No, they make you run faster. While running away is usually a very good way of defending yourself, it's not the issue here.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to "nerf" anyone. My problem with Gymnastics Dodge (or at least the way my group uses it) is the same as my problem with dump stats in general: they are [usually] not doing it for any in character reason and solely for higher primary Attributes. The way the rules are, any sammy or bio-adept is already going to be taking athletics group because they need to run/jump/climb. Now they no longer need Dodge, because they are getting Athletics 3-4 +1 for Enhanced Articulation and +2 (I think it is limited to 2 at char gen) from synthacardium. Not to mention they are combat monsters with 6-7 in Reaction/Agility. So now they are rolling like 12 die to Dodge with Gymnastics, or 10 with Dodge. Why should they spend precious BP for a skill who's objective can be accomplished by another skill with a higher DP and more uses (except absurd melee dodge pools)?

Please do not take this as me restarting the debate on whether this is RAW or not, and if you want, just ignore me, we have gone on along these same lines for quite a few pages, and I do not want to beat a dead horse. Also, I guess this can be attributed to how I think things should be in SR, and may not be how everyone views the game.

There's nothing wrong with house ruling stuff so the game is more fun for your group.

Logic only works until the moment where augmentations come into play. We can assume the Synthacardium increases your physical performance. We cannot say that that increase will not help you in getting out of harms way. I might, it might not, noone has any experience with that.

I was not trying to be on any high horses here, I don't even care what dicepools the Synthacardium augments, or how unrealalistics the concept of dodging bullets is. I just felt that a statement like


is plain wrong and asked for a snappy comment.

Bottomline: I understand my place well. If anyone tries to justify any houserule involved something that does not exist in RL with RL logic I will comment on it in a jerk-like manner. It's in my nature.

Unfortunatly you failed to provide any evidence to support that claim, so it's pretty much down to the 'snappy' part.

In fact, even your definition of 'fast' and 'slow' is off by SR4 standards, as the relevant thing is reaction in that case.

Wrong not as in "your claim is wrong" but as in "you are not able to know that". Minor difference.

Also, if you defend yourself, your trained reflexes order your body to move. That is the muscles job. And muscles need fuel, which is delivered via blood, which your heart pumps through your body. And this is where the Synthacardium comes into play. So yeah, to exclude performance from defense is wrong, too.

It's so frustrating to explain your thought in a language you're not really good at.

As pointed out, said claim is derived from skill description and distinction from bonus dice to augmented skills.
My ability to judge defense patterns isn't needed for that, but as far as I'm concerned, it's about minimal necessary movement at the right time - short: efficiency.

So it technically should enhance parry and melee attacks as well. And Dodge. And Diving. And whole lot of other skills.
The thing is - it doesn't, which has nothing to do with it being 'smart'.

well, seems now its going away from if it makes sense or not, to a bit of a discussion of house ruling in general and the usefulness of skills, and a little bit of minmaxing.

Now, i take the poise, as mentioned, if it makes it more fun at your table, go for it. But that's the whole table, consisting of other players and a GM. As a GM, i listen to my players. If all of them are unhappy with a rule(and i mean genuinely unhappy, not just whining to get some extra points), then i will probably work to change it. If I dont like a rule but all my players do..then i probably will either A. Keep it or B. Work out a compromise. A game is nothing without all of its players, and if they leave the table because they don't like how i GM, well, then i don't have agame. a GM is not a position to grab a bunch of power and lead your players around by the nose, IMO. I'm not saying anyone does that; but i'm saying that the players should have SOME say in things. Maybe we just run our table weird, though.

Ok, to go off on a small tangent, but to try to make a point(again, im not trying to rain on anyone's table with their houserule choices or call them bad choices. Im just mentioning a few other things.)

Anyhow, there are plenty of skills that don't get taken 'as often' with certain characters. In the Dodge example, plenty of folks DO take dodge instead. In fact, the only players i see using the gymnastics dodge(the one question of being unbalanced with the Synthacardium), are the combat characters, and then, they are usually pretty specialized combat characters. I know they are popular, but honestly, i see plenty of other characters get played too. As said, they are already paying double for the gymnastics dodge. Granted, yes, many of them already take the skill. But...they are still buying up two skills where someone mainly non combative will only buy one. The arguments presented is that 'Dodge is Useless'. Becuase only non-combattive(id say making up a good portion of the runner population.) And that adding Synthacardium to the dice rolls makes Dodge more useless, because combative characters can get 1-3 extra dice on a dodge roll. (which is like, less than a hit to a hit on average?)

