It only needs to be "noted that way" for people who, for some unfathomable reason, think that using gymnastics dodge isn't an "athletics test". There do seem to be a number of GMs who want to nerf gymnastics dodge, though, so any player considering synthcardium should run it by the GM first, to be sure.


As far as taking ranged specializations to gymnasics - personally, I would let people use the tumbling proficiency for gymnastics dodge in ranged or melee full defense, so it's not like I'm a hard GM. But the trouble with new specializations is that they have to be approved by the GM. With dodge, the specializations are already there.

I think you misunderstand our purpose. We are not trying to make your game less fun. We are arguing what it actually says in the book. If you want to house rule a skill the way you want it, be my guest. Just remember that it is a house-rule. Besides, I really don't see how not having +1 to +4 dice nerfs the Gymnastics Dodge. There are still plenty of ware/genetech to augment any defense test. Gymnastics is still a useful skill even without its Dodge capability.

That's funny - wasn't this thread all about 'Let's write Dodge out of the game'?
In fact, even if not using Gymnastic Dodge when it is not the abolutely best option for all defense tests, a character still needs Gymnastics to perform... gymnastic tests. You know, for jumping, balancing and falling - things runners never do, right?


Using Synthacardium as an athletics enhancement (you know, like it's written in the rules) instead of making it the ultimate must-have combat enhancement (better than a move-by-wire concerning full defense) for every fighter is hardly 'nerfing' it.

As far as I am concerned, an Athletics test is a test including any skill from the Athletics Skill Group.

Then in your games, Synthacardium bonus dice do not apply when defaulting?
Looks like skill inclusion is not the only criteria involved. Like other rules declaring it a defense test if it's for defense, and an athletics test if it's for sports... no matter if a specific skill involved.

It is Freezing in Hell....and a Bleu Moon I agree with Fortune.

WMS

That is a totally grammatical distinction. You're right that the rules don't call it a gymnastics test. But does that mean it isn't? A skill test is one where you roll attribute + skill. In gymnastics dodge, you roll reaction + gymnastics. It might not be explicitly called a gymnastics test, but does it look exactly like any other skill test? You bet. Could we read the RAW your way? Yes. Is anything forcing us to? No.

Please give up telling us that just because it isn't called a gymnastics test, that it can't possibly be one. It has been repeated over and over. Saying it in bold does not make it any more convincing.

What I want to hear now is some kind of justification. WHY should we accept your reading of the RAW? Why should we make gymnastics stupid, and synthacardium worthless? Just because the wording suggests that maybe we should? I don't think so. How would the game be better if we do it your way? I submit that it wouldn't. It would be less diverse, less fun, less interesting. I have yet to hear any response to this.

I have already rebutted this. Dodge is still great, because it costs half as much. With gymnastics, you must also have either dodge or a melee skill, since gymnastics doesn't do anything against melee except on full defense. Dodge is not worthless, dodge is fantastic. The question is now: why should we make gymnastics equal, but twice the price?



Gymnastics is obviously useful for those reasons. But if we accept your interpretation, gymnastics will be worthless as a defensive skill. I don't accept that the devs allowed us to use gymnastics as a defensive skill with the intent that it would be a lame idea to use it that way.



I'll accept that gymnastics + synthacardium is flat-out better than dodge. But why the hell not? It costs twice as much because it forces you to buy a melee skill. Twice the price for +3 dice in addition, plus having to spend the money and essence on bioware? Sounds reasonable to me. Why do you think that's not a good balance?

Sure it would. A defaulted Gymnastics test would use that Skill rank of '0' (with a -1 penalty for doing so).

No, you didn\'t. After all, it\'s still all about skipping on Dodge.


The answer is: The question is wrong.
Gymnastics is a skill only secondarily used for defense, so it\'s cost is not tied to defense value.
And the premise still depends on the mistaken assumption that a Synthacardium applies to Defense Tests. Which it does not by RAW.


Luckily for Gymnastics, it is not a defensive skill - it is a sports skill, used for bouncing arround.
To use it on full defense is an option, sure... but why should it be a better option than the skill described as the defense skill?


