty comes in determining which items count as enhancers that hit the cap and bonus dice that don't.

But then when the entire thing comes up I keep thinking 'gymnastics dodge as it stands sounds more like something that slipped through the cracks... I don't think its meant to be measurably better (as it is with synthecardium and enhanced articulation), its supposed to be more limited (which is why it doesn't work against melee)...

Eh. I'll worry about it when I get a player that wants to skip the dodge skill in favor of gymnastics.