Satanic Tradition, The devil's in the details... Options

[Neondante]

I am fairly new at GMing shadowrun, and am running a game for some people who are entirely new to the game. I was asking one of the players, who is playing an uncouth, antisocial stealth expert who hates things that he doesn't understand, like metas and the awakened... which makes for an interesting character, as the himself is a magician. When I asked him what magical tradition he followed, he said that he basically worshipped himself, which made me think of Satanism. (Which is different from devil worship, for those who don't know what I'm talking about.) So that made me start to think about the rules for it, and I'm having trouble deciding. First, which of the spirits would they be able to summon. I'm thinking fire, as flame imagery is of course, very often associated with satanism. Beasts also, as kindness to animals is an important part of satanism, and the goat is one of their main symbols. I'm not sure which would be excluded... perhaps water, as the more or less opposite of fire, or man, because Satanists have little respect for people on the whole. (Baaaaaah...) Opinions?

As for drain resistance, I'm leaning towards intuition, as they seem to have a "do what works for you" mentality for magic.

Here's a glimpse of Satanism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

Anyone have experience with running this tradition, or who are members of this tradition irl? (The player had never heard of it, which I'm sure is the only reason he wasn't one... he has identified himself as one since.) Or anyone just want to throw in your 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ?

[Particle_Beam]

The Shadowrun 4 supplemental book "Street Magic" does have that emo-satanism-stuff as tradition in it, or some kind of Black Magic-stuff, something similar anyway. I recommend getting that book, it's worth it.

[Neondante]

Cool, but I'm not sure if I want to shell out the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for just one thing I could wing on my own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Is the book good other then that? And for those who have read it, how do they represent satanism? Do they show it as emo-satanism? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Malicant]

Street Magic is a fine book, although there are some flaws in it (Bloodzilla, anyone?). It sure is worth the buck, if you plan on playing a serious mage. The info on astral space and spirits alone was worth the read for me.

[Angier]

Black Magic is sort of a satanistic influenced tradition. It is rather based on what western civilization perceives as "black magic" than any form of satanistic cultism. It's a proper tradition on it's own while some of those practices attributed to satanistic cultists are rather left-handed. If you need a tradition to represent a satanists approach to magic, the black one should be your first choice.

So it depends... if you want a tradition based on a hedonistic world-view then the black magic tradition is what you need. You get the bias towards spirit pacts and darker mentor spirits and a love for complex rituals. Black mages can pass as hermetic mages as both traditions base on similar fundamental assumptions. A black mage needs a greater amount of charisma whereas a hermetic favors the ability to discern mythos from logos.

But if you need a more mainstream approach on satanism say... conjuring of demons, cursing, enchantment and gory rituals the tradition itself is just another flavour to these themes as they are all covered in some way as warped paths.

[Neondante]

I was thinking more along the lines of Anton Levay satanism. They see satan not as a being or spirit, but as a symbol of independance and individuality, and a rejection of what they percive to be opressive ideologies. Satanists are athiests in fact, although many believe in magic. Ritual magic is a big part of their beliefs, although the rituals are meant to be more like guidelines to be adapted to your personal style, and are often themed towards vengance, lust, or compassion. Someone who engaged in what the media views as satanism, such as ritual sacrafices, abuse of children and the like, would be looked down on by Levay satanists. While they strongly believe in vengence against those who have wronged them, hurting innocents, especially children and animals, is considered very wrong.

Pleasure, love and beauty are all important parts of satanism, which they feel are parts of life and nature that are supressed by religion and society, pleasure as being sinful for example, and beauty for beauty's sake being unprofitable and therefore useless and decadent. Satanists embrace hedonism, seeing pleasure as not a means towards an end, but as an end in of itself.

I'm not a satanist myself, and I fully admit that all this is just bits and pieces laying around my mind that I've read on the internet. But from what I understand, satanism is not devil worship, and is not evil, from my own utilitarian point of view, though your milage may vary.

Edit: and yes, satanism is definately a left handed path.

[mfb]

i've been led to understand that some schools of qabbalic thought view Satan not as the Big Bad, but just as the adversary--like God's district attorney, or a devil's advocate.

[Neondante]

I've heard the same said about Judas, actually.

And Satan literally means adversary.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

I've heard the same said about Judas, actually.

Well yeah, according to at least one of the Gospels, Jesus basically had to tell Judas to go and get the Romans. And I think it's easy enough to read the "one of you dipping the bread right now" bit as a sort of drawing straws for who had to go do it.

[Method]

I just happened to reread the description for the Black Magic tradition in Street Magic last night and I thought it was pretty well done.

[Negalith]

Why a Shaman at all? Why not just a mage? No dogma.

