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WeaverMount
To barrow from Ancient History, I off some
Crunch:
[ Spoiler ]


Fluff:
[ Spoiler ]


Sir_Psycho
You know what? I'm going to base a corporate research scientist on you in one of my games. He will have a Neural Impulses (Skillwire Systems) knowledge skill of 6 (+2). A team will be sent on an extraction run to grab him, and when he starts "casually chatting" about his ideas on neural phsiology, any self-respecting samurai, or anyone with a logic below five, will punch him in the throat.

biggrin.gif
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Mar 10 2008, 03:47 AM) *
You know what? I'm going to base a corporate research scientist on you in one of my games. He will have a Neural Impulses (Skillwire Systems) skill of 6 (+2). A team will be sent on an extraction run to grab him, and when he starts "casually chatting" about his ideas on neural phsyiology, any self-respecting samurai, or anyone with a logic below five, will punch him in the throat.

biggrin.gif


Mr. Johnson might not be too pleased when he gets his uber scientist and finds that he is... damaged. grinbig.gif
Cadmus
To weavermount.
sir, you rock just for that post.

To the rest of dumpshock.
The moment! quantum physics is ever call apon to attempt to explain ANYTHING! in a game I belive it is time to look at the book and then look at your players and go. Becouse thats what the script says.

:Roll 2d6:
:glitch:
Sanity loss
Sanity loss
Sanity loss

And since fasa made SR and BT this quote reguardless of how mangled I feel still holds.

Attempting to understand the sociological, Technological and economic evolution of the Battletech (Shadow run) Universe is akin to psychoanalyzing Bugs Bunny,
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Cadmus @ Mar 10 2008, 06:12 AM) *
Attempting to understand the sociological, Technological and economic evolution of the Battletech (Shadow run) Universe is akin to psychoanalyzing Bugs Bunny,


Where is that from!?!

My favorite BT quote: "If brute force doesn't work, you aren't using enough".
Spike
Should I be scared that I actually followed what he was saying in that 'fluff'?

Not that I understood how or why he, and his group, ever felt the need to... <ahem>.... quantify any of that.
WeaverMount
Bad spike! Bad! wink.gif

We didn't that isn't really my table's views just mine. And as Sir_psycho pointed out that kind of rant and get you throat punched in RL. Well not really, but rather than sit down a friend and risk boring them I posted it here so people could take it or leave it. Also the whole getting the idea for this post only took about 30 seconds. I already know what think about quantum consciousness and SW. I just got the idea for how skill wires could work, and "wait! there is some totally unaccessible, but awesome fluff that complies with RAW and makes sense ZOMG!" ... so I posted it
MaxHunter
this is the right place for nerdy rants, believe me. I kinda liked it. Just do not try anything like this in front of any girl. smile.gif

Cheers,

Max
Seven-7
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 10 2008, 04:14 AM) *
So there was a good bit of talk about skillwires flying around in the last few days. Rather than necro a ton of threads I'll just post this little diddy from augmentation about the interface between skill wires, commlinks, and activesofts



Formating mine to draw a parallel. So there you have it in black and white. It isn't REQUIRED that you actually slot chips anymore. A Skillwire can run softs stored on a comlink. I guess you could fixate the word onboard, but you would have to start inventing bandwidth issue rules to keep it from working.



This worked in SR3 as well.
WeaverMount
I'll take your word for it, having never played SR3. I though I remembered people here talking about needing a chip jack or some such. If that's the chase can you explain where the term "chipping" came from? Is it just cool fluff?
Seven-7
You were SUPPOSED to use chipjacks.

But skillsofts cost MP.

Therefor you could store them on Decks.


Decks had a DNI to your brain.


Thats all you needed to transfer skillsofts to skillwires.
nathanross
Well, Skillwires being my favorite ware, Ill lend my opinion.

I always imagined skillwires wiring a separate nervous system almost, with wires at least extending to the extremities like MBW or Wired reflexes. Looking at the essence cost though, I think it is more appropriate to consider it a module that sits on the spinal column/cerebellum and pretty much plays the owner like a doll.

As for the reason you can only run Rating *2 ratings of chips, I rationalize it as that the internal computer can only process this much code at a time. After all, this is not some software you pick up at best buy. These are 12k monsters (has anyone reduced the price in their game?). I usually access the Skillwires from headware memory, and they are definitely not wireless enabled.

I still working on some kind of ware to double the active capacity of the skillwire system. Not sure what the essence cost should be though. Somewhere between .1-.3 I think.
WeaverMount
@nathanross.

[quote]I still working on some kind of ware to double the active capacity of the skillwire system. Not sure what the essence cost should be though. Somewhere between .1-.3 I think[quote]

Zero. If processing power is the bottle neck there is no good reason to implant the extra CPU, use your favorite combo of skin link, DNI, datajacks, and trodes to non-wireless connect the computer to your wires. That's kinda why I like my version. The thing that must go in your meat is the bottble-neck.