Take the Firearms Group. For those who want to go higher than 4, they of course split the group. Now, in my experience(might be different for you guys), Pistols wins out as 'Most Popular' by far. If you're only taking one gun skill, and don't have any character specific gear in mind, then you probably go with the reliable, concealable, Pistol. Next in line i see Automatics. Automatics includes Machine Pistols(when you need some extra punch with similar concealability), SMGs(the weapon of choice for many who want the bigger firepower without being big. Still conealable, upgradable with stuff like gas vents, inexpensive so easy to ditch if need be, and able to throw out BF and FA even for supressive fire), and Assault Rifles(the general weapon of choice for those big gun types. These folks might have heavy weapons as well, but the AR would probably be the choice before an LMG if you're in a sensitive area). Anyhow, in alot of gunbunny/combat types, Automatics seems to be choice number 2 due to the amount of variety.

Now we get to Longarms, which includes shotguns and rifles. Now, Shotguns are always nice. They have choke, they can fire a variety of ammo and pack quite a punch. Inexpensive generally as well, gangers might be seen with these or just someone looking to make an impression...seeing a big ol' double barrel pointed at you is quite threatening. And Rifles pack big punch...hunting rifles are tough and can be purchased rather easily with just a decent fake license and sniper rifles are some of the most powerful weapons before the big stuff. But yet I don't see Longarms taken as often. Again gangers, yeah, and specialized assassin/snipers/hunters do, but for the 'general combat guy', if there is one Firearms skill that has to be stripped out(or taken at a low rating), it's Longarms. Why is that?

While they indeed pack a punch, and shotguns/sport rifles are easy to come by, and can be silenced/supressed...they folks think you can leave behind. If you have 44 points left, and you want to make a Really Awesome Gunbunny...they can take Firearms Group 4, OR Pistols and Automatics at 5(+2) each. Oh, again, i see them taken...but if i had to say it, Longarms seems to be alot more 'character specific' than 'general purpose'. (There seems to be bunches of skills that any takes...Perception, for instance, but some are much more character specific, like Locksmith.) Most folks playing combat/gunbunnies aren't as sad leaving the poor Longarms behind. They'd rather have the combination of concealability, ease of tracking down, upgradability, and power/number of weapons usable by taking Pistols and Automatics.

but should we start saying the Smartlink no longer works on Automatics just to get people to start taking Longarms more? Now, again, in your games, perhaps the Longarms ARE popular. You could always take out 'Longarms' with 'The Unpopular Choice'.

What about Biotech? Should we say the Cerebral Booster works only on Surgery and not First Aid because people like to take First Aid but not Surgery?

Perception? Should we say that the eye and ear mods don't work because no one takes specializations of 'Scent' or 'Taste' when it comes to Perception? No one takes Lockpicking. Should you make ALL of the locks traditional and take out the autopickers? Palming isn't as popular as Infiltration surely. Is it right to say that stuff that gives an Infiltration bonus no longer works but instead it gives a bonus to Palming?

See, im not trying to be a pain in the ass, but by saying ''not enough people take this skill so for the sake of game balance we want to nerf the skill they DO take'' sort of sounds like this to me. You guys are probably meaning something else, but at first listen, you might understand why it sort of sounds like this.

Apples and oranges: None of said skills can really replace the other to a degree that you can safely skip on it - and be rewarded for it.

Weapons skills are a very close comparison, its much more efficent for a mage just to take automatics rather than any of the weapon groups.

Plus you're not rewarded for taking gymnastics, you're rewarded not taking it. It's cheaper. What gymnastics is is a boost for combat centric characters.

Yet, he will fail when using anything that is not covered by it... so, where's the similar disadvantage for not taking Dodge going the Gymnastics route?

Of course you are rewarded by skipping Dodge.

Dodge costs 4 BP, athletics + unarmed combat costs 14 BP. Karl Combat Mage without augs spends way less points on dodge for the same defensive pools. I'm not sure what the reward is?

As for automatics vs weapon pools, vary rarely do you not get to choose your weapon (bizarre circumstances that don;t hapen very often aside). You can definately safely skip taking longarms and pistols if you have automatics, and for the privledge you save 6 BP - or gain two spells if you are Karl Combatmage.

Gymnastics is 4 BP and need anyway, as is Unarmed - otherwise, one will miss those skills in certain situations. So skipping on Dodge saves those 4 BP if Gymnastic Dodge doesn't have any drawbacks at all.