So ho do you explain the dev\'s intent of not stating in the Dodge skill deskription: If you have both melee and gymnastics anyway, you can safely skip on dodge?


Because you calculation is off by the fact that one needs Gymnastics anyway, even if not for defense.
Pretty much the same thing goes for a melee skill. Sure you can go by around some time without, but there will be situations where the character\'s options will be less without those skills... and that\'s the thing that makes up most of \'twice the price\'.

Of course it\'s tough to swallow that one\'s \'character build optimization\' is not as cut&dry as one likes it to be.

One other thing to note... Gymnastics as dodge ends up costing more for 2 reasons: 1) You have to take a second skill to cover melee dodging (already noted above) and 2) the skill itself costs no more or less than any other, but because it can do more than just Dodge, it's really worth more anyway. Think of it... Gymnastics can cover running, tumbling, jumping, climbing, flips, spins, balance, landing, etc etc etc. Dodge covers... dodge. Yay. You're getting a *lot* more utility out of Gymnastics by taking that skill, so I'm confused why people are upset at the cost.

Even if you took away dodge from the list of things Gymnastics would allow for, how does that make the skill useless? Sure, you can't dodge with it, but it still covers a bunch of other things just fine, and those things are kind of the spirit of the skill anyway, IMO.

Um...no.

Running covers running.
Climbing covers climbing.

Gymnastics can cover the rest of that though.

Fair enough, though I'd classify Free running or Jackie Chan style climbing as gymnastics. That's too crazy for normal climbing. hehe

I'd use the lowest of the applicable skills - it cuts down on the 1-skill-to-rule-them-all syndrome.

I've been looking for Defense Test in the books, I've not found it. Did you coin the term or can it be found in the books?

As stated in RAW, in combat, you make an Opposed Test rolling certain skills and attributes. It is not stated that the rolls made by the Attacker is an Attack Test or rolls made by the Defender is a Defense Test (certainly I might have missed something, so please point it out).

How do we determine what is a Skill/Skill Group Test? As long as I see Attribute + Skill(which may be in a Skill Group) Test, it is both a test of that Attribute and that Skill. I have not seen a RAW definition of what constitutes a Skill Test as yet, but I feel that what is a Skill Test is intuitive enough even for me.

Not sure cause at work right now, but think term "defense test" is mentioned in full defense section. Also there is mention of gymnastics test in official FAQ for some clarification. I looked for definetion of skill test as well and only coming up the obvious like just about everyone else attribute+skill.

According to your reading of RAW, sure. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Gymnastics dodge looks like a gymnastics test and acts like a gymnastics test, so it's easy to see why it could actually *be* a gymnastics test. It is a totally valid reading of the RAW that a gymnastics dodge test is a gymnastics test. You can cover your ears and make noise all you want, but that fact is not going to go away. You have to accept that you are advocating one of two possible interpretations of RAW, and not providing any justification for why your choice is the better one.



Oh really? I guess it has *primary use* and *secondary use* specified in the RAW, so we know which one is primary and which one is secondary? It doesn't? Well how about that. There's no basis for calling one use primary and another secondary, each one seems just as important as the other, to me.



rotfl. Are you for real? How is this even relevant?



One might need gymnastics for general use, but usually not more than a few dice. Taking high gymnastics, by your interpretation, is something only an acrobat type would do. Of course, since all an acrobat can do, under your interpretation, is jump, tumble, and dance really well, I don't think we'll be seeing very many of those. Good for a jester, bad for a shadowunner.

And this has nothing to do with my own ideas about optimization. I tend to stick with just dodge, since either my characters are pressed for BP, or they can't afford the bioware, or they just don't appear to be the jumpy flippy type. It's not just about optimization. It's about options. It's about having a choice between cheaper, more efficient Dodge, or more expensive, more powerful Gymnastics. It's about letting characters be more diverse and flavorful. I recognize that your interpretation wouldn't ban people from taking gymnastics dodge, but it makes it a whole lot less appealing for no reason.

