yeah. i'm not really arguing RAW, since there isn't much RAW to argue. just making a case that a GM could reasonably allow gymnastic dodging inside a car.

Personally, I'd rather allow other Physical Skills when they are more appropriate than Gymnastics... like Swimming, Diving or Parachuting, etc. - while Dodge is still the standard for all occasions.

that wouldn't be a bad way to balance it, assuming it needs balancing. apply penalties to gymnastic/swimming/diving/escape artist dodge tests that wouldn't apply to normal dodge tests.

That wasn't so much about penalties but rather the fact that there is no cartwheeling around in/under water or on a parachute and one would use another kind of movement training - and thus, another skill.

Penalties should apply when the best possible skill available to the character isn't that good, either. As a sidenote, passenger defense tests in a vehicle suffer a general -2.

I like that idea of substituing other Athletic Skills in certain situations.

To get back to the Synthacardium and Gymnastics Dodge ...

Rotbart: You state (and so does canon) that Gymnastic Dodge means that a person is flipping, cartwheeling, etc out of the way. If a Synthacardium grants its bonus to a person when they are doing all those things outside of combat, why do you think it suddenly magically does not do so when someone swings at them?

i don't think that's necessarily true, especially when there are multiple methods of accomplishing the same goal. for instance, if a character needs to get information out of someone, he might roll Intimidation, Con, or Negotiation, with different mods for each.

Y'know, only slightly on topic, but my reluctance to allow synthecardium is partly due to fluffy stuff. I mean, from the reading the synthetic heart is supposed to improve endurance, while 'dodging' isn't really an endurance thing... all that extra bloodflow means jack and spit at the moment of truth. I'll admit to bias when I say that the athletics test portion of the implant description is meaningful to me in disallowing dodge tests...


Just sayin'.

I will Recycle Arguments/Examples 1-4 follow up with comments 1-3 included borderline Snarky content.

+1 Post Count

WMS

then why does it help on gymnastics at all? you're not expending more effort if your cartwheel happens to take you out of the path of a bullet. it's still gymnastics.

It has another side effect: It allows flying critters to make a Flight Dodge.


First things first: Game balance. As a dice bonus it's not limited by skill in any way and it's pretty cheap. Especially if one compares it to the other implants that give a bonus to defense.
It's even more blatant for Enhanced Articulation which provided a bonus to, well, pretty much everything involving movement in SR3 - in SR4 it's down to physical skill tests involving physical attributes... gone is the support for combat and technical skills.
Even without direct combat support, EA is still a very useful implant well worth it's cost, though - and so is the Synthacardium... which in SR3 only supported combat supplementary.

Then there is the second thing - both Gymnastic Dodge and Falling Damage Resistance only talk about 'skill dice'.
Similar to what Spike pointet out: What counts may be routine, not just performance. And a Synthacardium may enhance your performance, but not your routine. A Reflex Recorder (Athletics)/(Gymnastics) would, on the other hand... and thus be applicable to Gymnastic Dodge.

Well, from an endurance point of view, do you consider it reasonable, and would you (in your games) allow it to offset the cumulative penalty for dodging multiple attacks (up to its rating)?

Personally though, I think the whole problem would be solved if Dodge was moved from Combat into Physical Skills (allowing for Enhanced Articulation), and the Synthacardium was to add its rating to that skill as well.

And the Synthacardium would add its rating to any and all variations.

No, as the Watchful Guard maneuver implies that said penalty isn't caused by lack of endurance.


That would require the Synthacardium rules to be changed similaor to the Enhanced Articulation rules.
And then make them provide a Skill Bonus instead of a Dice Bonus.


Last time I checked, Flight was not part of the Athletics skill group.

Well, one thing seriously lacking in Shadowrun is good fatigue rules for combat. I will tell you this: Little in life is as tiring as fighting for your life... or even just seriously pretending to...

Then again, few, if any, games cover that... ho hum, just another walk in the park as I avoid streaming hot lead and kill half a dozen heavily armed goons... pardon me while I get my latte....