Something else to point out. Also under the "classic" interpretation (I crack me up) there is no reason that skill wires don't automatically make you a bio drone. This is an explanation for a technology that would allow p-fix, but not rigging.
Cadmus
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 10 2008, 11:38 AM) *
Where is that from!?!



Ya know I read it so many years ago I realy don't remember frown.gif But its right if ya ask me smile.gif and again loved teh fluff hehe

Fortune
I could quite happily live without the existence of Skillwires in Shadowrun.
nathanross
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 10 2008, 03:50 PM) *
Zero. If processing power is the bottle neck there is no good reason to implant the extra CPU, use your favorite combo of skin link, DNI, datajacks, and trodes to non-wireless connect the computer to your wires. That's kinda why I like my version. The thing that must go in your meat is the bottble-neck.

What you have proposed is a way of storing Activesofts in secondary memory. I want something in my games that allows for more active Activesofts. Skillwires are already awesome I admit. However, I like the idea of them being even more awesome.

QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 10 2008, 05:03 PM) *
I could quite happily live without the existence of Skillwires in Shadowrun.

Hahahaha, I used to be fine too. But recently I just can't live without 'em.
Cadmus
Their a drug man! They just..get..under your skin ya know?

its like they control you man.

WeaverMount
QUOTE
What you have proposed is a way of storing Activesofts in secondary memory. I want something in my games that allows for more active Activesofts. Skillwires are already awesome I admit. However, I like the idea of them being even more awesome.


No I'm talking about running more activesoft at once. Here's the thing, you are thinking of the inplant "Skill Wires" as being two parts: a computer that runs a really complex program, and a synthetic parallel nerves system out puts those programs by making a body move. If you think along these lines you will have issues because no matter how hard it is to mimic the CPU part of SWs it can be down. Even if you have to buy another skill wire and "install" it in a tightly wond coil in your pocket, SR4 well allow you to generate the out put you need. I said hook it up to an external comlink because that is what we are call universal Turing machines in this setting. So sure maybe you also need an expert system to interface the two: doable. Skill wires just aren't a rigger adaptation for people
nathanross
I kind of understand what you're saying. However, I wonder this: do you think that skillwires can be made to run more softs at a time? And if so, without taking any kind of essence penalty?

I cannot think of why this implant/accessory should cost essence other than game balance. Do you feel that this is not an issue?
Cadmus
Well its inplanted into the body, hence it costs essence., That whole chi ect.. what ever ya want to call it smile.gif
WeaverMount
I don't think that my vision of SWs could be made to run more skills at the same time because the bottle neck is implanted part; it can only add so much information to the wave form. I do you think your version could be powered by an external haystack and run as many skills as you cared to because the bottle neck is not in the implanted part.

As for balance, ehh I'd keep it cheep honestly. How much do you really benifit from having 8 skills loaded at once? I could see 3 skills being useful in extreme situations. Slot 1 for Dodge/Pilot. Slots 2 and 3 for each simple action. But this means you are getting shot at, returning fire, and scanning for a hidden node or something else that crazy. All having 4+ skills loaded would do is shave a couple simple actions of switching softs, like swapping out Electronic Warfare for perception once you trace the node, and now need to visually spot a black box while the gun fight rages.

As to how I would actually stat it, I'd go with a .1 essence expert system implant that turns swapping softs into a free action. What I like about that is it makes you play smart. If you manage your ammo, have a good plan with your team, etc you won't really feel the free actions to swap. If you are getting sloppy you may have to choose between a choice swap and telling your team something really important.
nathanross
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 11 2008, 01:16 PM) *
As to how I would actually stat it, I'd go with a .1 essence expert system implant that turns swapping softs into a free action. What I like about that is it makes you play smart. If you manage your ammo, have a good plan with your team, etc you won't really feel the free actions to swap. If you are getting sloppy you may have to choose between a choice swap and telling your team something really important.

Nice, I think Ill try it this way.
masterofm
Maybe a random shot in the dark. But it seems runners are kind of like a rigger using themselves when skill wires being used.

This is a long shot theory as to why, but for one thing you cannot actually use edge with just a normal skill wire system. Maybe there is a part where the expert system actually gives your character more free movement over the skill wire system and thus allows you to spend edge? I mean there is something to be said about instincts and training... but then again how does a skill wire interpret something as nuanced as dodging?

There must be some form of interpretation that the skill wires make when the brain reacts to a dangerous situation. It might make sense since if you have skill wires you don't just dodge an ambush. Well something just tells me that most skill wires are indirect control based on basic responses in the brain. If you want to shoot someone maybe the skill wire system using firearms (automatics) interprets your basic brain response as 'I want to hurt that guy' and therefor controls the nervous system in your body to open fire on a target. I just wonder what sort of breakdown allows edge to be spent and edge not to be spent.... Does the expert system give you more active control over your skill wires and allow you to spend edge? Or is it just some crazy sci-fi explanation that will break my brain if I even try to jamb some logic into it.