No, you can skip on it, but not safely. It kinda like Parachuting.
The apologists of Gymnastic Dodge claim that it's a safe replacement for every occasion.

Ok, so Joe Samurai takes:

Blades 4
Athletics Group 2

which we wanted to do anyway. He doesn't need Dodge, that's correct. It's still not useless, though, because..

Karl Kombatmage:

Spellcasting 4
Dodge 2

Just replace it. In fact, when you think about it...Karl Kombatmage is the one saving points here. Karl Kombatmage ONLY has to take Dodge. Sure, Joe Samurai was planning on taking Athletics Group anyway. But he still, for those two skills i listed paid 36 points(!) Which is alot. Yes, again, sure, he was planning on taking it anyway. But its still alot of points. Why not let them get the benefit?

Again, im the one preaching about whatevers fun in a game, but im trying to wrap my head about what's fun about making a skill useless. Dodge is not useless because gymnastics dodge exists. As everyone's been saying, MANY other types take dodge. It's just not as necessary for ONE archetype. ONE. There are tons of skills that are more useful for some archetypes than others. There are some skills(again, Perception) that are useful for everyone. Dodge, again, is useful for MANY types. Just because a combat type gets a couple of extra dice for a skill they took doesn't make it broken. To me, it's almost like saying ''Ok, you're a combat type? the bone lacing doesn't give you extra unarmed damage. Because you were going to take it anyway. But the hacker that took it? Sure, you get the dice.'' What's so wrong about one skill being more useful for certain types than others? Hacking is certainly more useful for, well, a hacker than it is a back to nature shaman. And Dodge is more useful for a non combat type.

And remember, it's been pointed out that it still might be a good idea to eventually invest in a couple points of Dodge with a sam; the aformentioned very tight squeeze comes to mind. They just don't need it as much.

Also: Why does it matter if:

Joe Sam spends 32 BP on Blades 4 and Dodge 4
Joe Sam spends 32 BP on Blades 4 and Gymnastics 4

I just again, dont see the 'balance' or 'fun' in making Joe Sam take Blades, Gymnastics, AND Dodge when the non combative guy who can melt your brain from 50 paces can get away with only taking Dodge.

It just happens to be that said guy can't deliver a decent punch nor even jump good enough when he needs to.
So there is no 'getting away' for him - he simply can't do those things properly...

Oh, and of course he paid for the whole brain melting things, too.

And if said "non combative guy" plans to use a weapon focus he'll probably get a melee skill anyway.

I don't think there's any support for that in the RAW, it's pure extrapolation. In fact, as far as I can tell, gymnastics dodge is not about making sure you're in the wrong place at the wrong time at all -- that's Dodge. Dodge is like "bam! gonna move a few steps this way and mess up your aim! Hah!" Gymnastics is more like flipping out so that you move in a really fast intricate pattern to mess up someone's aim. Someone is about to shoot you, so you launch into a back handspring, land on your hands, do one of those breakdance gyroscope things, and then leap into a spring roll off in an unpredictable direction. That's how I envision gymnastics dodge. It too is pure extrapolation. But I think it's much more consistent with the idea of gymnastically dodging than your account. Would people dodge that way in real life? I have no idea. But would they do that in Shadowrun? You bet your ass.



Athletics can coherently be called those things that involve many or most of the body's major muscle groups, espeically doing both explosive work and requiring endurance. That fits for everything you'd use Athletics for, including gymnastics. These are all things that would benefit from increased blood flow from a souped up heart. But it doesn't fit for melee parry or dodge, which is essentially pure reflexes with minimal effort invested. Similar with driving. Very little explosive muscle work or possible fatigue there... You're right that a heart probably can't boost your twitch reflexes, but I don't think you have any basis for saying that a heart boosts you when doing a flip as part of a gymnastics test, but not when doing a flip as part of a defense test. You might be telling us that people don't do flips when doing gymnastics dodge, but I don't think that unsupported assertion even passes the giggle test.

Oh, he totally did pay for the brain melting thing. I'm not denying that. Magic can be costly.

But the Sam also paid for the ability to shoot well and slice people up well/punch people well/etc.

I mean, take 110 BPs.

Karl Kombatmage picks up Conjuring Group 3, Spellcasting 5, Counterspelling 4(the omission of Ritual Sorcery happens alot here, speaking of omitting skills, i noticed...picked up later typically) for 66 BP. Now, he's a combat mage. He actually wants to have a melee skill. He takes Blades 3(12 BP) and Pistols 2(8 BP), for 20, and taking it up to 86. After the obligatory Perception 2(8 BP, 94 spent), and Etiquette 1(4 BP, 98 spent, he's not a big talker) he has a choice. He's got 12 BPs left.