Seriously, if there was a good codified penalty (and when to apply it) for long term combat because of fatigue, I'd totally be on board with allowing synthcardium to offset it... even for gymnastics dodges... or regular ones.

Also: I have realized my earlier 'I wouldn't allow'... stance must be mollified a bit: In an elevator or other 'confined space' I'd merely penalize the gymnastics dodger, not 'disallow it'...though being strapped into a car still is right out.


And finally, what I've been wanting to say for DAYS now: GYMKATA, fool!

But performing one cartwheel is also not a matter of endurance, and yet the Synthacardium aids in that task. Why not when doing the same cartwheel to avoid a bat?




Not necessarily. Just add 'and Dodge' to the wording of Synthacardium. I like bonus dice.



True. But by canon, there's no reason that a flying being cannot perform acrobatic and gymnastic maneuvers, thereby gaining the benefit of the skill. After all, walking or running beings are not barred from using gymnastics to enhance their movement.

If that was still a problem though, I would just add 'and Flight' right after the 'and Dodge' part.

I'd say that "Flight" isn't in the skills list at all because (meta)humans aren't meant to fly naturally, thus they have no need for the skill. For creatures who *do* fly, I'd say it's definitely an athletics-style skill.

And just for devil's advocate, 1 cartwheel doesn't require endurance, but one cartwheel after being involved in combat, dodging to save your own life and sweating bullets does definitely need the endurance.

Sorry for making you misunderstand my point.
While it is nice to have endurance, the real problem as per SR4 is how well the character can react to those attacks.

Just most flying creatures don't have Gymnastics. And it still would be another kind of movement.

There are rules for Fatigue that the Synthacardium applies to.

I'm still trying to figure out why the folks who want to keep it working as it usually is in most people's games it seems(or most folks here that posted anyway...Synthacardium adding dice to any test involving the Athletics skill), and the folks who think it's overpowered, to just play the game how they want.

I don't personally agree with the latter, I let it count, because I hardly think a couple of dice on a gymnastics dodge test is unbalanced in any way, and can throw off the game in any way, especially since you already paid more for it, but hey, whoever wants to think otherwise is welcome to. (The whole issue of this super-delicate game balance always confused me anyway. We play with chax2 contact points, the last attribute point costing 20 rather than 25 and no Availability limit and we never had a balance issue. And we dont even shoot things all the time.)

It's quite obvious the two sides are never going to meet here. personally, i rule in favor of fun at all times, no matter what any damn book says.

Time and time again this kind of post is made.

I'm still waiting for someone to realize they're posting this stuff in: Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun

Because people (myself included) are not merely talking about how things work in their own games, but what is and isn't the strict canon rule on the matter. Both sides claim they are right, both logically and canonically.

There you go again. This is the nth time you've repeated 'nuh uh, I can't be wrong because I'm right.' My argument is invalid because your arugment is valid. Do you get dizzy from making so many circular arguments? If you would concede that your interpretation is not the only valid one, I'd at least respect your position. But as it stands, I can't. If you can't see both sides of the argument, it's because you refuse to try, not because there aren't two sides.

This is a question that I really hope they address in the FAQ soon.

for what it's worth, the control rig (which adds anytime the player makes a vehicle skill roll while rigging) gives +2 dice to all agi tests a cyborg makes when they are in a humanoid body and using their pilot skill for agi. this (to me) indicates that adding a skill into the dicepool (even if, as in this case, we are talking skill + skill as the dicepool in many instances) makes the test a test of that skill.

Hey, it's cool. I admit ive been a little tempted to enter myself(taking the side of ''It Makes sense to Use it'' as i said), but reading it might be better. I wasn't trying to offend, just making a point on how it doesn't seem like anyone is going to really give here, but now i understand folks aren't really trying to make people give. Hey, i guess since it hasn't gotten to flames yet butting heads can be healthy, i guess. Carry on.

No offense taken. I was merely giving a valid reason for our latest seemingly useless endeavor.

