Hard Science Skillwires Options

[WeaverMount]

To barrow from Ancient History, I off some
Crunch:

[ Spoiler ]

So there was a good bit of talk about skillwires flying around in the last few days. Rather than necro a ton of threads I'll just post this little diddy from augmentation about the interface between skill wires, commlinks, and activesofts

Cyborg-adaptation of drones includes cybernetic skillwires
(Rating 5)—in practice a specialized move-by-wire system
hardwired to the CCU—which can run normal skillsofts accessed
through the CCU’s onboard commlink.

Formating mine to draw a parallel. So there you have it in black and white. It isn't REQUIRED that you actually slot chips anymore. A Skillwire can run softs stored on a comlink. I guess you could fixate the word onboard, but you would have to start inventing bandwidth issue rules to keep it from working

Fluff:

[ Spoiler ]

At my table we had been imagining active softs as a libary of function calls for muscle movements, almost like an SDK for a robot. When you decide to kick some one while chipping unarmed combat you are literally are doing the 2070 DNI version opening the console on your wires and typing
/root.load("Skinlink:\myBlackComlink\activesofts\Unarmed_4");
/Unarmed_4.moves.roundHouse("redShirt", "face");
And the skill wires system functioned as a computer that could both compile and execute muscle scripts in real time, assuming you had the right libraries loaded. I think many people kinda used this model, but it doesn't explain why you don't wind up actually remembering how to do something you just did and actually building the skill. How do you use technical skills to design something. Also the rating capping max skill rank makes perfect sense, but why can't you have have a bigger library, thus slotting lots of skills at once. Compiling and outputing the scripts would be the computational bottle neck, not the size of your code base. And hardest to swallow, how do you even vaguely begin to chip Social skills. I know that we all have either gone mad, or have gotten very very good at over looking this kind of thing in our beloved game, but this time we can actually use some break throughs in cog-sci for some bonus dice on our sanity check...

I'm not sure how many of you are up on your quantum physics based theories of free will and consciousness. For those of you who aren't the creditable theories revolve around an observer employing the quantum Zeno effect to maintain a neurological template of action (I underlined good search terms if you care to go digging). Dumbing all this down to my level, what is going on is that the transmission of neural impulses happens on such a small scale that quantum wackiness ensues. All of your neurons are firing and not firing Schroedinger style. This means that our brain state / CNS state is basically in a wave state ... until something observes this and collapses the wave form. That something is your free will / Observer. What free will is under this model is selecting from all the possible actions you could take or thoughts you could think (your templates for action) and using quantum Zeno effect to skew the odds so that you actually have that though or do that action, by collapsing the wave for in the way you want and holding it in place long enough for it to happen. In short you can choice to actually do anything you could possibly do. I could stop typing and start doing forms from Kyokushin, or Kajukembo (which I've trained), but not Mia Thai, Wushu, and Krav Maga. Current theory offer templates for action as an explanation of "muscle memory" part of skill. As I'm typing, I'm more or less focusing on a letter and then thinking "do it". If I didn't know how to touch type I couldn't do that because I don't have the temple for how to hit "A" on this keyboard ... Unless I have skillwires.