[Negalith]

PS…. He said that he basically was an anti social individualist… You’re the one who put Satanism into it. Anton Levay’s Satanism was NOT a religion of the antisocial, but rather more of a social club for eccentric hedonists into experimentation. Not at all the kind of thing an uncouth, intolerant character would engage in.

[knasser]

The Black Magician tradition is most probably what you want, and to answer your question - yes, Street Magic is enormously wonderful for many other things besides. But some elements of what you say sound less like the Black Magic tradition and more like the Chaos Magician tradition, i.e. the atheism and the belief that Satan is merely an abstract concept or a symbolic representation of a certain concept. "The Adversary" is offered as one of the available Archetypes in Street Magic, and picking this with any of the Western magical traditions (though particularly Qabalism, Black Magic, Traditional or massively heretical the Islamic and Christian Theurge traditions), would make a viable Satanist approach to the character. Having said that, however, the Adversary mentor type in Street Magic is a little more active than your player's character sounds - it is actively rebellious whereas the PC sounds rather passively selfish in that he's only bothered about things that affect him.

Just a note on a different subject, Uncouth is generally regarded (and I would agree) to be a bad idea. It's passable so long as the player has spent at least some points on social skills, but it's a twenty point flaw which is big. It's definitely not free points for players who just want to play an unpleasant character. Make sure the player knows that they have real difficulty in social situations. The character is getting a lot of points for that flaw and they should expect to be hit hard by it some times.

EDIT: I agree with Negalith's comments about Levay's satanism being a sort of club for eccentric hedonists. It's far removed from what I would consider "real" satanism. And whilst I'm fully aware that there have been minimal substantiated examples of "real" satanism (does any group ever really consider itself to be evil which calling yourself a satanist would imply), it's still a valid point that Lavey simply tacked the term satanism on to his philosophy for the impact of the name without it actually corresponding to what most would consider the name to mean. Not that I'm advocating destructive behaviour, but it sounds a sad sort of satanist that spends his time advocating kindness to puppies and children. <300>Puppies? This... is... SHADOWRUN!</300>

[WeaverMount]

What I think the OP is after is "How do I role up Anton Lavey's tradition". If I was to do that while drawing on RAW as heavily as possible, I would do what Lavey did and intentionally turn Christianity on it's head. There are two ways to take this. The Berkeley style ultra PC "Satanists are magi just like one else", I would just do what Knasser says as pick a publish tradition and mentor that fits your views on what you want to play.

I do know that Anton Lavey's satanism is really just some radical humanism philosophy plus stock western ritual magic in the name of Christian deprogramming. But Lavey consciously and willfully decide to take a tradition and explicitly pervert it on all levels in all ways in the name of (ostensibly enlightened) selfishness. In SR terms what does that get you? Twisted Christian Theurgy.

That gives you

Combat: Fire--> Nuclear
Detection: Water --> Acid
Health: Air-->Abomination (no printed foil for air)
Illusion: Earth-->Sludge
Manipulation: Guidance-->Harbinger
Drain: Willpower + Charisma

Charisma is absolutely the right call on the drain stat. The Satanic Bible explicity talks about force of personality being what lets you do magic, especially consider that satanic "lesser magic" is really just being a smooth charmer. This also gives you both the abominations horned-god imagery you are after and harbingers which are so spot on for them.

Harbinger

[ Spoiler ]

Harbinger (Toxic Spirit of Guidance)
Harbingers often appear as emaciated humanoids, ravaged
by stigmata and scars and exuding a feeling of doom. Some embody
their summoner’s personal nightmares, while others are
formless, pitch-black shadows or clouds.
B A R S C I L W EDG ESS M Init IP
F–1 F+4 F+2 F F F F F F F F (Fx2)+2 2
Astral INIT/IP: Fx2, 3
Movement: 10/25
Skills: Arcana, Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling,
Dodge, Intimidation, Perception, Spellcasting, Unarmed
Combat
Powers: Astral Form, Confusion, Divining, Fear, Innate Spell
(Phantasm), Materialization, Sapience, Search, Shadow Cloak
Optional Powers: Accident, Enhanced Senses (Hearing,
Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision, or Smell), Guard,
Magical Guard, Influence

[Malicant]

Yeah, I think Levay has still a long way to go, until that tradition could be considered twisted/toxic. Just doing the opposite, or simply refusing something does not qualify.

Also, a twisted Air spirit would be a Smog spirit, or something like that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Angier]

I'd say black magic is definitely Lavey's tradition.

[WeaverMount]

Black Magic is really really close, but the anti-Christian is really important.

Also ideologically, I'm not sure what else you could ask for in a twisted path besides "consciously and willfully deciding to take a tradition and explicitly pervert it on all levels in all ways in the name of selfishness".