I still have not heard one good reason why gymnastics ought to be nerfed. "Because the RAW said so" is not valid, because it's not as cut and dried as that.

SR4 RAW page 148



The combination of those two words only occurs once in the SR4 BBB. It occurs no where else in any of the SR4 books.

But since Frank is one of the developers or used to be, I take his words/interpretation of this with more than a grain of salt.

On athletics
page 56


Page 74


page 114


page 339


Augmentation page 91

Augmentation page 94


Ok from those quotes it is plain to see that Gymnastics is part of the Athletics Group of Skills.

Gymnastics Dodge is a subset of the Full Defense Option.

BBB page 54 Under heading Making Tests


A test uses dice and skills to determine the outcome of action.

Athletics(Gymnastics) Dodge is a test.

Ip so facto it is a Athletics test, so gains bonuses from the synthacardium.

WMS

One intresting question is if Reaction + Gymnastics doesn't apply Synthcardium because its not a gymnastics test, because agility isn't involved, does program + Electronic warfare use a Math SPU?

If you want to see why it might not, look at the torturous language in the paragraph above for Encephalon -



Which Math SPU doesn't have.

Frank's interpretations are not always the same as the official dev line... even his own creation, posessing tradtidion allies turned on him.


It does to En/Decryption, because it says so... and Decryption is a Program + Response test, anyway... so there is no skill involved at all.

There is no Defaulting involved in the Defense Test if you don't have Gymnastics, so it's not a skill test.


If you keep insisting that 'better' means 'that benefits optimized builds the most', sure.


Those primary are noted in the skill description. You know, what people look at to choose skills.
You are free to point out the defense reference for gymnastics.


Thanks for pointing out that your belief about dev's intent is irrelevant.


Wow... that's like saying not everyone buys driving skills high, just characters that would be driver types! Or shooting skills!
Madness!


Yeah, who needs jumping anyway as a runner - there's always a safety net between two rooftops.


Where it is seven suggested that Gymnastics should be more powerful?

Which means it doesn't do anything, because it specifically says it only applies to *electronic warfare* tests that involve encryption or decryption, of which encryption/decryption is not one?

First off, to address what Larme said earlier: "I still have not heard one good reason why gymnastics ought to be nerfed. "Because the RAW said so" is not valid, because it's not as cut and dried as that."

It is as cut and dried as that. You may think that grammer is pointless, however, the rest of us use grammar to communicate something. I do not find the description of Gymnastics Dodge ambiguous in any way. Do not confuse your desire for it to be a certain way with what the developers intended. That is a logical fallacy. Im not saying that I want to nerf the rules, Im trying to say what the rules actually say. Where you go from there is up to you.

As for the rest, Rotbart said it clearly enough:



---

Hey eveyone's human. The programs are still listed as Electronics Warfare, even if the tests do not include them. The problems with that description are not the same as the problems with the description of Gymnastics Dodge however.

Neither do I! Gymnastics is a Skill included in the Athletics Skill Group. A Synthacardium adds its rating to tests from the Athletics Skill Group. The Gymnastics Skill can be substituted for the Dodge Skill in certain circumstances. I see nothing that would lead anyone to believe that the Synthacardium does not apply to Gymnastic Dodge.

Yes, grammar communicates things. In this case, it communicates them ambiguously. You can pretend that it's perfectly clear, and there's no room for argument, but that doesn't make it so. Case in point: lots of people disagree. If it were just as clear as you say, I don't think that this would be the case.

Regardless, this argument has become enormously retarded. I've tried to be reasonable and coax the other side to meet me on the various points at issue, but all I've got is stubborn repetition of the same arguments. It is clear that, motivated by reasons which they have refused to reveal, those in disagreement with the general consensus on how gymnastics works are not going to concede even an inch. So what's the point of continuing the discussion?

Again I said what he says needs to be taken with more than a grain of salt. That does not mean everything he says is gospel. But it does rank higher than most here, exception being the developers/designers, but I too have issues with the designers/developers but I do not care to receive the "Cain" sanction, so I will not go there.

