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Prime Mover
Seen this time and again in character critiques. It's recommended that you drop dodge and replace it with Gymnastics (dodge). Only place I see this useful is in Full Defense is there another reference somewere?


Char narrows his eyes and asks again "now what is this class you signed us up for"? Cody smirks and hands Char a Condom before replying "Gymnasty"!
It trolls!
Well, short: In ranged combat you only profit from dodge skill anyway if you declare full defense, so dodge is meaningless if you have enough dice in Gymnastics. In melee combat you can parry instead of dodge, using your melee combat skill instead of dodge - this goes for full defense too.
So basically you can skip dodge for 2 skills that come with a broader utility, unless you're really strapped for points.
WearzManySkins
Ok there are some previous threads relating to this

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...61&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...55&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...89&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...62&hl=Dodge
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p=0&#entry0
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...88&hl=Dodge

Not to put you off, but in those threads are some very good discussions on this, some worded better than I can/could.

To me depends on the concept/idea behind the character being created.

WMS
Malicant
That has been explained to me recently, so I try to share my newfound knowledge wink.gif

Dodge is only used in melee or in full defense. If you have a melee skill, you can defend using that in melee and in full defense you can use gymnastics.

That's it in a nutshell, although I'm sure someone can give you a longer, more detailed expanation why Dodge is not as useful as it appeares to be.
Spike
I have yet to have a player take Gymnastics instead of Dodge so as a GM I haven't had to deal with this.

I do prefer not to alter the rules of the game, or at least as little as convienently possible, so I'd allow a player to do 'Gymnastic's dodges'.

However.


I don't feel like I have to let them take them 'all the time', which is where I would warn my players against attempting to be 'Gymnastic monkeys'. One recent incident in a game I was a player in comes to mind: A moving firefight between vehicles (two bulldogs and some motorcycles. One bulldog had the NPC's with a minigun vs the other bulldog (PC's) and bikes.

Nobody involved would be 'gymnastically dodging' anything in that fight, but regular dodging would be perfectly fine. Well, maybe not 'Perfectly', but certainly more acceptable. Other concerns include areas or situations where mobility is limited.

As a player, even when trying to be as cheesetastically munchikined out as possible I wouldn't try this particular trick. For one, I generally don't take a high melee skill unless I'm trying to be a melee type (very rare) so Dodge is the better skill for a shooter.

If my choice is :High gun skill + high Dodge vs. High Gun Skill + high Gymnastics + High Melee, generally I'll take option one, that leaves me more points for other stuff.
Abbandon
The only time you need to take dodge instead of gymnastics is when your fat or when you plan on being a rigger. Otherwise gymasntics will do everything dodge does, although yeah it should fit the character..

Infirm characters get penalized on gymnastics as its a physical skill.
And theres no way I would let someone use gymnastics to make their drone evade bullets while they are jumping it.
samuelbeckett
The only difference is in the specialization dice you can add to defense rolls.

For starters, there is technically no 'Dodge' specialization of Gymnastics, so you are looking at GM approval to do that, whereas Dodge has both 'Ranged Combat' and 'Melee Combat' specializations.

So for melee defense, unless you want to waste 2 of your melee attack DP, specializing 'Block' or 'Parry' for any of the melee combat skills is probably not the best option. So someone with either Dodge at a rating equal to their melee combat skill and the 'Melee Combat' specialization or (with an understanding GM) Gymnastics at a rating equal to their melee combat skill and the 'Dodge' specialization will have 2 more dice for a normal melee dodge and 4 more dice for a Full Defense melee dodge.

However, given the BP cost to get your Dodge or Gymnastics up that high, and given the increased utility of blocking or parrying in melee combat (to trigger manuevers like Riposte), going the Dodge/Gymnastics route for melee defense is likely to be sub-optimal.

For ranged defense, there are no skill impacts unless you go Full Defense, and then you are looking at either Dodge or Gymnastics. Again Dodge has a ready made specialization, whereas Gymnastics is more dubious.

So if you want the optimal defenses in both melee and ranged combat, and you have an accomodating GM, then you really only need a high melee combat skill and a high Gymnastics skill.