Makes sense why you don't actually know any of the skills when you slot different active-softs, or use edge. If the system you install is top notch (rating four or five) the system only has so much processing power to interprit your brain on an ongoing basis to control and use your body.

Just a total shot in the dark. indifferent.gif
WeaverMount
QUOTE
Well something just tells me that most skill wires are indirect control based on basic responses in the brain. If you want to shoot someone maybe the skill wire system using firearms (automatics) interprets your basic brain response as 'I want to hurt that guy' and therefor controls the nervous system in your body to open fire on a target


If that was the case you should be able to rig people with skill wires and Bio-Droids would be 20 years old. Combined with Sim-Sense you could jump into people easy, and that's not happening unless I missed something
masterofm
Well you are not actually "controlling" your body. It's more like the system looks at your brain and then uses that information to act itself. You are not really a rigger more then it's kind of a back and forth thing. Without brain function the skill wire's can't act (like when you get knocked out cold) and at the same time there is no direct control over the skill wires. If the skill wire does not actually broadcast a signal the only way you could jump in and control a person is if you just controlled the person's brain.

If you can control a brain's output then whats the point of jumping into someone and rigging them? If you give someone a virus that messes up someones program (since there has to be a way of installing the programs themselves) maybe it just scrambles what the skill wires view as the appropriate action that needs to be taken in any given situation. In this way it cuts out the ability to actively use someone as a drone if skill wires don't function as part of the brain but actually outside of it.
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Cadmus @ Mar 10 2008, 07:12 AM) *
Attempting to understand the sociological, Technological and economic evolution of the Battletech (Shadow run) Universe is akin to psychoanalyzing Bugs Bunny,


Man, Bugs is a rich tapestry of psychosexual peculiarity. Not to mention a perfect form for the Trickster spirit mentor.

+2 on Con tests, +2 on Disguise tests (transvestitism only), must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) test not to reveal oneself to a pursuer after escaping (and saying "nyeahhh, what's up, Doc?").


Cadmus
To master ofm

I see what you are saying but I belive the trick is in the programing, the wires are in the end still controled by the brain they simply use part of it to get you to use that skill, The brain has to basicly say. ok skill wires we are disarming this bomb. go to it. or I want to shoot that man help me out here. simply loading a program into the wires I don't belive is enough. since through the wires you can't control the mind and body of the person as a whole. the brain has to flip the so called switch ya know.

Now..loading naughty things into another persons skill wires is compleatly diffrent, you can't control them but you might be able to hack them and drop a virus or mess with some active softs. you know, you might not be able to get them to dance but you can use as hell corrupt that active soft on demo or long arms and maybe make their life more intresting, or a load of other nasty tricks. Ah yes you got to love SR's wireless leap forward. if your not careful you leave your self open to all sorts of fun. scatter.gif
masterofm
Well whats to say that skill wires are hard built into your body? I mean if you are to slot some programs into the skill wire system maybe it does not receive a wireless signal. If your brain thinks I need to disarm this bomb, and you have demolitions not active then the skill wires might read your brain and take a simple action to switch gears into bomb disarming? Your brain has some control over your skill wires, but in the end it could be the skill wires doing most of the work in the end. Thus you can't spend edge without an extra system that allows for more active usage of the skill wires?

Yes the skill wires are controlled by the brain. Maybe I didn't quite get that part across, but if your brain thinks bomb, fear the skill wires do the rest of it for you. So therefore you don't really learn anything when using the skill wires as there is no actual direct linkage of brain to skill wires. You want something done so the skill wires do it.

For instance if you are in a bar and think person 1, 2, and 3 are fine and you are cautious of person 4 the skill wires do not just bust out your gun and start mowing person 4 down. The minute you think person 4 is putting you in danger and needs some serious hurt brought on it the skill wires grab your gun and start shooting. Person 1, 2, and 3 are fine since your mind doesn't perceive them as active threats. Although with the right virus when person 4 becomes a threat maybe the skill wires interpret that is "time to kill all non active threats" and you grab you gun and start shooting at person 1, 2, and 3? Could make for an interesting combat round.
Feshy
QUOTE
I'm not sure how many of you are up on your quantum physics based theories of free will and consciousness. For those of you who aren't the creditable theories revolve around an observer employing the quantum Zeno effect to maintain a neurological template of action (I underlined good search terms if you care to go digging).