Now, Karl Kombatmage wants to be somewhat athletic. He doesn't want to be a couch potato mage. So he wants to take Athletics Group 1. But wait, in this game, gymnastics dodge is useless. Karl's got a 4 body, which is ok for soaking and wearing armor...but he really wants to get out of the way. But since gymnastics is useless in this game...he might as well take the Dodge so he can survive a bit better. I guess Karl can't be athletic because of this houserule. Well, he can, but he will sacrifice getting out of the way.

Just saying this houserule can end up hurting more than it helps, like in cases like this. Karl isn't trying to be some horrid munchkin here. He just wanted his character athletic. But he didn't want to give up his ability to at least try to get out of the way of some damage. I don't think that's a big sin.

In the case of Joe Sam, replace the 3 magical skills with Firearms 4, Blades 4 and Unarmed Combat 3. Instead of spells and magic, his BPs go to some Edge and Resources. He too isn't trying to be some kind of munchkin supreme. He's just trying to survive, and has a second outlet for it(Gymnastics Dodge). It's just killing two birds with one stone. It's not an evil thing to do.

Now, Fred the Face and Helen the Hacker don't really have any melee skills. Their bulk points were spend on Influence, Elecronics, Cracking, and the like. They each have a firearms skill of a couple points...but to them, sure, Dodge is much better. They need their points for their trade skills and really can't afford(and don't see their characters with) a melee skill. if anything, Fred and Helen are the ones 'saving BP'. Lets say for a minute Dodge as it was didn't exist...and Fred and Helen were *forced* to take a Melee skill and Gymnastics if they wanted to dodge. Is that fair to them? So how is it fair if others are forced to take Dodge?

Again, not trying to be mean or condencending or anything, or try to talk down on everyone, im just trying to spell things out how I'm looking at them at the moment.

It was Diving, not Driving. And Melee Attack.

I'm already thrilled to hear the reason why a Synthacardium applies to Swimming, but not to Diving.
Hint: There's only one reason: Because the rules say so.

That means just he can swim, jump, climb and run better.
I can totally see how he would never take that skillgroup if he has Dodge.


If there are situations where he'll suffer for not having Dodge... sure.

That's the thing about not having certain skills because you can't afford them - a trade-off.
Where's the direct trade-off in just having Gymnastic Dodge, not Dodge, exactly?


So they won't be throwing punches that well and will suffer for that fact when it comes to it.

Oops. Well, I still stand by my statement! Melee attacks too -- they might require explosive muscle power (unless they're monowhip attacks or shock baton attacks) but they don't require the same full body muscle use of athletics, or the same kind of endurance as athletics.

To borrow some arguments from this very thread: If you spend the same time throwing punches and launching kicks and jump kicks as you do cartwheeling around, wouldn't they be the same sort of explosive muscle power and receive the same bonus from synthacardium?

It's not as if you only use the arms in melee.

BPs are limited. He wants to run, climb, and swim. But he doesn't have enough left for both. He would rather stay alive, so he takes Dodge.



You said it in your first sentence here. When there are situations you can't use gymnastics. And they will come up. You get a little more leeway with Dodge...sure, you can't expect to dodge if you're chained to a wall but you can use it in a bit more of a cramped area than you can Gymnastics. You might take some -'s to the dodge skill, but the Gymnastics skill might not be usable AT ALL. There IS a trade.



And Joe Samurai won't be hacking and might suffer for it if their hacker is indisposed. Karl Kombatmage won't be negotating for the bargain if the face is indisposed. No one can have every skill, and im not saying they should. Im just trying to grasp how Gymnastics makes Dodge obsolete and is unabalanced when at least half(if not more) of the runners i see are NOT combat specialized and end up taking Dodge, with that small number who decide to forego things like magic and hacking(honestly, the REAL powers...why shoot someone when you can hack their investments, rip them to shreds, give them a police record and a criminal SIN? A hacker can do that with a couple of skills, some programs and a commlink), giving the mundanes a LITTLE, TINY, NOT unbalancing extra 'edge' (no pun intended ) when it comes to a skillset. Funny enough, but at our tables and other tables ive played at, ive never head a non combat type complaining or even mentioning the fact that the melee(not even combat, MELEE) guys got the skill.