RAW BBB page 124

Page 225
Under Using Electronic Warfare

The only part of EW that uses EW with out skill is the Software part. I can use a Encephalon to encode or decode communications.

Mate, I'm the one that came up with the EW example, you are preaching to the choir. Just that narrow defination of synthcardium seems to preclude maths SPU functioning in any way.

Yet even before he was a Dev. Frank showed a near encyclopedic knowledge of rules minutea, surpassing even my own.

Frank is also very clear when his version of the rules disagrees with the official line. Here he is pointing the official interpretation of the official line

Hey Synner, care to confirm if the rest of the devs agree with frank on this one?

That's mosty due to the fact that you kept on whining that actually going by the RAW would 'nerf' the Option Gymnastic Dodge... which it doesn't.
You simply failed to point out where it is stated, or even hinted at, in the rules that Gymnastic Doge is a complete and better replacement for Full Dodge especially for evading Supressive Fire.

On the other hand, the matter of the Synthacardium is a whole different kettle of fish - the viability of Gymnastic Dodge as general option does not depend on an implant the character may or may not possess.

My latest two characters both got dodge, melee skills, and gymnastics - simply because gymnastics is more than dodging, covering dance and tumbling as well, and I feel that a dodge action that does not involve flips and cartwheels has its place too.

Of course it nice to get Dodge anyway - simply because one does not buy Gymnastics, but the Athletics skillgroup, which is pretty slow to advance, yet a lot cheaper than getting all four included skills seperatly.

Dude, Dodge is given as the only example of what to add to Defense Pools on Full Defense in both the Ranged Combat and Melee Combat sections. Gymnastic Dodge and Full Parry are advanced options and only get mentioned at all in the Full Defense write up. Using the fact that the other mentions of Defense Dice don't exhaustively mention the secondary options as evidence that the secondary options don't apply every time Full Defense is mentioned is just stupid.

You are seriously reaching at straws here, and I don't know why you bother. The RAW is actually quite clear on this point.

-Frank

The Make the Opposed Test section Combat talks of 'defensive skill', not Dodge - so what's your point again?

Certainly not the fact that the rules for Supressive Fire are not the usual opposed combat test.

I have, multiple times. Here it is one last time: if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Gymnastics dodge looks and acts just like a gymnastics skill test, so it is one. I could get you page cites on what a skill test is, blah blah blah, but you can find those yourself. Your only response to that has been 'nuh uh, I'm right and you're wrong!' You have asserted that you're right many times over, but have failed to create any sort of logical proof. There is no logical proof on this one. It's a matter of interpreting an ambiguous rule. You can restate that you think it's totally unambiguous as many times as you want, that won't make it true. The crux of your argument has been entirely circular - the RAW is unambiguously in your favor, therefore you win. That's why you have failed to really convince anyone of anything on this thread.

Can I ask a couple clarifying (yet dumb) questions here...

1) According to the RAW, if you have the Athletics Skill Group and a Melee Skill it is extraneous to buy levels in dodge? I think I'm understanding that. 2)How do you all handle the unarmed guy blocking the blade/bat wielding psychos out there?

Living were Shadowrunners usually do, it is...Unbelievable, or breaks the suspense of belief to have someone unarmed.

Really, if you're klutzy enough to lose your weapon alot, buy an implant.


Or ducktape.

Yeah, keep repeating that to yourself and don't be disturbed by funny things like facts that it's called differently (defense test), behaves differenty (no defaulting) and has special modifiers (defense modifiers).
Those are all just there to rob you from your essence-cheap full defence dice.
And the inventors of the MBW should get their head examined anyway...


Before you try to accuse people of selective perception... make sure you aren't a victim first. Or stop ignoring nathanross.

I was asking for an unarmed adept write up with a 4 in Critical Strike. When you hit as hard as a combat axe unarmed, why carry a weapon that could gain you some Lone Star attention and isn't easily hidden

1> Despite Rotbart's continued denial of basic fundamentals of the way the rules are written, yes.

2> Kind of like this. Go to about 6:15.