I in light of these findings I imagine skillwires working by artificially lacing your neural state waveform with the templates for action of some skill. They make it so your are and are not flipping out and cutting heads off, as YOU WILL and executed by observation. Active softs become ROMs of the templates for action that add up to skill. The SW themselves print that potentiality onto the mix of what could be in your CNS. Running this fluff in your games does a couple cool things. This lets the rating of SW be interpreted as the finesse of the system. It can only at so many templates, measured in skill ranks, to the mix. First I know the real reason that SWs have no instructional value is game balance, so I just rolled with it. But while your wires are on you have literally already learned the skill, so you can't learn it again. Neural nets are awesome because they can evolve and adapt. However, just like animals population don't go "Hey you know what would be sweet? evolving myself into a population of animals with massive organ redundancy so we are harder to kill by stabbing!", your CNS wouldn't think "hmmm I bet my capacity to use pistols could get turned off at any moment. Better randomly duplicate those neural pathways". More subtly this is a good explanation of how invention and social skills work, as well as p-fix chips. SW can effect the probability of some occurring to you. I don't know exactly how to change the oil on anything. With this flavor of skill wire, it would occur to me to get all the tools I would need. Even designing a new drone, or a radical mod, the SWs would make design heuristics trees available to you. It would also put best practices at your finger tips. I could really image how such a system could duplicate any skill. And for p-fixing, I used to have to think of it as basically an agent with a persona program rigging a meat-puppet. You have more options under this system. Image how much you would be like some one if you had the habit of focusing on the same things, got interested in the same ideas. This about how similar your body language would be to someone else if you payed attention to your body the same way they do. Mayb sprinkle on a few temples for specific reflexes.

Anywho my 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and food for thought. If I got any of my science wrong, please, tear me a new one. I only barely get this stuff.

[Sir_Psycho]

You know what? I'm going to base a corporate research scientist on you in one of my games. He will have a Neural Impulses (Skillwire Systems) knowledge skill of 6 (+2). A team will be sent on an extraction run to grab him, and when he starts "casually chatting" about his ideas on neural phsiology, any self-respecting samurai, or anyone with a logic below five, will punch him in the throat.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[KCKitsune]

You know what? I'm going to base a corporate research scientist on you in one of my games. He will have a Neural Impulses (Skillwire Systems) skill of 6 (+2). A team will be sent on an extraction run to grab him, and when he starts "casually chatting" about his ideas on neural phsyiology, any self-respecting samurai, or anyone with a logic below five, will punch him in the throat.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Mr. Johnson might not be too pleased when he gets his uber scientist and finds that he is... damaged. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cadmus]

To weavermount.
sir, you rock just for that post.

To the rest of dumpshock.
The moment! quantum physics is ever call apon to attempt to explain ANYTHING! in a game I belive it is time to look at the book and then look at your players and go. Becouse thats what the script says.

:Roll 2d6:
:glitch:
Sanity loss
Sanity loss
Sanity loss

And since fasa made SR and BT this quote reguardless of how mangled I feel still holds.

Attempting to understand the sociological, Technological and economic evolution of the Battletech (Shadow run) Universe is akin to psychoanalyzing Bugs Bunny,

[WeaverMount]

Attempting to understand the sociological, Technological and economic evolution of the Battletech (Shadow run) Universe is akin to psychoanalyzing Bugs Bunny,

Where is that from!?!

My favorite BT quote: "If brute force doesn't work, you aren't using enough".

[Spike]

Should I be scared that I actually followed what he was saying in that 'fluff'?

Not that I understood how or why he, and his group, ever felt the need to... <ahem>.... quantify any of that.

[WeaverMount]

Bad spike! Bad! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

We didn't that isn't really my table's views just mine. And as Sir_psycho pointed out that kind of rant and get you throat punched in RL. Well not really, but rather than sit down a friend and risk boring them I posted it here so people could take it or leave it. Also the whole getting the idea for this post only took about 30 seconds. I already know what think about quantum consciousness and SW. I just got the idea for how skill wires could work, and "wait! there is some totally unaccessible, but awesome fluff that complies with RAW and makes sense ZOMG!" ... so I posted it

[MaxHunter]

this is the right place for nerdy rants, believe me. I kinda liked it. Just do not try anything like this in front of any girl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers,

Max

[Seven-7]

So there was a good bit of talk about skillwires flying around in the last few days. Rather than necro a ton of threads I'll just post this little diddy from augmentation about the interface between skill wires, commlinks, and activesofts



Formating mine to draw a parallel. So there you have it in black and white. It isn't REQUIRED that you actually slot chips anymore. A Skillwire can run softs stored on a comlink. I guess you could fixate the word onboard, but you would have to start inventing bandwidth issue rules to keep it from working.