EDIT: Ah well. As i said earlier, just seems like a think of agreeing to disagree. Im not saying the way you run your games is wrong, its just not something that makes too much sense to me in my own games. No harm, no foul.

Yes, there are two skills for full defense. While I don´t see the problem with that, I´d still be interested to know why the "better" one is supposed to bite the dust. From the fluff angle, I´m not particulary fond of "small, super efficient dodge movements" in shoot-outs. The larger movements modelled by gymnastics seem to do more for not being hit.

Your only answer is rotfl? Way to trap me in your net of logic there buddy.

Well, the claim that a martial art is less strenuous than, say, a dance or floor exercises, is a thing from the funny farm - so there's nothing left than laughing.

But that doesn't really matter - as I pointed out, a Synthacardium applies for Swimming, but not for Diving. Which makes no sense at all, but those are the rules.

Yeah. I'm sure all those boxers and MMA fighters aren't really sweating in later rounds of fights, they're just getting spritzed by giant squirt bottles built into the arenas or something, right? And no one has ever "gassed out" or just run out of steam and lost because their opponent had greater endurance than them (perhaps by training in high altitudes, as many of them do), of course. And those guys don't really train that hard, do they, alongside (and sometimes exceeding) other professional athletes that use the same exercises.

And, of course, everyone knows fitness an endurance aren't important to military or law enforcement types, for similar reasons. Pfft. How many muscles does it take to work a trigger finger, anyways?!

Certainly a long fight is just as strenuous as any workout. But few if any fights in SR last that long. You could just knock someone out in one punch, and it wouldn't make that much sense for synthacardium to help you with that.

Regardless, it's true that the way synthacardium works is a bit unrealistic. But that doesn't really show that it shouldn't apply to gymnastics defense. The substance of my argument was that if you do a backflip for no reason and it helps, it should apply when you're doing a backflip to make yourself harder to target by ranged attackers. The argument that you don't do backflips to dodge bullets when doing gymnastics dodge is silly. Gymnastics dodge might not be that realistic, but that points towards a house rule that outright deletes it from the game, not an arbitrary decision that synthacardium doesn't apply.

Deciding whether or not a synthacardium apllies to defense tests is as arbitrary as deciding it only applies to athletics tests, and not dodge tests, melee or dive tests.

It's a rules call, made by the devs. Realism doesn't really play a part, it's about game balance and mechanics.

I'm not going to isolate any given post, but for all those people posting about synthcardium and gymnastics dodging: By your logic why doesn't synthecardium work for all combat tests then? Why does it only help you get out of the way of incoming bullets in combat, and not beating some ass?

Sure, I know the Dev's have spoken. And sure, I can see how they made the call they made. Its a metagame thing more than a sense thing. Bog knows in my time I've done the cheesetastic character who's collection of gear/cyberware was all about what dice bonuses I got, and not why or how it supposedly worked.

See, I can provide the logical arguement for why one cartwheel is bonused and one is not ( you aren't being graded on technique in combat, only on wether or not you got out of the way. Not being fatigued/jittery from an enhanced heart helps your cartwheels be extra cartwheely, but not necessarily any faster/harder to hit. That's a reflexes and reaction times, and thus falls under the purview of reaction enhancers). What I don't see is why, if extra endurance/heart power is so valuable in combat that it lets you dodge bullets better it doesn't help you in other ways? All a synthecardium does is let me cartwheel better in fights?

Since you've already won the metagame portion (with the Devs making the logical call from a rules aspect), please indulge me on the 'in game' portion and explain how this works. After all, that's all that's left to talk about....

I mark this down as another case of "it's a dev call. You can make up logical explanations for and against it afterwards, they did not cause the call to be made one way or the other."

Did I claim otherwise?

Like I said, I can see the metagame reasons for the call being made. I can also see equally valid metagame reasons for it not to be made, but thats not how they went, and probably for the better.

I'd just like to look at the logic of the game world without regard to rules and dev calls and other metagame thinking, particularly in regards to the occasionally smug assertions that it is more consistent for an improved heart to help cartwheels in combat if it helps outside of combat.

For the record: Yes, your cartwheels in combat are still improved, provided you aren't being judged on your ability not to get shot doing them.

The counter arguement, again: If it helps dodge bullets for all the reasons posted in the last several pages, why doesn't it help in other physical aspects of combat as well?


There is no valid arguement I can see aside from the 'we didn't want one implant to rule them all' metagame reasons, which isn't what I'm asking for.