This is the credible theory? It implies that free will is external to your brain -- in other words, it's technobabble for "here's how the soul interacts with the world." Might as well have thrown in tachyons somewhere. Plus, once a waveform collapses, the Zeno effect no longer... well... effects. Plus, I was under the impression that the Zeno effect only held for radioactive decay anyway, not for all quantum waveforms (which often don't follow the same exponential pattern that causes it to work for radioactive materials.)

In my humble opinion, such big-word quantum nonsense isn't necessary. Here's where we differ:
QUOTE
How do you use technical skills to design something. Also the rating capping max skill rank makes perfect sense, but why can't you have have a bigger library, thus slotting lots of skills at once. Compiling and outputing the scripts would be the computational bottle neck, not the size of your code base. And hardest to swallow, how do you even vaguely begin to chip Social skills.


Why can't you just load more libraries for more skills indefinitely (or to the capacity of the memory, for the purposes of SR4 the same thing)? Because it isn't just a library of robot controls. It's a feedback loop -- an actively monitored one controlling and monitoring billions of neurons simultaneously over a distributed non-uniform system. All for a couple thousand nuyen and minor essence (it's a heck of a buy really.) Let's say for the sake of argument that your body is less like a CPU running libC and more like... chaos theory. We'll use an example of a flock of birds as a simplified chaos math model, and a flock of robobirds as the CPU model.

Let's say we're doing something rather simple, like a punch to the face of your local ganger. We'll put this in our model as "fly east." There will be complications though, the ganger will try to duck. We'll model that as a slight southerly wind. Robobird model takes a heading and commands all birds to turn until their heading matches east. This will automatically correct for the wind. Done. Look at the real bird model -- let's say we can excite one side of a few birds, and they turn east-ish. Most of the birds follow, but average out somewhat southeast instead. Some leave the flock entirely and continue downwind. Further corrections are applied, and eventually, the most of the flock heads east.

Now, let's make it more complicated. We want to punch the local ganger while rappelling down from a building and keeping up our witty dialog the whole way. That's three skillsofts. "Do a barrel roll while heading east and descend 1,000 feet" in our model. Except, now there are lots of complications. Slippery surfaces. Rappelling claps. Finding a word that rhymes with "ork slut." So now we've got crosswinds, some of the birds are hungry, there' a predatory hawk circling, and there is a thermal nearby. Robobird model is still pretty simple. We load the barrel roll program, and head east while descending. The winds and such are relatively easy to compensate for in the robot case. Now, the real bird flock... well, some are going to avoid the hawk. Some are going to land and eat. Some are going to coast in that thermal, until they see the flock. No matter what our few birds under control do (and they won't be likely to drift east-ish under all those pressures) the flock is going to come apart because we can't possibly predict and compensate for the reactions of every single bird in it. The external influences have overwhelmed our system.

This is the way to think of skillwires -- as chaos-theory manipulators working with a complex and imprecise system. (If your body and brain wasn't such a creature, you could get away with far fewer neurons after all!) Too many tasks and too many external influences can overwhelm that control, thus limiting you in the number of "libraries" you can use at once.

As for social skillsofts, they are the same as other skillsofts. You have the same diffuse and incomplete feedback (body postures of your subjects, voice inflections -- or more accurately, your perception of them as determined by your charisma score) and the same inputs (your own body posture, game theory analysis and skillsoft feedback causing you to favor certain words based on your unconscious observations of your subject, etc.) It's no different than analyzing the complex feedback from climbing, punching a slub in the face, or keeping your motorbike upright in a tight turn.

WeaverMount
>It implies that free will is external to your brain -- in other words, it's technobabble for "here's how the soul interacts with the world."
Fleshy I got into all this over a exact that. I was arguing with someone saying that there is no way we can have free will. I asserted that we are completely controlled by deterministic systems there for we free will and consciousness are at most epiphenomena. They said do your homework. I got this link

http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/stappfiles.html

The author, Stapp, is published in journals and works at the Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, so I'm personally not call him a crank. But I really really want to because is isn't shy about being a dualist ... which makes you a crank. My impression is that he is a good scientist who got to the edge of a model legitimately, and the makes a wild claim that the model isn't powerful enough to disprove and claims that they are right. What I really took away from his work is that non-deterministic phenomena are involved in the physical processes involved in consciousness. That alone is a pretty big deal to me. I would encourage you,Fleshy, to completely ignore me and read some of his stuff be saying you know anything about this theory. Anything that is complete BS is almost certainly my mistake
Also I'll have to look into the Zeno effect. That was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to get by posting here.

I like your model. It's basiclly the same system as mine, but with mechanism you understand.
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Mar 11 2008, 04:03 PM) *
If that was the case you should be able to rig people with skill wires and Bio-Droids would be 20 years old. Combined with Sim-Sense you could jump into people easy, and that's not happening unless I missed something


This was discussed in some early caveman Dumpshock, like NAGEE or NERPS, along with rating 0 skillwires for the handicapped.
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