This worked in SR3 as well.

[WeaverMount]

I'll take your word for it, having never played SR3. I though I remembered people here talking about needing a chip jack or some such. If that's the chase can you explain where the term "chipping" came from? Is it just cool fluff?

[Seven-7]

You were SUPPOSED to use chipjacks.

But skillsofts cost MP.

Therefor you could store them on Decks.


Decks had a DNI to your brain.


Thats all you needed to transfer skillsofts to skillwires.

[nathanross]

Well, Skillwires being my favorite ware, Ill lend my opinion.

I always imagined skillwires wiring a separate nervous system almost, with wires at least extending to the extremities like MBW or Wired reflexes. Looking at the essence cost though, I think it is more appropriate to consider it a module that sits on the spinal column/cerebellum and pretty much plays the owner like a doll.

As for the reason you can only run Rating *2 ratings of chips, I rationalize it as that the internal computer can only process this much code at a time. After all, this is not some software you pick up at best buy. These are 12k monsters (has anyone reduced the price in their game?). I usually access the Skillwires from headware memory, and they are definitely not wireless enabled.

I still working on some kind of ware to double the active capacity of the skillwire system. Not sure what the essence cost should be though. Somewhere between .1-.3 I think.

[WeaverMount]

@nathanross.

[quote]I still working on some kind of ware to double the active capacity of the skillwire system. Not sure what the essence cost should be though. Somewhere between .1-.3 I think[quote]

Zero. If processing power is the bottle neck there is no good reason to implant the extra CPU, use your favorite combo of skin link, DNI, datajacks, and trodes to non-wireless connect the computer to your wires. That's kinda why I like my version. The thing that must go in your meat is the bottble-neck.

Something else to point out. Also under the "classic" interpretation (I crack me up) there is no reason that skill wires don't automatically make you a bio drone. This is an explanation for a technology that would allow p-fix, but not rigging.

[Cadmus]

Where is that from!?!

Ya know I read it so many years ago I realy don't remember (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) But its right if ya ask me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and again loved teh fluff hehe

[Fortune]

I could quite happily live without the existence of Skillwires in Shadowrun.

[nathanross]

Zero. If processing power is the bottle neck there is no good reason to implant the extra CPU, use your favorite combo of skin link, DNI, datajacks, and trodes to non-wireless connect the computer to your wires. That's kinda why I like my version. The thing that must go in your meat is the bottble-neck.

What you have proposed is a way of storing Activesofts in secondary memory. I want something in my games that allows for more active Activesofts. Skillwires are already awesome I admit. However, I like the idea of them being even more awesome.

I could quite happily live without the existence of Skillwires in Shadowrun.

Hahahaha, I used to be fine too. But recently I just can't live without 'em.

[Cadmus]

Their a drug man! They just..get..under your skin ya know?

its like they control you man.

[WeaverMount]

What you have proposed is a way of storing Activesofts in secondary memory. I want something in my games that allows for more active Activesofts. Skillwires are already awesome I admit. However, I like the idea of them being even more awesome.

No I'm talking about running more activesoft at once. Here's the thing, you are thinking of the inplant "Skill Wires" as being two parts: a computer that runs a really complex program, and a synthetic parallel nerves system out puts those programs by making a body move. If you think along these lines you will have issues because no matter how hard it is to mimic the CPU part of SWs it can be down. Even if you have to buy another skill wire and "install" it in a tightly wond coil in your pocket, SR4 well allow you to generate the out put you need. I said hook it up to an external comlink because that is what we are call universal Turing machines in this setting. So sure maybe you also need an expert system to interface the two: doable. Skill wires just aren't a rigger adaptation for people

[nathanross]

I kind of understand what you're saying. However, I wonder this: do you think that skillwires can be made to run more softs at a time? And if so, without taking any kind of essence penalty?

I cannot think of why this implant/accessory should cost essence other than game balance. Do you feel that this is not an issue?