[Drogos]

If it matters, my first thought was toxic as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

And yes, if you ever want run any story line involving magic, I strongly suggest Street Magic. The chapter in the book is woefully lacking in true substance. Yet one more reason I cannot wait for the Hacker release.

[WeaverMount]

t's still a valid point that Lavey simply tacked the term satanism on to his philosophy for the impact of the name without it actually corresponding to what most would consider the name to mean.

Knasser you clay feet are showing, give the Satanic Bible as close a read as the BBB! The point of Satanism is to explicitly to get over being Christian. There is a very good reason for the Satanic pageantry. It's that it is easier for people to invert programming than to throw it out. the CoS isn't ever for every hedonistic humistic Ritual magus. It's for people who need help getting over Christianity specifically Catholicisms. The Satan of the CoS is a philosophical construct derived by embracing god's negation. Calling that Satan isn't just PR stunt

[Neondante]

Knasser you clay feet are showing, give the Satanic Bible as close a read as the BBB! The point of Satanism is to explicitly to get over being Christian. There is a very good reason for the Satanic pageantry. It's that it is easier for people to invert programming than to throw it out. the CoS isn't ever for every hedonistic humistic Ritual magus. It's for people who need help getting over Christianity specifically Catholicisms. The Satan of the CoS is a philosophical construct derived by embracing god's negation. Calling that Satan isn't just PR stunt

What is the BBB? I don't recognise that acronym. Big Black Book?

I think it's also a way to hook people... inagine someone coming across, oh, I don't know, Levay Wicca: "Oh look, another neopagan religion, ho hum." But the name and symbology catches eyes. "What, these people worship satan! That's messed up, I think I'll have a look. Huh, isn't devil worship afterall" (reader either A: ignores it, which is fine, because they don't want the people they think of as sheep anyway, or B: embraces the new philosophy if he's "worthy")

I disagree with the people who are saying that it should be an inverted or corrupted version of christianity... there are elements of that, from what I've read, but they are a very small part of the whole, not the basis for the tradition. While the goat head and the literally inverted pentagram are symbolic, for example, things like upside down crosses and traditional devil and hell imagery seem to be there more for kicks then any actual spiritual meaning, other then perhaps as a frag you (are we allowed to say naughty words here? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) to christianity.

I saw an interesting video on youtube once, a news station was covering a big satanic mass on 06/06/2006. From what the people said, the date didn't have any kind of religious meaning to them, it was just an excuse to party and have a good time... getting willingly caught up in their own joke, so to speak. Basically like most people dressing up and acting spooky on halloween. (Which, I've read, they enjoy doing too, for secular reasons.)

Oh, oy. I've just had a horrible thought. Anyone ever thought of making a Church of the Subgenius tradition? How about an H.R. "Bob" Dobbs Mentor spirit?

Flying Spaghetti monster?

I'm going straight to hell for starting this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)








PASTA SPIRITS!! MUAHAHAHAHA!! 10P DAMAGE FROM HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE!

*cough*

[knasser]

Knasser you clay feet are showing, give the Satanic Bible as close a read as the BBB! The point of Satanism is to explicitly to get over being Christian. There is a very good reason for the Satanic pageantry. It's that it is easier for people to invert programming than to throw it out. the CoS isn't ever for every hedonistic humistic Ritual magus. It's for people who need help getting over Christianity specifically Catholicisms. The Satan of the CoS is a philosophical construct derived by embracing god's negation. Calling that Satan isn't just PR stunt

Heh, well perhaps I have a little clay in my feet. I can't deny that my religion colours my reaction to certain words or concepts, though I do take great pains to ensure what I say can be derived from first principles. I'd like to point out that Lavey's "Satanism" is rooted purely in opposing Christianity whilst Satan is also present in Islam. I would think a "real" Satanism would not be focused on opposing Christianity. Doesn't Satan wish to lead all humanity astray?

But I feel that your argument actually complements mine, rather than opposes it. I said that using the name Satan (actually a description rather than a name) was for the purpose of getting attention. You say that it's to aid people in overcoming Christian programming by using the same source / framework of symbolism. In either case however, we can see that the terminology has been used for the sake of its correspondence with the public rather than because there is a real religious drive toward the person of Satan.

You are right however that I have never read the Satanic "bible" (I avoid such materials). So if I am wrong on the details, then please continue to correct me. But Satanism still exists within the framework of the religion(s) that Lavey feigns to oppose. It seems to me that whilst declaring oneself a Satanist is offensive to Christians, and incredible to Muslims, a true adversary to religion would embrace atheism.

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled, was to convince the World he doesn't exist." - The sole good line from the dull torture that was "The Usual Suspects."