Yes. Let's talk about Game Balance. Getting a Melee Skill and Gymnastics is a Street Samurai schtick. They are the people who drop points on flipping and kicking instead of saving points and just taking the defense dice. Synthacardiums are Street Samurai equipment. They are the ones who invest in bioware that enhances physical skills and combat ability. So tell me: how many pages did the recent discussion about whether Street Samurai were obsolete go?

If you take away the nice things that Street Samurai get, what possible evidence do you have that the game will become more balanced? Street Samurai aren't exactly dominating the universe in most people's games. They have access to some very high defense pools and they need them. Spirits and Magicians and Riggers blow the living crap out of things. Street Samurai have a relatively short list of ways that they come out on top. And 18+ die defense pools is one of them. It's on the short list of things that justify the existence of Street Samurai, why the fuck would you take it away in the name of game balance?

-Frank

I think, Frank, that that is exactly the point. Notice that many of the ones who are arguing against allowing it are the same ones who argued that Street Sams were obsolete?

I would love to see something directly addressing this in the FAQ, but I know my GM and I(basicly, in our group, we are the rules people, and we sit around debating rules issues alot) have gone over this, and our conclusion was: Gymnastics Dodge requires room to move. However, we also remember break dancing, and we assume that most people in a car are not buckled in because, well, this is SHADOWRUN! You are not going to be strapped into a 5 point harness when you are hanging out a door shooting at someone. We have also seen chinese gymnasts. So, we firmly believe that there is a lot less room needed then most people seem to think. On top of that, we concluded that certain Adept powers(wall running) add the ability for gymnastics dodge to places it would not normally be allowed. I think we basicly finally concluded that the only time gymnastics dodge wuldn't be possible would be either in place where you could not move at all(you can still do The Worm and certain break dance moves in a car, so..I could see allowing it with a penalty there, provided you are not buckled in.)

For the Synthacardium? That is a whole other can of worms. We basicly hammered things out, and finally concluded that the Synthacardium had to apply either to ALL tests involving Gymnastics or none. We finally decided that, based on our inherent reluctance for House Rules, to go with All Tests Involving Gymnastics. As someone pointed out above, Gymnastics includes jumping, tumbling, BALLROOM DANCING AND THE FRACKING MINUET!!(my mind boggles!) And outside of combat, you do one cartwheel, you get the bonus, why is it different in combat? NOTE: the RAW is kind of, to us, ambiguous on this, so...We took the most liberal interpretation of the rules.

Besides that, there is the general Dumpshock belief that disallowing something cramps the players style, and is a mark og GM tyranny. And since Dumpshock IS the entire Shadowrun community, we figure that that community consensus should generally be given some thought in any rules decision.

As is getting a Dodge skill. You know, even the Archetype did. In fact, he did get the Athletics skill Group instead of Gymnastics. And he has no Synthacardium... but cybereyes, spurs, wired reflexes, muscle replacement and dermal armor. You know - what people usually consider street sam equipment.

So, somehow said argument is a circular meme:
People find out that Gymnastics may be used to defend and then wrongly assume the a Synthacardium applies as well on Defense Tests... so it becomes the optimal build for the 'street samurai' and everything that is not that optimal build is not a street samurai, so pointing out that Gymnastics may not be the be-all-end-all defense option and that a Synthacardium by RAW does not apply to Defense nor Damage Resistance tests suddenly is ruining the street samurai...


Sure, that's the reason some of them will get a MBW and React treatment. Some just a Reflex Recorder on Dodge and a SA... perhaps even on the Athletics skillgroup.


So let's go for a bit balanced build for a second: Of course, he won't drop exceptional Attribute and Aptitude on defense - that is better spend on offense. He'll has a MBW level 2 and Reaction 5 - so he's already at Reaction 5(9). His Dodge isn't that shabby, either - say it's only 5, too, with a spec on ranged combat.. so with the Bonus from the MBW, he's at 5(7)(+2). Then he throws in a React treatment, getting him a general +2 on Defense.

So, suddenly, we got a guy with 11 dice on general Defense and... 20 dice on Full Defense for ranged combat... and 18 for melee.
Sure, I totally can agree with you that a full defense pool of 18+ dice totally depends on the houserule that a Synthacardium adds to Defense Tests, too.


