Exactly. Of course, a Melee Skill (Armed or Unarmed) can also be substituted for the Dodge Skill in the equation.

This is official FAQ

What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?

Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.

So dodge and gymnastics can be in the same test, but it does not fix the insanity. lol

ah, right. stupid errata.

I'm still just not seeing what the problem with allowing two skills and a big pile of Powers and 'Ware to duplicate and eventually outpace a single skill is. I'm pretty much in agreement with Frank about how real samurai need big piles of defense dice. I mean, really, ninja shit like being able to survive a stupid number of bullets being sent their way as well as having the weapon and infiltration skills to consistenly drop 2-3 people in the first couple passes of an ambush is basically their entire reason for existing. The end result of all this is that mages, riggers and Faces can blow 18 bp on Dodge (Ranged) 4(6) and have a chance at survival out of chargen while pure meat combatants like Samurai can blow a ton of points on being better at it than them while still having Athletic abilities and their rank 5 & 6 skill choices available for skills like Automatics and Perception. You guys can keep calling that insanity if you want, but from where I'm standing, it looks more like everyone gets to win for once. Why the heck people are seriously considering overturning the perfectly good applecart 'cuz Rotbart's inventing distinctions is beyond me. Seriously, how'd this hit 7 pages?

Simply performing one cartwheel generally doesn't call for a Test at all, unless it's in difficult circumstances. But yes, the fluff doesn't really support either side.



Probably my fault for bringing it up in the first place. The way the rules read to me agrees with Robert's interpretation, but if it's the general consensus that it's poorly worded (and if there's this much disagreement, that would seem to be the case) then I'm happy with that, I'm not attached to any particular position, just trying to understand the rules. It wouldn't be the first time that an interpretation that seems obvious to me can be chalked up to poor wording. (See Also: initiative & reflex enhancements)

DS

No but you likely have it available to you because you took either the Athletics skill group, or Gymnastics for other reasons.




Because if I do a cartwheel outside of combat... it boosts me... but inside combat it doesn't... yah that makes a whole helluva lot of sense

Sure it improves your cartwheel - but the test is not to measure how good your cartwheel is, rather it's whether you can do it fast enough to evade the attack or not.

DS

i don't see anything in the entry for the synthcardium that says it doesn't apply when there's a time factor.

YAY dragons get tougher

umm pharlap

Horse, ran faster and was more agile purely due to having an oversized heart

Famous in Australia

well, either way. if it applies to one, it applies to the other; if not, it applies to neither.

Exactly... consistency should reign supreme... and saying that I get bonus dice from my sythacardium when doing athletics tests outside of combat but not in it... makes no sense..

What happens if I decide to climb or run in combat? I guess because it's in combat it's a combat test so I don't get Synthacardium bonuses?

If I'm back flipping in combat to avoid machine gun fire, how is that different from doing back flips for other reasons?

Well, do you apply Synthacardium to all Defense tests? I don't give a shit whether Gymnastics is added as a DP modifier or whether it is a Gymnastics test, do you always apply Synthacardium to Defense?

If you do, then I say yes, add it to Gymnastics Dodge. Do not add it because Gymnastics is now a part of the dice pool (even though it is not a Gymnastics test).

that's really faulty logic. if X affects Y, and Z affects X, Z does not necessarily affect Y without the invovlement of X. the synthcard helps you do better gymnastics. doing better gymnastics, in SR, helps you avoid attacks. there's no reason it shouldn't help you do better gymnastics when people are shooting at you.

Thank you.

i accept both cash and credit!

I grant you 15 bonus Build Points for any and all character creation.

A bit late to the party, and slightly off topic, but:


Only half of the Minuet :) The other half (your performance as opposed to your technique) would come from Artisan.

That makes being a good dancer quite expensive, BP/karma wise.

--
wavydavy

I asked in the SR dev chat, synthacardium gets added to gymnastic dodge tests.

I'd add in people with wired reflexes/muscle toner/synthacardium into this "Adepts with specific powers" section.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, ie, if he moves like a blur due to magic, or tech, he's still a blur. (or she.)