You have not established that cartwheeling in a fight and out of a fight is different, except one relies more on agility and the other on reaction. That is represented by the fact that defense tests use reaction, not agility -- rather than trying to do the best cartwheel, you're doing the fastest cartwheel. But it's still a cartwheel. It's true that there isn't really a rational explanation for why synthacardium applies to just Athletics and doesn't help at all with other physical activities. But IF synthacardium helps gymnastics, AND tumbling is gymnastics, THEN tumbling to make yourself harder to target in combat is helped by synthacardium.

Actually, I said they were the same. Cartwheeling in combat, while mostly pointless, works identically to cartwheeling out of combat. By rules, the synthecardium helps by adding its rating in dice.

What I established as different was cartwheeling to DODGE, a much narrower segment of 'cartwheeling in combat' as 'cartwheeling in combat' is a much narrower segment of 'just cartwheeling'.

I established the Reaction link as one major difference between the two, and I established a logcial rational for why that is.

What I ALSO did was mention/argue is THAT difference helps establish a reason why synthecardium (linked to endurance and athletics, which off the top of my head none of which are linked to reaction...) would be of reduced (if any) benefit. The criterion being tested are significantly different. From a 'metagame' perspective, it would have been interesting to see Synthecardium being linked to an attribute rather than a single skill group, though I'm sure we'd see problems there as well. Given the Dev's reluctance to alter anything written, no matter how non-sensical it may be, we may never know...

Blah blah blah, like I'm going to read your post carefully before rattling off a response

Here's what I was trying to refer to in your argument though:



It's the difference between cartwheeling for the purpose of doing gymnastics well, and cartwheeling for the purpose of throwing off your opponent's aim. One focuses on technique, the other focuses on speed and... slipperyness? Or something. The point is, what I think you've failed to establish is why that kind of cartwheel is significantly different from a regular one. If a gymnast is in the Olympics practicing the best form he possibly can, how is he using his body in a materially different way when, instead of focusing on form, he's just doing it as quick and messy as he can in an attempt to get out of harm's way? He's using the same muscle groups, the same learned reflexes -- the only difference is that for defense, he doesn't care how pretty it looks, he only cares how fast and effective it is. That different focus, as far as I can see, does not establish any reason why synthacardium would apply differently to the normal cartwheel vs. the defensive cartwheel.

I think what you're really proving is simply that synthacardium doesn't make much sense. Why does it apply to a cartwheel, and not to diving? Why does it apply to jumping, but not to a jump kick? But the end result of that argument isn't showing that synthacardium doesn't make sense solely for helping gymnastics dodge. It doesn't establish a sensible reason why it helps on gymnastics but not gymnastic defense. It just establishes that synthacardium does not make much sense in general. The endpoint of that argument is a house rule making synthacardium more logical, not the conclusion that it ought not help on gymnastic defense tests. That conclusion would be just as arbitrary as the current rules which divide up the skills it helps in an unrealistic manner.

Looking back, I'm now confused as to whether you were actually trying to argue that synthacardium ought not apply to gymnastics defense. But as that's the topic of the thread in general, that's the windmill I'm tilting at

That's exactly what I'm showing. As written it only makes sense from a purely metagame perspective. In game its wonky as hell. It obviously doesn't apply to most of the things it should as an artifact of the skill system (with a few, limited groups) and the decision to limit it's functionality/description to the non-nonsense 'athletics group'.

Obviously, like enhanced articulation, it was designed to keep the combat dice pools relatively small by restricting it to non-combat applications, which then failed due to the useability of Gymnastics (and Athletics skill) to dodge, and rather than retconning (a major sin from what I can tell of the Dev's perspective) or making some arcane and confusing contusion to create the percieved difference between 'athletics tests' and 'defensive tests'... though the language was there, they wisely chose to accept the fact that gymnastics, with help from synthecardium, can now make you better at dodging then... well... dodging.


So: yes, I'm proving that the implant, as implemented, makes very little sense, if any. In the wrong hands it is unreasonably powerful for its cost due to what I believe is an oversight on the part of the designers.



What I WANT however, is for all the people who smugly asserted that it made sense (in the decreasing pie slice cartwheel example) 'in setting' to either go on to explain why, in setting, the synthecardium DOESN'T affect anything outside of cartwheels in combat OR admit that their smugness was misplaced.



Yes I totally overused Obviously, and I obviously (heh) am able to read the minds of the Devs, and I'm being something of an ass for making this demand. What can I say, I'm bored.