-Frank

Despite some 'whish-it-were' assumptions by Frank and Larme:

It depends.
If you are contend with the need to bounce arround when under fire, sure. Whether your GM will impose restrictions on that is up to him. (See Fuchs - no Gymnastic Dodge in a car, for example.)
Of course you won't be able to get the cheap extra dice from the Ranged Combat spec of Dodge and will advance the Athletics Group slower than Dodge alone.
On the other hand, if you are a Ninja Adept with Ninjutsu MA advatages and a maxed out exceptional, improved Unarmed Combat and Gymnastics, Gymnastics Dodge + Unarmed Combat is the way to go... especially if going for all those options to increase Unarmed DV.

And by RAW, you are at a disadvantage under Supressive Fire. Whether that Disadvantage is 'No Gymnastics at all, just Dodge' or simply 'Just Gymnastics instead of Dodge+Gymnastics or Dodge+Dodge' is up to your GM. But in the case of the Ninja, that doesn't really matter.

Yeah, frankly unless you are doing it for flavour or really want to spend the PP on something else, there is no point in using a weapon if you are a melee adept. A 98 pound weakling adept (STR 1) can still do 11P damage with -1 AP in Unarmed Combat with Killing Hands, Critical Strike, Penetrating Strike, Bone Density Bio (yes, I know that means he is likely to weigh considerably more than 98 pounds) and a selection of Martial Arts. That is the same as a STR 15 Troll wielding a Combat Axe, and a little more concealable. The only advantage the Troll has is Reach, which admittedly is a hefty 3 dice difference. And manuevers exist to bypass that advantage as well.

I somehow doubt that people are doing handsprings and somersaults around the ground when they gymnastic dodge. Likely they are doing similar actions to the actual dodge skill. Only a fool would do a full sized cartwheel or handspring around to "dodge" bullet fire or a sword... Likely you would see some tucking and rolling, or diving to cover types of activities.

And if you think that people doing standard dodge aren't jumping around a bit to avoid getting shot or clubbed to death, then you must think of dodge as some sort of mystical feat of will that causes the bullets to veer around the target?

Emphasis mine.


Hardly. But it has more to do with footwork and bending than artistic feats like stated for gymnastic dodge.

But considering the RAW states the defenser's roll in full defense for ranged combat as being Reaction + Dodge/Gymnastics(not stated, but implied within the write up of Gymnastics) +/- Modifiers, would not limited mobility be a negative modifier to either skill?

As pointed out, said suggested modifiers are GM fiat.
So they depend on situational judgement: Maybe you can duck into cover just fine sitting in a car - but you won't jump around that well because you still wear safety belts.

I'd say that if you're not doing cartwheels and such, then you are using dodge, not gymnastics, to evade attacks.

eh, you could gymnastically contort yourself in ways that someone who doesn't train in gymnastics would find difficult. rolling yourself from the front seat to the back doesn't seem all that similar to a cartwheel--until you consider the fact that you use most of the same muscles in pretty much the same way for both actions.

Actually, contortionism is not really covered by Gymnastics.
Slipping out of the safety belt without unlocking it would be the realm of Escape Artist. Which is referred to by the Flexibility Adept Power and the Double Jointed Quality, too.

i beg to differ. it doesn't cover contortionism in the sense of tying yourself into a pretzel knot, but it certainly covers flexibility and sureness of motion. while that would certainly be limited by being enclosed in a car and/or strapped into a seatbelt, i don't see that it would be more limited than dodge. to clarify, i'm not talking about using gymnastics to get out of a seatbelt without unbuckling it; i'm talking about avoiding attacks while you're in a car, seatbelt or not (though being strapped into the seatbelt would certainly impose larger modifers than simply being in a car would).

Actually, it's more about the motion thing in SR4 - 'Flexibility' adds to Escape Artist (contortion and manual dexterity).

As Gymnastic Dodge by RAW requires you to be 'flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc', while Dodge does not, it may be more limited in said situation.
Again, it is completly up to the GM what modifiers he applies due to situational restrictions and if he applies them at all.