Total nitpicking, but it doesn't have the same wording as Wired Reflexes. It explicitly states Move-by-Wire is compatible with Reaction Enhancers.

Nice. At least it's cleared up. I mean, i had no problems handwaving it and saying it counted anyway, but some folks feel better if it's actually confirmed that's how something works.

As much as I am against the outcome, it is nice to see it resolved. This came up slightly earlier in the thread, but I wanted to clarify:

The absolute max Dodge pool is (Full Defense, Gymnastics Dodge):

Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics + (Boatload of +DP from ware, etc.)

When you take Gymnastics Dodge, you are not taking it in place of Dodge right?

No. You are taking Gymnastics and a Melee Combat skill in place of Dodge.

Then your Full Defense pool is:

Melee: Reaction + Melee + Gymnastics + (Boatload of bonus Dicepool from warez)
Ranged: Reaction + Gymnastics + (Boatload of bonus Dicepool from warez)

You know, exactly like we've been saying the entire time. Which really should not excite or surprise anyone, because that's exactly what the rulebook says, what the FAQ says, what the freelancers have said, and what the Developers say. It's really not up for contention, and never has been. It's a really extremely explicit (if somewhat complex) portion of the rules.

-Frank

Thanks for dancing on my grave Frank.

It still doesn't explicitly.

The FAQ, in fact, does not mention bonus dice at all with this issue, only skills and attributes.

What one freelancer said. You made quite the point that you're not part of that crowd anymore.

That's sad, but YAHR.

WMS

Give it up Rotbart! The devs told us, in the dev chat, how they read it. You can read it however you want. But there's no point in arguing whose interpretation is right anymore. We've gone back and forth on it as much as is productive. Either you accept the devs' stated intent, or you don't, and that's that.

Oh, it should be obvious that that's the only fact I agree on.

Like I said: Yet Another House Rule. In addition to the one replacing Gymnastics with the appropriate skill for the occasion.

After all, it's the Dev's stated intent that Mr. Lucky and Bloodzilla are for real, too. They just don't work in my games.

In the interest of continued discussion being worthwhile, can we agree that Rotbart views this as a house rule, while others view it as not a house rule, since it doesn't matter in a huge way?

RE: synthacardium helping in combat: Running, shooting, ducking, backflipping out of the line of fire, and having your adrenaline way, way up because your life is in danger is a serious cardiac workout. An augmented heart should help with that, IMO, and I'm okay with the decision that it adds to gymnastics dodge because you're asking your heart to put out, yet again, to help your body perform a maneuver more complicated than sitting on a couch.

There may be some misconception about what I consider a houserule.

If the devs say it applies to Gymnastic Dodge and Falling Damage Resistance, it is so.
In that case, there is my simple houserule: Not in my game.

No, you were pretty clear, guy. Not in your game means you houseruled the official ruling to not be the case anymore in your games. That was really concise in your previous post(s).

Rotbart: ah, got it. If it works for you, I'm happy for you

I'm amazed how smart a synthacardium can be, to actually know the diffrence between cartwheeling and cartwheeling while trying to dodge attacks. Isn't that like totally great?

It's not nice to mock guys. That said, I have no choice but to accept what is RAW and move on to what a good house rule would be.

Here's my idea (since I'm tired of people skimping on Perception and Dodge):

Defense test: Reaction + Dodge
Full Defense: Reaction + Dodge + Dodge

IE, same dodge rules for ranged as for melee. You can also take Gymnastics Dodge for Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics (like melee)

I think this is cool, as I want a greater dodge pool for elite sammys. This encourages Combat players to take both Dodge and Gymnastics (which they would take anyways), prolongs fights among equals, limits called shot brokenness, limits shooting DP inflation, and hopefully makes the game more fun.

(I just totally got a Shaolin Soccer image there of everyone break dance fighting when combat breaks out)

Tell me if you think this is too many dice? (also, you can have your Synthacardium to Gym. Dodge pool)

As already pointed out, it may simply not help in the latter case as what's needed isn't overall performance, but trained reflexes/routine/timing... which the Synthacardium can't provide, but Reflex Recorders can.