I'd hope I'm not in the smug category... it never made sense to me that the Synthacardium didn't help dodge. Or melee combat.

I don't see having a big powerful heart helping me shoot a gun (or even a bow) better... but anything involving an intense workout (cartwheeling away from bullets, swinging a sword, punching a thug, running, etc) all make sense as something a Synthacardium should assist with.

My only response to the wonkyness is meh! The system is abstract as hell. If you bang your head against the wall over every wonky thing, you pretty soon will lack either a head or a wall.

I can't agree that it's unreasonably powerful though. 3 dice is good, but synthacardium is really not that cheap cash wise. And 3 dice is not exactly brokenly overpowered. 3 dice can be totally negated by shotgun rounds or full auto. And it's possible for someone's offense pool to equal or exceed the full defense pool of a souped up gymnastics dodger. If someone on full defense can still be capped right in the head, their full defense doesn't really seem overpowered to me.



I'm not sure who made that argument, but gymnastics flippy dodgy action is highly consistent with the setting, and so is cyberware enhancing that. So it's in keeping with the overall idea that gymnastics dodge ought to exist, and it ought to be cool and powerful and enhanced by cyberware. That's not an argument why it should be enhanced by this ware in particular while other similar activities are not, but it's good enough for me.

One thing you are forgetting: Defensive pools are less commonly penalized than offensive pools.

I don't know where I should be looking an answer to my next point: since Gymnastics Dodge is applied twice, aren't modifiers to the skill applied twice? thats six dice (and the 'cash money value' is far more secondary to the essence impact, which is low. How much secondary depends upon the campaign/GM... contrast to the only other cybernetic way to get additional dodge dice (Move by Wire) and it IS cheap. After all, one can get Reflex recorders for either skill, yeah?)


Outside of Adepts I'm not sure where this meme of 'flippy dodgy' being consistent with the setting came from. That sounds like a Jackie Chan flick, and my shadowrun is normally a bit grimmer than that (like, I dunno: Universal Soldier? Those guys take the bullets like real men (zombies, that is....), not cartwheel around like monkeys (or Yoda!))

My real beef isn't so much that synthecardium adds to gymnastics dodging but there is no comparable implant that applies to ordinary dodging. The alteration to Enhanced Articulation seems to suggest the intent was that this type of bioware wasn't meant to affect combat, yet here is this gaping loophole that allows this one implant of marginal utility to suddenly become this 'uber implant', a must have for any defense pool muncher, which simultaniously provides a very very real coffin to bury the ordinary, but indispensable, Dodge skill in, whereas before I could politely think anyone ignoring Dodge for Gymnastics simply because they had a high melee skill was a playing a bit too much 'optimization' and not enough Character, then shrug and go about my business as is my usual wont.

Don't forget, three extra dice is statistically an extra success, a huge factor in combat. Never mind the times they add edge (with rerolls) or those jaggoffs who roll three out of three hits on dice too often to be normal...

Well, unless you consider full auto fire. Yeah there are a lot of penalties to attack, but many can be largely mitigated with cybereyes. And there's no such thing as a -9 penalty to attack (which can't be negated with recoil comp, that is). You could have the most ridiculous full defense pool, and full auto could make you look like a chump. Especially when there's 4-5 people all shooting at you with full auto...



Haha, no wonder you thought it was ultra broken! Ranged gymnastics dodge is reaction + gymnastics, and melee gymnastics dodge is reaction + (melee skill or dodge) + gymnastics. No matter what, gymnastics is only applied once. Also, I'm pretty sure that applying your bonuses twice never happens in ANY case. Reaction + dodge + dodge (for full defense dodge) is still a single dodge test. It isn't sammiched into two dodge tests added together. Since you only make one test, you add your bonuses once. That's my interpretation of the RAW anyway. The only time bonuses or penalties are applied twice is when you split your dice pool, as in dual fisting.



See Ghost in the Shell. Also William Gibson maybe? But I haven't read any of his stuff. Regardless, the cyberpunk genre is about people with enhancements being totally amazing, and in many cases acrobatic. Cybered people, no less than magical ninjas, can perform superhuman feats of agility, and that something I think is deeply embedded in the system.



Well, loophole isn't the right word. The devs have told us they meant to do it. Loophole implies it's an accidental thing that really isn't supposed to be.

As for Dodge, as this thread has argued again and again (see Frank's posts I think), dodge is not useless.