The only place where Dodge would be prefered is if you don't plan on getting any melee combat skills at all, as Dodge can be used in both melee and ranged, whereas Gymnastics can only be used in ranged.
Fuchs
I think the car example is a good exmaple for a scene where dodge can be used, but not gymnastics. I would call it the "backflip" test: If there's no way to do a backflip, you can't use gymnastics to dodge.
mike_the_fish
There are plenty of characters who either A) don't normally take any melee fighting skills (Hackers, Mages, etc) and B) need the Full Defense option from time to time (Hackers, Mages, etc), so really I don't see how substituting 2 skills for 1, and then loosing Full Defense to boot is really that fantastic a deal - at least for a good chunk of the characters out there.
Prime Mover
Didn'nt think this out well enough before I posted..thanks for quick replies.
kigmatzomat
Gymnastics has one big advantage: it's not a combat skill. As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.
Sponge
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Mar 7 2008, 03:00 PM) *
Gymnastics has one big advantage: it's not a combat skill. As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.


Yes, Gymnastics Tests are boosted by those. However, I don't think a Gymnastics Dodge qualifies as an Gymnastics (Athletics) Test for the purposes of Synthacardium - the Gymnastics skill rating is being used as a dicepool modifier on your Defense test (although Enhanced Articulation would be fine, as it's a test "involving a physical skill linked to a physical attribute" - even if that linked physical attribute isn't being used in the test.) It's not entirely clear.

A couple of points for Dodge in melee over Parry/Block:

* You need to actually be wielding the right class of weapon to Parry. If you've got an assault rifle in your hands, it's not an option (unless you have Exotic Melee Weapon: Assault Rifle....)
* You might not want to Block a Contact-vector chemical/biological weapon with Unarmed Combat, or that enemy spellcaster trying to hit you with a Touch spell.

DS
samuelbeckett
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Mar 7 2008, 08:00 PM) *
Gymnastics has one big advantage: it's not a combat skill. As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.


Doh! Forgot about that - fair enough, even without the potentially dubious use of the 'Dodge' speciality, looks like provided you have the room to move Gymnastics is teh winner.
FrankTrollman
The Gymnastics (Dodge) specialization doesn't exist. But yes, the Synthacardium by itself can be larger than the (Ranged) specialization on the Dodge skill. At the high end, Street Samurai are better off with Gymnastics than Dodge.

-Frank
nathanross
I used to min-max and just take gymnastics. With Ranged Combat as it is now, Gymnastic Dodge is about as good if not better. Also it should be noted that Synthacardium does not add dice to the Gymnastics Dodge test.

QUOTE (SR4 @ p.151)
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

QUOTE (SR4 @ p.338-9)
Enhanced articulation provides its user with a +1 dice pool modifier on any test involving Physical skills that are linked to Physical attributes. This bonus may be combined with bonuses from other sources (reflex recorder, specialization, etc.)

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 339)
Synthacardium: Artificially enhanced myocardium enables the heart to perform at higher levels. The synthacardium adds its rating as a dice pool modifier on all Athletics Tests. This bonus may be combined with bonuses from other sources.

Enhanced Articulation can be said to give +1 dice since it gives that to any Dodge test involving a Physical skill. Synthacardium does not because a Gymnastic dodge test is not an Athletics test. It is a Dodge test to which you have added your Gymnastics skill as a DP modifier. The more I think about it, the more I also think that Enhanced articulation is the same, but it isnt too munchy, so Ill let it slide.
FrankTrollman
Gymnastic Dodge is not a "Dodge Test" it is "Defense Test" that happens to include Gymnastics. That makes it an Athletics Test.

-Frank
Larme
I think "gymanstics is better than dodge" is pretty much flat out wrong. Each has its use.

Dodge is a lot cheaper. Any combat character is going to have a good reaction, and dodge goes with reaction. You will not need to spend up agility as much if you go with dodge. Also, you do not need a melee skill if you go with dodge, because you can full defense dodge both melee and ranged attacks at the same time. Gymnastics only works against either melee or ranged when you full defense (SR4 p.151).