[Cadmus]

Well its inplanted into the body, hence it costs essence., That whole chi ect.. what ever ya want to call it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[WeaverMount]

I don't think that my vision of SWs could be made to run more skills at the same time because the bottle neck is implanted part; it can only add so much information to the wave form. I do you think your version could be powered by an external haystack and run as many skills as you cared to because the bottle neck is not in the implanted part.

As for balance, ehh I'd keep it cheep honestly. How much do you really benifit from having 8 skills loaded at once? I could see 3 skills being useful in extreme situations. Slot 1 for Dodge/Pilot. Slots 2 and 3 for each simple action. But this means you are getting shot at, returning fire, and scanning for a hidden node or something else that crazy. All having 4+ skills loaded would do is shave a couple simple actions of switching softs, like swapping out Electronic Warfare for perception once you trace the node, and now need to visually spot a black box while the gun fight rages.

As to how I would actually stat it, I'd go with a .1 essence expert system implant that turns swapping softs into a free action. What I like about that is it makes you play smart. If you manage your ammo, have a good plan with your team, etc you won't really feel the free actions to swap. If you are getting sloppy you may have to choose between a choice swap and telling your team something really important.

[nathanross]

As to how I would actually stat it, I'd go with a .1 essence expert system implant that turns swapping softs into a free action. What I like about that is it makes you play smart. If you manage your ammo, have a good plan with your team, etc you won't really feel the free actions to swap. If you are getting sloppy you may have to choose between a choice swap and telling your team something really important.

Nice, I think Ill try it this way.

[masterofm]

Maybe a random shot in the dark. But it seems runners are kind of like a rigger using themselves when skill wires being used.

This is a long shot theory as to why, but for one thing you cannot actually use edge with just a normal skill wire system. Maybe there is a part where the expert system actually gives your character more free movement over the skill wire system and thus allows you to spend edge? I mean there is something to be said about instincts and training... but then again how does a skill wire interpret something as nuanced as dodging?

There must be some form of interpretation that the skill wires make when the brain reacts to a dangerous situation. It might make sense since if you have skill wires you don't just dodge an ambush. Well something just tells me that most skill wires are indirect control based on basic responses in the brain. If you want to shoot someone maybe the skill wire system using firearms (automatics) interprets your basic brain response as 'I want to hurt that guy' and therefor controls the nervous system in your body to open fire on a target. I just wonder what sort of breakdown allows edge to be spent and edge not to be spent.... Does the expert system give you more active control over your skill wires and allow you to spend edge? Or is it just some crazy sci-fi explanation that will break my brain if I even try to jamb some logic into it.

Makes sense why you don't actually know any of the skills when you slot different active-softs, or use edge. If the system you install is top notch (rating four or five) the system only has so much processing power to interprit your brain on an ongoing basis to control and use your body.

Just a total shot in the dark. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[WeaverMount]

Well something just tells me that most skill wires are indirect control based on basic responses in the brain. If you want to shoot someone maybe the skill wire system using firearms (automatics) interprets your basic brain response as 'I want to hurt that guy' and therefor controls the nervous system in your body to open fire on a target

If that was the case you should be able to rig people with skill wires and Bio-Droids would be 20 years old. Combined with Sim-Sense you could jump into people easy, and that's not happening unless I missed something

[masterofm]

Well you are not actually "controlling" your body. It's more like the system looks at your brain and then uses that information to act itself. You are not really a rigger more then it's kind of a back and forth thing. Without brain function the skill wire's can't act (like when you get knocked out cold) and at the same time there is no direct control over the skill wires. If the skill wire does not actually broadcast a signal the only way you could jump in and control a person is if you just controlled the person's brain.

If you can control a brain's output then whats the point of jumping into someone and rigging them? If you give someone a virus that messes up someones program (since there has to be a way of installing the programs themselves) maybe it just scrambles what the skill wires view as the appropriate action that needs to be taken in any given situation. In this way it cuts out the ability to actively use someone as a drone if skill wires don't function as part of the brain but actually outside of it.