Yes, I can totally see that not allowing a single implant to provide bonus dice to a test the rule don't make it provide bonus dice to ruins the entire viability of characters and thus Game Balance. Because, every street sam is comes by default with it.

But, wait - I now see the error in my ways!
By the proclamation of the enligthend Frank, a 'true steet sam' entirely depends on melee and gymnastics, without even having Dodge! And of course, an MBW provides a skill bonus to Dodge - so its not 'true street sam equipment', and no character that has a MBW can possibily be a 'true street sam'!

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I recall reading in the BBB something to the effect that Gymnastic Dodge requires room.

Nono, it just tells you to need be cartwheeling, rolling, flipping, etc.
And we all know that's perfectly possibly in any kind of situation.

The Archetype was written before the Gymnastic Dodge action even existed.

-Frank

So? Was he changed afterwards?

But, tell me - were the current rules for MBW also written before Gymnastic Dodge was implemented?
If not... why exactly does the WR replacement for street samurai give a Bonus to Dodge if street samurai are not inteded to even have Dodge?

Move by Wire are actually a bad fit for most Street Samurai. They provide very large Reaction bonuses at the cost of very large piles of Essence. And by very large, I mean "larger than most Street Samurai can actually benefit from within the Augmented Caps." Move By Wire thus, is not for high end Street Samurai. It's for normal people who are being brought up to Street Samurai levels in a hurry. A dedicated Samurai gets better bonuses for less Essence from Synaptic Boosters and a Synthacardium, but a Corp Security Grunt kicks a lot more ass with the Move-by-Wire.

And yes, I did help write the new Move By Wire system, thanks for bringing it up. It actually illustrates the point pretty well. It was shifted in its role from previous editions (where it was a death sentence but made you the baddest mofo on the planet) on the grounds that the basic ware in the basic book actually allowed Street Samurai to hit the caps fairly well and prolonging the reaction arms race was seen as a bad thing by Peter and Rob. So the 4e Move By Wire system lives in a different eco niche - it's the thing that cost effectively jumps mooks up to play with the big boys. And that's why it boosts Dodge.

-Frank

i'll note that it seems pretty counterintuitive to create a skill, and then toss in another skill that is better than the original skill in every way. the original gymnastic dodge was a complementary skill; SR4 got rid of complementary skills. it seems a bit odd to bring them back for one special case, especially when that special case makes no real-world sense at all. flipping and rolling really doesn't change your overall target profile enough to be as (or more) effective than just zigging and zagging at top speed.

I never considered MBW a street sam gear. It's way to expensive in every sense of the word. It's like a rigger wanting to own a Ferrari. Great car but is it worth the 2 million Nuyen? No. Dodge does not belong on a sam's sheet. My first SR4 character had dodge and I learned that in the first game. Why? to use it you have to take Full Def, which means you aint doing nothing else. So while you are spinning and whirling five guys are shooting at you. And each one takes 2 dice away from your pool and your not shooting back. Bottom line, you will get hit dodge or no. Better to spend those points reducing the damage you take in more traditional ways i.e. soak it!

I agree with just about everything Frank has said, Sam's are getting the shaft in favor of magic, stop trying to take things away from us.

Actually, given the current rules on Essence Holes, it is pretty much the only option for Street Samurais - that start with Wired Reflexes.

Of course, boosting your natural Reaction Cap to 8 though Qualities and Genetech allows that 'non-high-end' street samurai to have an Reaction of 6(12). Again, I totally agree with you - that's not high-end and Karma is no issue for player characters.


Just there is that little problem that Synaptic Boosters won't get you at Reaction 12 if you maxed your cap, ever.
And of course, you only add 'Gymnastics skill' to both defense and falling damage resistence, so anything that does not provide an augmented Gymnastics skill rating and is not expressively a defense/damage resistence dice bonus is out of the window, too.

...unless you combine it with a Reaction Enhancer. Which you can do. And still be in the black Essence wise.

Honestly Rotbart, what are you trying to accomplish?

-Frank

Wait, weren't we just told that it's 'cost-effective'?