Gymnastics has a huge advantage in that it's really easy to take ware that makes it obscenely good: +3 from synthacardium and +1 from enhanced articulation is an extra possible +4 on top of what you could get with dodge. And many combat characters will have agility as their best stat, as well as melee skill, so it's not like it costs them extra.

Gymnastics is definitely the way to go if you're a sammie shooting for a really good full defense pool, since you can't top it. Dodge is the way to go if you're trying to be more generalist and save BP. For adepts, it can go either way -- it's hard for an adept to afford the money and essence that go into +gymnastics ware. And they can already get a huge defense boost from combat sense. But when going with gymnastics, they'll hit the highest max defense pool of anyone. Although there's a point when your full defense is so bloated that you're just a walking full defense pool with a character wrapped around it nyahnyah.gif
cryptoknight
I think this has more to do with the reading of the word "either"

i.e. using the word as either x or Y but not both
or
using the word as you can use it for either of these

Dictionary.com gives both definitions that could be applied here

QUOTE (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/either)
1. one or the other of two: You may sit at either end of the table.
2. each of two; the one and the other: There are trees on either side of the river.


Looks like a copy editor problem to me.
Kyoto Kid
...Fuchs brought up a very valid point, you need space perform a gymnastic move.

So in a place like a lift or on a crowded street for example, a character could only use the normal dodge skill (or default).


GryMor
Hmm, I think an argument could be made for Gymnastics being BETTER at dealing with constrained spaces (as opposed to outright restraints such as buckled in to a 5 point harness) than Dodge. For visual source material, take The Matrix or Ranma 1/2, you have dodging up a wall (or in the extreme, to the ceiling and staying there), limbo dodging (in both the bullet time and hands in pocket, I'm so flexible it hurts variations), jumping over a strike (or the entire person) and a myriad of other stay in the same hex, just at a different altitude but not diving for cover dodges.
Particle_Beam
Such things that you described ("dodging" like in The Matrix or Ranma 1/2) would rather be performed by Adepts with specific powers (by active use of such adept powers, of course), instead of any people with the Gymnastic skill, in my opinion.
GryMor
QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Mar 7 2008, 09:19 PM) *
Such things that you described ("dodging" like in The Matrix or Ranma 1/2) would rather be performed by Adepts with specific powers (by active use of such adept powers, of course), instead of any people with the Gymnastic skill, in my opinion.


Yes, but the powers that DO that sort of thing aren't active powers, they are skill enhancements and dice pool boosters. I was bringing up these particular 'visual aids' to demonstrate that in a restricted environment (packed crowd and elevator were mentioned earlier), the Gymnastic version may be better able to deal with the restriction than Dodge, as it can take advantage of an extra degree of freedom. This was to counter the specific suggestions that Gymnastic dodge should be disallowed or penalized in those situations (disproportionately to penalties/disallowances to/of Dodge).
Glyph
Gymnastics is useful for certain builds, but by no means makes dodge a superfluous skill. One thing for sammies to keep in mind is that move-by-wire gives a bonus to the dodge skill, and it's a skill bonus, not just a dice pool bonus. So if you plan to eventually get move-by-wire: 3, dodge starts looking pretty sweet.
nathanross
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 7 2008, 04:27 PM) *
Gymnastic Dodge is not a "Dodge Test" it is "Defense Test" that happens to include Gymnastics. That makes it an Athletics Test.

I hate to disagree with you on rules, and maybe this is how it is supposed to be. However, an "Athletics" test as I define it is the skill test of a skill that is within the Athletics group. Since a defense test is NOT an athletics test, Synthacardium does not apply a DP modifier to it. The dice gymnastics give to the pool is from Gymnastics skill and gymnastics skill only. It is not as stated a Gymnastics test, but as you stated, a defense test.
Spike
I, for one, have a hard time imagining someone gymnastically dodging in an elevator, realistically. I also imagine someone that is in a disadvantagous position (say, on their knees, lying down or even with the bad guy looming over them (if they were crouched down opening a safe or some crap).

Also: I don't see synthecardium helping much, but I'd really have to go over the arguements. Given the debate as it stands...