Didn't try that, but it makes the game a bit easier to learn.

Personally, I'm working with the houserule that if you are in a melee situation with somebody and he tries to shoot you, additionally to the usual rules, you defend like against a melee attack.

That statement is based on your own experience in dodging bullets while under the influence of either Synthacardium, or Reflex Recorders?

Didn't think so

That statement is based on the fact that the latter actually increases your proficiency as per skill table, while the other doesn't.

This is why i think the rule makes perfect sense. Exactly why, in fact.

But, hell, honestly, theres nothing wrong with house rules. We have our own(no Availability limit at chargen, forex...with the unspoken agreement of 'not breaking the spirit of this housrule...ie, no Panther Cannons and Citymasters on your gang member.' ) I don't agree with Rotbart's houserule/other people's house rules all the time, but if it works in their games and acutally enhances fun(the most important part of any tabletop game, far and beyond any kind of medical/historical accuracy), more power to 'em. I know some folks who don't agree with our table's houserules.

But the other makes you move faster. Proficiency is nice and shiney, but a proficient slowpoke is more likely to get hurt than a fast newb. Sometimes.

Oh come the fuck on. NO ONE here, and I mean NO ONE, has actual experience in professional crime and/or dodging bullets. We are making logical extrapolations about how we think things should be based on what we see in movies and how we understand the physics of the situation. I'm pretty sure dodging in real life is more inaccuracy on the shooter's part than conscious action on the defenders. In this game, we play completely unrealistic characters capable of doing things you only see in movies. Get off your high horse and understand your place.

As for synthacardium: it is a heart augmentation, enabling a much better pumping of blood throughout the body. Now realistically, I'd expect this to affect fatigue and tests like long distance running that require a very high lactate threshold. Just about everything in the Athletic group, gymnastics included, rely on the body's anaerobic capacity, and only it's aerobic capacity after about 30 seconds. If you want to try and be realistic with Shadowrun, you may as well shoot yourself, cause it's not gonna happen. Me and Rotbart have been arguing A) over what is the best for game balance, and B) what the text is actually saying. Since my conclusions from reading the text have already been proven wrong by the devs, any argument I would like to make can only be made as to what is the best houserule. You've all won the argument, be happy, but know your place.

I'm sorry Nathan, but nobody would ever get shot if you did that. Maybe you want that. But I can't help but chuckle at how every single samurai of any reasonable accomplishment would be dodging bullets like Neo. Defense doesn't represent the ability to see bullets coming and get out of the way. It represents "Incoming fire! MOVE!" You'd be tipping the balance EVEN MORE in favor of defenders, while I think RL would point the opposite. It is usually easier to shoot someone than it is to dodge a bullet. In that regard SR4 is already very kind to targets. I really think your game would become whiff city if you tried this house rule. I understand you want more dodging, but I think it would be way too much.

I think sammies are dodgy enough if they just trick out gymnastics. They become insanely hard to hit on full defense, and that's fair -- they can usually survive getting shot at (unless there is a large group targeting them) but they trade off not being able to do anything for a whole action phase.

Actually several posters on this board have shown experience in either warfare or pro crime.




Ok on the realistic bullet dodge, it is ased on the part of a second between the shooter lining up the shot and the end of the trigger squeeze, sudden move to foul aim.



my place? wow that is insulting.

I haven't taken the time to make out the average dice pool or anything, and that is partly why I'm running it up the flagpole. I'd personally like to make Gymnastics a more rare skill, and perhaps this would only work if it was. Also, sure, on the high end this gets absurd (especially with Synthacardium, Enhanced Articulation, and Superthyroid), but for some reason ever since seeing Ghost in the Shell: The Movie again, I've begun believing in Gymanstic Dodge.


Dodging bullets? I understand that there are a few if not a decent number of former or current military personnel posting on DS, and while I am not familiar with any one affiliated with crime of the sort shadowrun deals with, I feel it is safe to say that no one on the boards has dodged a bullet that was really coming for them. Especially on a regular basis.