[Rasumichin]

I do know that Anton Lavey's satanism is really just some radical humanism philosophy plus stock western ritual magic in the name of Christian deprogramming. But Lavey consciously and willfully decide to take a tradition and explicitly pervert it on all levels in all ways in the name of (ostensibly enlightened) selfishness. In SR terms what does that get you? Twisted Christian Theurgy.

That gives you

Combat: Fire--> Nuclear
Detection: Water --> Acid
Health: Air-->Abomination (no printed foil for air)
Illusion: Earth-->Sludge
Manipulation: Guidance-->Harbinger
Drain: Willpower + Charisma

Waitwaitwait, don't equate twisted with toxic.
People who follow twisted traditions don't have access to toxic spirits.
They don't have to, they can learn to summon bloodzilla.



On a general notice, one could of course easily design a twisted tradition based upon any satanic belief system, even though there can be plain-vanilla, non-twisted satanic mages as well (or satanic mages who don't practise magic based upon their religion, i never quite got why every non-christian spellcaster is by some players almost automatically asumed to follow a tradition based upon his faith).

However, to qualify for following a twisted path, one has to do much, much worse things than merely turning around some crosses, attending the occassional orgy and blaspheme against christian virtues.
I mean, twisted paths in Street Magic include stuff like fundamentalist terrorism, human sacrifice, cannibalism and whatnot.

Of course, among the twisted there's also necromancers or people who seek absolute power by making pacts with a spirit, so if you want a truly faustian mage, said subset of the twisted path in Street Magic might be the best bet.

[WeaverMount]

1)
Yes most everything Christians "know" about Satan come to them though Islam, but that honestly isn't what it's about. But Lavay's Satan is a philosophical construct arrived at rejecting what he didn't like about the god. It is codified on page one of The Satanic Bible as:

1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic
vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than
those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual
development", has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or
emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all
these years!

that's it that is the central theme of the the practice. What else would you call such a construct besides Satan. It works on a lot of levels.


2)
You got me dead to rights on conflating twisted and toxic paths. The apparent silliness of Satanism makes sense when you really get the point of the inversion, hence my desire to roll it up as twisted path. Also you are right what satanist actually do does really qualify for becoming twisted. Shooting a video of a pre-op tranny loving a pig corpse isn't really evil enough. But what will it take to get 2070 people to think "dude, that heinous drek". That may well qualify for twisted. All this is assuming that Satanism is still around by that time. I personally don't think it will be. I'm in the camp that says Christianity is a fringe cult by 2070, and if there aren't heaps of people who feel they need deprogramming then Satanism is reduced to the silly Halloween party it looks like.

[knasser]

1)
Yes most everything Christians "know" about Satan come to them though Islam, but that honestly isn't what it's about.

Just to clarify, in case there is misunderstanding, I wasn't saying that the common Christian perception of Satan derived from Satan in Islam. In fact, I'd disagree with that statement. Satan in Christianity and Satan in Islam are obviously referring to the same individual, but specifics differ. I have seen an interpretation doing the rounds that Satan rebelled because he loved God too much to submit to man as he was instructed. That is an islamic belief, or rather a Sufi belief which you may or may not consider to be authentically islamic. But most of the perception of Satan in the West comes from the sources of medieval literature and theatre, combined with Paradise Lost by John Milton and popular Christian evangelism that seems to make heavy use of the person of Satan (I think - I'm willing to be corrected). I guess modern horror films are also having their effects on shaping the common perception of Satan.

[Neondante]

I'm shooting more for the "ideal" of satanism, how they view themselves, rather then what the majority of people and especially Christianity sees them as. After all, I doubt someone can pick up any tradition by reading about it in the news. A Christian priest would probably have to study the bible rigorously, or perhaps more rarely, pray in a heartfelt and extremely devoted way and receiving revelations to get his spells... he wouldn't just be able to say "Well, I think Christianity is like this, so I'm going to be able to cast spells now."

A follower of the Satanic tradition would, in my mind, be someone who has read many satanic works, including the Satanic Bible, and probably the wealth of books on the subject that must have come out since the awakening. They would agree with most of the key tenets of satanism (not necessarily all of them... satanism looks down on blind obedience.) and think of themselves as satanists. They wouldn't, therefore, be acting as the majority, or christianity sees as satanism, but as they and the rest of satanism sees as their path.

So they wouldn't be doing obscene acts with pigs, which is against what satanists believe, but may be having ritual sex, for example. They wouldn't pee on a cross as part of a ritual, as they tend to see christianity as valueless. Though, admitedly, some might do it just to piss people off. Inverting god for the sake of power doesn't make much sense when you don't believe in god. Levay satanists ARE atheists, by the way. They may however use christian imagery or music in a ritual, perhaps inverted, or hold a grotto in an old cathedral, as emotion is a major part of the satanic tradition, and the passion shown by those who created the art could well serve to channel your emotions.