Though to be perfectly honest I'm completely lost when it comes to 'skill caps' and enhancement. I thought skills were 'enhancement capped' sort of like attributes are... though I can't say why. the difficulty comes in determining which items count as enhancers that hit the cap and bonus dice that don't.

But then when the entire thing comes up I keep thinking 'gymnastics dodge as it stands sounds more like something that slipped through the cracks... I don't think its meant to be measurably better (as it is with synthecardium and enhanced articulation), its supposed to be more limited (which is why it doesn't work against melee)...

Eh. I'll worry about it when I get a player that wants to skip the dodge skill in favor of gymnastics.

Edge2054
QUOTE (samuelbeckett @ Mar 7 2008, 06:15 PM) *
For starters, there is technically no 'Dodge' specialization of Gymnastics, so you are looking at GM approval to do that, whereas Dodge has both 'Ranged Combat' and 'Melee Combat' specializations.


Yup. No such thing as Gymnastics (Dodge).

For any character who already plans to invest in Unarmed Combat, Dodge (Ranged) is actually cheesier since there's no dodge specialization for Gymnastics.
Glyph
Both have their good points -

dodge:
It can be used for both ranged and melee combat (and the latter might be useful even to someone with decent melee ability, since some things are probably better off avoided than blocked). It has available specializations for either. Only move-by-wire, reflex recorders, or improved ability improve it. Move-by-wire makes dodge a no-brainer to take, but improved ability only makes sense to take if you have already maxed out Combat Sense (although improved ability in dodge will make a full dodge in melee very effective).

gymnastics:
Good for ranged combat only (it can be used for melee full defense, but is far less effective). No specialization, unless your GM is generous and lets you use the tumbling specialization. Much easier to improve by technical means (enhanced articulation, synthcardium, and reflex recorders - some GMs seem to disallow synthcardium to be used for gymnastics dodge, though), or by magical means (it is half as expensive to get improved ability for it). Even in cases where dodge would be marginally better, characters will often take the Athletics group, which includes gymnastics. So they have to ask themselves if gymnastics is good enough, and if it is worth spending points on dodge when they already have a skill that can be used for defense.
Wounded Ronin
There is only one possible response to this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTkUcXGF_Q
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Mar 7 2008, 11:46 PM) *
There is only one possible response to this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTkUcXGF_Q

And I thought the Run Run Shaw Hong Kong Kung Fu chop socky movies were cheesy. rollin.gif

WMS
Cain
Now, here's the question. For all of you who say the "dodge" specialization of gymnastics doesn't exist, who can point to a canon rule that says the listed specializations are all-inclusive? For example, if someone wanted to have a "disarming" specialization of Demolitions, or a Military specialization in leadership, who'd say no?

It may be cheesy, but it's no more illegal than the other two.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 7 2008, 09:43 PM) *
...Fuchs brought up a very valid point, you need space perform a gymnastic move.

So in a place like a lift or on a crowded street for example, a character could only use the normal dodge skill (or default).


This is to my mind totally bizarre. Gymnastics isn't just about flipping out like a ninja, it includes many floor/mat moves and disciplines.

Why the hell couldn't you tumble into cover rather than dodge into cover? Any time you can physically move to 'dodge' you can presumably physically move to 'gymnastics' out of it - it doesn't have to imply you are doing a god damn back flip, maybe its just a tumble. I'm not even sure how you could 'dodge' in an elevator (what are you going to do? lie down Neo style? Why doesn't gymnastics cover that anyway?), so slapping down 'gymnastics' but allowing 'dodge' in confined spaces is just.. wacky, unreasonable and completely unjustifiable.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Mar 7 2008, 06:47 PM) *
Only place I see this useful is in Full Defense is there another reference somewere?

Indeed there is.

Evading Supressive Fire is Edge + Dodge.

Plan on skipping Dodge? Better hope nobody tries to hold you down.

QUOTE (Cain @ Mar 8 2008, 09:33 AM) *
For example, if someone wanted to have a "disarming" specialization of Demolitions, or a Military specialization in leadership, who'd say no?

Me. Especially because Demolitions alread has Defusing.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 8 2008, 08:31 AM) *
Indeed there is.

Evading Supressive Fire is Edge + Dodge.