And how do you have time to do a cartwheel in that time? I'm confused.


This was particularly aimed at malicant, but if you are taking offense to it, I guess I must explain myself. I consider us all equals on this board (even the mods, sometimes), and I find it insulting when someone mocks someone else with as little verifiability as the post being mocked. If I ever get too uppity or make a stupid claim I expect someone to smack me down for it as well. We are all on the same level here, I am not above you, and you are not above me. That is what I mean.

In my experince only hard core combat characters and the B&E crew go for gymnastics, karl kombatmage is totally okay flipping out with Dodge alone, as is the rigger, as neither of them want unarmed combat or to climb walls and shit. (That and an effective gymnastics character is 8-14 BP per defensive point, wereas dodge is 4. Many people can find other things to do with those BP.)

So I tend to get both dodge characters and gymnastics in the team - why do people neglect dodge in your experince Nathanross?

*looks at his criminal record* well I am reformed now, so you could say I used to do that kind of thing. And while I never dodged a bullet (never had anyone fire at me) there was a guy with a crossbow once. Although my example does not support gymnastics. (I dropped behind an upturned table didge skill in SR)



You don't, but you do have time to begin a flipping leap, hoping that enough of your movement occurs before the round (or bolt) is fired, such that they are now aiming at where you used to be (you hope)



ok, so poorly worded then, coolies. (it sounded like you were placing us below you)

I can name at least four members of the Dumpshock community that I know for a fact are, or have been involved in professional crime. I can surmise from the posts of several others that they might have had some involvement in the same.

I'm not a moderator, but I think it's pretty obvious y'all need to chill for a moment before this gets outta hand.

Nathanross: the gear that provides silly, silly bonuses to Dodge would be Move-By-Wire. You want to see someone pull off all kinds of silly, give him something that gives him +2 to Reaction and +1 to Dodge (yeah, the skill itself). Combined with a reflex recorder, Dodge 9 is easily doable with the MBW2 system.

My whole group is almost all very experienced min-maxers (with the exception of a Troll Hacker who rides around in a DHL van with his weiner dog Fang). I just want people spreading out BP a bit more, you know? Is it too much to ask to not have 16DP to shoot people in the face and 3IPs?


Yay, cover! Anyways, I do my best not to look down on people. I believe that myself and Rotbart have brought up decent points and despite the fact that our conclusion was wrong, there is no need to throw out all the points. Anyways, sorry for my conduct.

I dunno, for all my defense of GM fiat, it seems to me like "You guys are playing your characters wrong! I'm going to change the system and make you suck more!" is kinda not cool. Before play, sure, mod the system however you want. But doing it to nerf powerful characters sounds a little like unfriendly, adversarial GMing to me. Remember, the GM is god, you control the universe, you don't need to nerf the players to totally give them a spanking whenever the hell you want

You don't need 16 DP to shoot people. You need 3-4 fairly decent mooks with automatic weapons. For instance: Each has cybereyes to negate vision mods, muscle replacement 2, wires 2. 4 automatics, 6 agility = 12 dice. Ares Alphas with GV3 and shock pads. Firing wide full bursts. 9 dice, 3 hits on average. Mr. 20 full defense gets a -9 penalty for 11 dice, or 3 2/3 hits on average. Already he's in trouble. Now mook 2 shoots, and Mr. 20 full defense is at 10. Then he's at 9... You see where I'm going?

Unless you're talking about prime runners, the bad guys should never match the PCs (unless you're in a street level campagin or your players aren't munchkins of course). Your munchkin players represent some of the best; people of their breed are rare. But mooks are not all screwed! They have a lot of advantages. The first one is numbers - 10 guys with ARs will kill literally anyone unless that person uses full defense and runs like hell to safety before they can all shoot. The second one is legal access to dangerous hardware - heavy vehicles, drones, air support, machineguns, and all manner of nastiness that the players wouldn't normally be ballsy enough to carry around on a job. The third one is generally the home turf advantage. They control the chokepoints, the security doors, the automated turrets, the lights, the electrified floors, etc...