Of course, that means you won't need any Gymnastics Dodge as well.

RAW already did, so I don't need to try.
But of course, since you don't use Full Defense at all, you don't really have to care that a Synthacardium does not improve Gymnastic Dodge at all.

Of course, the best thing is that it's not even mentioned a single time in both skill description.


That depends. It has the same wording as Wired Reflexes concerning non-compatibility with any other initative enhancement.
And if you go by FAQ, that rules out RE for WR... and thus, for SA, too.

Sure, there are other options to get those missing Reaction Points.

Rotbart, I think it is important to note again that I am not currently working for Catalyst. I have never been a lead developer. And I won't ever write another Shadowrun book. But I did write important sections of two rule books and still talk to some of the other authors on a regular basis.

The distinction you are trying to make between a "Foo Test" and a "Test that adds Foo" is one which does not exist in Shadowrun4 nomenclature. Those two things are the same in natural English, and while some games make an artificial distinction between them, SR4 does not. Our actual instructions for writing the thing includes using those nomenclatures interchangeably. An Agility + Longarms test is an Agility Test. And it's a Longarms Test. And it's a Firearms Test And it's a Combat Skill Test. And it's a test based on a Physical Attribute. Most probably it's an Attack Test as well. All of those things apply.

-Frank

In fact, SR4 makes said distinction for bonus dice to a certain kind of test and a skill bonus.

Thus it's certain that Improved Ability (Gymnastics) and Reflex Recorder (Gymnastics)/(Athletics) will apply when using Gymnastic Dodge or Resisting Falling damage, as only Gymnastics skill dice are considered - and those implants actually do create an Augmented Skill Rating.
Of course that adds nicely to the fact that having a real good heart will mean squat for not breaking your legs.

When using Gymnastic Dodge, you add your Gymnastics skill to the Dodge + Dodge Test. Any modifiers to the Gymnastics skill-and this also applies to general modifiers to the Athletics skill group, which Gymnastics is in-apply to the test.

That reflex recorders work was always clear since they add to the skill rating. The question is whether or not modifiers to a gymnastic skill test apply to the gymnastic dodge test.

Sure. The question is:
Does the modifier from the Synthacardium apply at all?

From the Full Defense and Falling Damage Resistance rules, it doesn't.
And the Implant rules only tell us that it adds to skill tests... which neither of them are. Simply because there is no Defaulting involved when on doesn't have the Skill.

Given that there are individual restrictions in the rule when a dice pool bonus applies, Enhanced Articulation or Attention Coprocessor/Reception Enhancer being the most defined ones, it's not at all a given that the wording in the case of the Synthacardium is just to be glossed over.

And, again:
The Synthacardium and Enhanced Articulation are a very good deal, both essence as well as nuyen cost wise, even if by RAW, they don't apply to Falling Damage Resistance and Defense tests.

Well, that is two members (or ex-members) of the development staff that have given their opinion, both of which happen to agree. Unfortunately it looks like we will also have to hear from both Synner and Rob before this is put to rest.

They should just write an example, and add it to the FAQ. That would make it clear.

..wait a second. You are truying to tell us that a Gymnastic Dodge is Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics?
Of course that would solve this whole "True Street Sams don't need no Dodge" insanity.


Just a sidenote - does that mean one can get a Reflex Recoder (Skillgroup) and a Reflex Recorder (Skill from Skillgroup), then breakt the skillgroup... and both Reflex Recorder still apply?

having a real good heart won't help you run faster or jump further or lift more, either--it will just help you run fast and jump far and lift more for longer intervals before collapsing from exhaustion. as synthcardiums apply to other athletics tests on which endurance has no direct effect, it would be inappropriate to not apply it to this application of the Gymnastics skill for that reason.

besides, by your logic, Improved Ability in melee skills would not apply to melee full defense, since IA only adds bonus dice.

In Melee combat it is. Or Reaction + Melee + Gymnastics, whichever you choose to use.




No. Because it specifies that the effects of multiple recorders don't stack in the description of the ware.

-Frank

Actually no, IA is one of the three things that actually creates an Augmented Skill Rating.