Plan on skipping Dodge? Better hope nobody tries to hold you down.


I wish to point out that it is Reaction + Edge, not Edge + Dodge. It specifies that you add Dodge if on full defense in the Suppressive Fire rules on page 144, but if you are taking a gymnastic dodge full defense action it specifies that you add your Gymnastics against the attack on page 151.

So while you could attempt to convince your GM that Suppressive Fire would allow you to add Dodge twice on full defense (once for being told to add it by the suppressive fire and once for being told to add it for the Full Dodge maneuver), that's a really weak argument. And there's no meaningful argument that you couldn't add Gymnastics (once) in any case.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 8 2008, 03:15 PM) *
So while you could attempt to convince your GM that Suppressive Fire would allow you to add Dodge twice on full defense (once for being told to add it by the suppressive fire and once for being told to add it for the Full Dodge maneuver), that's a really weak argument.

Without arguing that both rules apply and add up, you wouldn't be able to use Gymnastics - as p. 144 doesn't tell you so.
If both rules apply, however you end up benefiting from Dodge twice.

So it's not weaker than arguing "You don't need Dodge".
Larme
As for whether you can gymnastics dodge melee and ranged at the same time -- why would they have said either if they meant both? It's true that it's ambiguous, but common sense would dictate that they included the word either to say either one or the other. I can't prove it. But it's something that goes a long way towards balancing gymanstics dodge. If you interpret gymnastics dodge to work against both at the same time, you're making it more powerful than it needs to be, potentially getting rid of dodge as a useful skill. When there are two available interpretations, one balanced and the other unbalanced, take the balanced one. That should be obvious.

On "needing space:" Do the rules require some amount of space as a precondition for gymnastics dodge? No. So why would anyone try to impose one? The rules are about game balance, not realism. If you try to impose realism, you will end up kicking game balance in the nuts. If it really bothers you that someone wants to gymnastics dodge in an elevator, just impose a penalty on them. That makes sense. It makes a lot more sense than an arbitrary, vague space requirement.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
As for whether you can gymnastics dodge melee and ranged at the same time -- why would they have said either if they meant both?


Because you only ever make one Defense Roll at a time, so "either" means "both" in this case.

-Frank
Prime Mover
Bleh why give example for other two full defense options and not Gymnastics, would have cleared up alot. Keep rereading it and coming away with fact that any of the 3 dodge, parry or gymnastics are interchangable rules wise. Only part not clear on do you follow previous examples were you use reaction + skillx2. So gym+gym in full defense against melee?
Larme
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 8 2008, 10:48 AM) *
Because you only ever make one Defense Roll at a time, so "either" means "both" in this case.

-Frank


That's one way to look at it. Or you could say that when you declare full defense, "either" means to pick one or the other. I can't say you're wrong, but I can't say you're right either, just from reading the text...

And that leaves my second point unrebutted: wouldn't interpreting gymnastics to work the same as dodge on full defense make gymnastics the obvious, no-brainer, superior choice? Don't we want to avoid that?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 8 2008, 12:01 PM) *
And that leaves my second point unrebutted: wouldn't interpreting gymnastics to work the same as dodge on full defense make gymnastics the obvious, no-brainer, superior choice? Don't we want to avoid that?


No. Gymnastics is only a full replacement for Dodge on the bonus dice from a Full Defense action. In melee you additionally passively get to add Dodge or a Melee Combat Skill to your defense pool. Gymnastics does not do that. So to be "better" than Dodge, you need to have Gymnastics and Unarmed Combat. Which means that it costs twice as many BP to get your Defense pool like that. It just happens to come with ninja flipping and ninja kicking.

If you have a character who has no intention of ninja kicking or ninja flipping at any point, then taking Dodge is a cheap way to save some points without exploding the first time people look at you funny in combat. Dodge has a place, it just isn't on the character sheet of a Street Samurai. It's on the character sheet of a Hacker or a Face.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Mar 7 2008, 09:00 PM) *
As a Physical Active skill in the Athletics group it's eligible for boosts from Enhanced Articulation and synthecardium.