First, dodge can get a +2 bonus from specialization, where there is no defense specialization of gymnastics.

Second, dodge both adds to ranged full defense and melee regular defense. If you have dodge, you can use it to full effect no matter what attacks you. But gymnastics cannot be used outside of full defense. When attacked in melee, you must roll Reaction + melee skill/dodge for a regular defense test. If you only have gymnastics, you will be rolling Reaction + nothing in melee combat. And on full defense, you will be rolling Reaction + nothing + gymnastics. Kinda sucks. It forces you to buy a melee skill or dodge in addition to gymnastics, greatly increasing the price of gymnastics dodging.

And I don't put much credence in the argument that samurai will always have melee skill no matter what. That's not necessarily true - the system enables people to do pretty well without melee, and a melee skill is not an automatic choice for a sammy. Plus, even if it's generally part of a sammy's sheet, it's not a freebie. They still pay for it. No matter how you look at it, you have to pay more points to be fully defended from attack using gymnastics than you would with just dodge.

Of course, the 'cost is not an issue' dodge monkey may be interested in getting both Dodge and Gymnastics to take advantage of being able to apply Synthcardium, Increased Articulation AND Specialization to their Melee full defense pool, while leaving open their Close Combat skill specializations for Martial Arts and/or a specific weapon type. Add in 3 levels of Improved Ability (Gymnastics) and a few levels of Combat Sense (Improved Ability Dodge is overpriced, thought a Reflex Recorder for Dodge may make sense).

jump
why jump when for just a few bp or xp you can FLY

I'm sure it doesn't need to be repeated that the mage make a hole in a wall and close it behind him (shape metal is a sustained spell!), and summon stunbolts (which are about a million billion times more effective than actually punching someone on the part of karl combat mage), or summon a fricking f6 possession spirit that can give him dodge and unarmed combat and all that stuff - again with the BP he saves from not buying this crap or getting implants. Also, if the mage was intrested in doing the flipping out, he can just pay the points and flip out as hard core as the sammie. most mages take some bioware - you can go synthcardium, a tramua dampner and cybereyes if that is what you want.

To me its a simple black and white trade, physical characters pay (magic OR (essesence AND nuyen)) AND BP and get bigger DPs in their specalisations, while mages/riggers/whatever pay less and spend it elsewhere to do other things.

But its a commitment. If you want that synthcardium for the bigger pool, you are paying essence, and you are committing to big costs wereas the mage just takes dodge and specs range after adventure one and doesn't sweat it for the rest of time.

Also note that the mage can quickly secure dodge 4 + 2 ranged for 16 BP and 2 karma, whereas to get the same DP, the sammie needs to spend 56 BP (or 48+2 karma depending on how you let people spec unarmed combat) + 20k nuyen and 0.4? essessence to get the same defensive pools.

So the sammie pays more out of three pockets and in return gets some other bling. But the mage has 44 BP over the bloody sammie in return for sacking his ability flip out and punch people in the head. I'm sure lots of people would make that trade happily, however the mage can certainly elect to do the same thing as the sammie if he wants to pay for it and his character concept calls for it.. I'm not sure what the issue is.

You can not ask for it as an answer all you want to, but the simple fact is sometimes (very often, in fact), game balance/metagame stuff is the reason game developers make a call. It's kind of their job, y'know?

The incessant "but whyyyyy" for the bulk of a page isn't helping anything.

The Dodge skill is also useful when driving vehicles evasively, whereas Gymnastics Dodge is not really usable in that situation.

Unless you're driving a Robotech mecha

You misunderstand. I'm saying I KNOW Why. Its right there in your post, and in mine to somewhat greater length. We are past the point where the gymnastics Dodgers won the rule call.

This isn't 'Why" at all.


What I want is for the posters who were all smug about 'super hearts make you better at dodging bullets' prior to that call to admit that if that is the case then they should be calling for the Synthecardium to affect other aspects of combat aside from cartwheels OR to retract the posts and admit that it works the way it does for the purely metagame reasons you and I both acknowledge to be true, and nothing else.


Mostly because I'm a dick and the holier than thou attitude of the last few pages of this thread prior to the Dev chat really annoyed me.

To whom are you referring? I was one of the more vocal supporters of the canon Gymnastics Dodge rule, but if your list in any way includes me, then it needs revision. I made no such claim, nor were any of my posts written in anything close to what I consider a smug tone.

Yeah, but your smug is a little closer to my smug, Forty, which breaks most people's smug charts. So it's hard to blame 'em for the mix up.