Only a Synthacardium does not add to Dodge Tests, only to Gymnastic Tests.
Prime Mover
Still not seeing were you'd get double your gymnastics against melee attacks. Wouldnt that make your obvious choices unarmed + dodge.

On another note would'nt using gymnastics count as a skill test. I mean the only way you can use dodge is in a defensive test...so is'nt that a dodge test? If so then Synthacardium would count.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 8 2008, 12:15 PM) *
Only a Synthacardium does not add to Dodge Tests, only to Gymnastic Tests.


There is no such thing as a "Dodge Test" when you are taking Full Defense actions with the Gymnastic Dodge option. It's called a Defense Test, and it includes Gymnastics. It's not a "Dodge Test." If you're going to split hairs about exact wording, try to use the actual wording and not crap you made up.

QUOTE (Prime Mover)
Still not seeing were you'd get double your gymnastics against melee attacks.


You wouldn't. Although I am given to understand that the German version of the Shadowrun book is unclear on that point and appears to say that you can add your Gymnastics twice in melee when performing full defense. This is a translation error, as the original document does not say that.

QUOTE
Wouldnt that make your obvious choices unarmed + dodge.


No. Your obvious choices are Dodge (alone) or Unarmed + Gymnastics.

QUOTE (Prime Mover)
On another note would'nt using gymnastics count as a skill test. I mean the only way you can use dodge is in a defensive test...so is'nt that a dodge test? If so then Synthacardium would count.


Yes exactly.

-Frank
Larme
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 8 2008, 12:15 PM) *
Only a Synthacardium does not add to Dodge Tests, only to Gymnastic Tests.


Full gymnastics dodge IS a gymnastics test. You roll reaction + gymnastics. If that's not a gymnastics test, nothing is. And why would you want to make gymnastics dodge useless? Did it hurt you or something? Rules lawyering to nerf cool, flavorful things is WRONG. ohplease.gif

@Frank: I see your point. And Gymnastics is also balanced by the fact that there is no (dodge) specialization, right? So even though you can get +4 from synthacardium 3 and enhanced articulation, you lose the +2 that you can get for just 2bp in Dodge against either melee or ranged.

Though I beg to differ that Dodge has no place on the street samurai's sheet. No matter how you slice it, Dodge is cheaper. And gymnastics is nothing special unless you add in the athletics boosting bioware. There are going to be streetsam builds with too much expensive ware to afford athletics ware, and if that's the case then there is no reason to take gymnastics higher than you need for the occasional jump. I think it's totally viable to have a Dodge-based streetsam without a melee combat skill -- if you have, say 20 dice to shoot, you don't really give a damn about the -3 penalty to shooting peoples' faces in melee
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 8 2008, 06:42 PM) *
Full gymnastics dodge IS a gymnastics test.

No. It's a defense roll (once referred to as defense test, too - thanks Frank), with bonus dice from Gymnastics skill ('may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool'). That's RAW.

So Reflex Recorder or Improved Ability (both create an augmented skill rating) apply, but a Synthacardium does not... while Enhanced Articulation still adds.

PS:
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 8 2008, 06:42 PM) *
And why would you want to make gymnastics dodge useless?

Why make Dodge useless?
FrankTrollman
[Removed]
ElFenrir
I dunno. We always played it that if something adds to a skill, it adds to a skill. To me, im not seeing a difference from:

Player: Ok, i use my Gymnastics to jump and flip.

Player 2: I use my Gymnastics to jump and flip during the fight to try to not be hit.

Player 1 is doing it in a non combat situation. Player 2 is doing it in a combat situation. Player 2 has to be a little faster about it, sure(hence Reaction + Gymnastics test), but for Synthacardium not to count for player 2's variant makes no sense, at all, that I can see. Synthacardium adds to Gymnastics, Running, the Athletics group and Physical skills. When you use those skills, you get the benefit. No sense at all not to. Is player 2's flip different somehow? Used in combat, perhaps it might look different but i still don't see any sense to not have Synthacardium or Enhanced Articulation count. Anyway, we play with the solution that makes more sense to us.

As for this thread, yeah, im sort of in the park of if you have some good melee, you can get by with Gymnastics. Though i could see a sam that if they wanted to pump Dodge to ridiculous levels(like, a 5 or 6 with a specialization), they get to roll a pretty scary Dodge when they wanted to. But yeah, i do think its a little better in the hands of someone without melee.
Larme
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 8 2008, 01:00 PM) *
No. It's a defense roll (once referred to as defense test, too - thanks Frank), with bonus dice from Gymnastics skill ('may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool'). That's RAW.

So Reflex Recorder or Improved Ability (both create an augmented skill rating) apply, but a Synthacardium does not... while Enhanced Articulation still adds.

PS:

Why make Dodge useless?


As I said, you're putting an awfully fine point on it in a meaningless effort to nerf gymnastic dodge. Do you want to discourage people from using it? Because that's what your interpretation would do. It would become a useless little tidbit in the book, and I don't think that's the way the devs intended it. And more importantly, I don't think that's how anyone would prefer to play it, except you.

And allowing athletics ware to boost gymnastics dodge would not hurt Dodge's efficacy. Dodge is already cheaper than gymnastics, since you don't need to combine it with a melee skill to defend yourself. Gymnastics is effecitvely twice the price of Dodge, and using bioware it can achieve a 3-4 dice advantage. You're suggesting that making gymnastics exactly as good as dodge for twice the price is appopriate. Laughable. rotfl.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
To be correct, Synthacardium adds to Athletics tests only.

The distinction between Bonus Dice to certain tests and Augmented Skill seems important enough to stress it in the main book - Augmented Skill is indeed limited. And what tests an implant adds to is imporatant enough to be the main difference between Attention coprocessor and Reception Enhancer.

So if Synthacardium was meant to be 'Get some defense dice cheap', it would be noted that way, wouldn't it?
Larme
@Rotbart: You have said in every post so far that adding gymnastics dice to defense is not the same as making a gymnastics test. No matter how people respond, you just repeat yourself.

Here's what I want you to answer: WHY do you insist on reading it this way? WHAT do we get out of it? Why is your interpretation the BEST one? Grammar is only one factor when analyzing a rule. The precise wording of the book is not the controlling factor here. Shadowrun is about playing a fun game, not about playing semantics. Does your interpretation improve the game? I would submit that, by nerfing gymnastics, you effectively write it out of the game. By nerfing synthacardium, you effectively write it out of the game. Your reading of the RAW is one possible way to read it, but it's not the only way. Your grammatical interpretation needs to be backed up by something concrete. When interpreting an ambiguous rule, it is crucial to select the interpretation that improves, instead of worsens the game. By nerfing a cool skill and some cool ware, you are diminishing the diversity and versatility and fun of the game. How do you justify that?
nathanross
I do find it maddening that we even need to argue over the plausibility of performing matrix style dodges. I really wish they would have left Gymnastics Dodge out of the rules completely, but since it's there, Ill just have to live with it.

Now, I posted this earlier, but apparently some people haven't read it yet. So lets take a look again the actual rules:
QUOTE (SR4 @ p.151)
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.

Now am I the only one (besides Rotbart) that sees that is clearly says that you "add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool"? THIS IS NOT A GYMNASTICS TEST! A Gymnastics test is an Agility + Gymnastics (Threshold) test to perform a Gymnastic maneuver. This is a Defense test (Opposed) with Reaction + DP modifiers (which Dodge, Gymnastics, and Cyberware can augment). How is this Athletics test? Do you allow Synthacardium to be a DP modifier to all Dodge tests?

Some people claim that it already costs twice as much karma to make Gymnastics Dodge the exact same as Dodge, and that the +DP from Synthacardium is only fair. This is bullshit. You were lucky the rules enabled you to munch your characters enough that you did not even need Dodge skill to still get +DP on Dodge tests. Quit thinking about BP efficiency and make a real character.

EDIT - I completely to address Gymnastics (Dodge) specialization. Why there is no specialization for Dodge in Gymnastics (and why it would be pointless to make one) is because a specialization does not augment the skill rating. It merely acts as a DP modifier when performing a specific action using that skill. Since you are not actually using Gymnastics skill to Dodge (if you were it would be an Agility + Gymnastics Opposed test), you do not get specialization dice.
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