Heavily Armored Vs. Pistol, And the pistol wins? Options

[CrystalBlue]

Ok, this was kinda bugging me, and maybe I'm missing the rules somewhere...but...

I had a team of heavily armed SWAT type members. Ballistic armor for them, with all their armor and Orthoskin and such, was around 17. Body of 5 made it a resistance test of 22. I had these NPC's going up against a very veteran Shadowrunner, so the results were as expected, but something's bothering me about their armor. The PC in question was using customized heavy pistols. 5p damage. They rolled a ton of dice and got around 7 hits and 5 hits. Let's just say I dodged like crap. That's a 5p weapon being increased to 12p and 10p bullets. Now, before anything is rolled, I calculate if it can get through the armor. 17 Ballistic vs 12p normal ammo. So it is reduced to stun damage. I roll my resistance test and get around 6 success. That puts each bullet down to 6s and 4s. That's 10 boxes of stun. Uh oh! I'm unconcious!

Now, how the hell did this happen? And what's more, I didn't even take into consideration that the person took called shots, was using Gel rounds, things like that. I basically got hosed by superiour successes and my armor didn't help one bit! Shouldn't this armor be better at stopping bullets? One or two good shots takes out a 400 point built NPC...with Alpha bioware and modified weapons and armor! That's drek...

Is my math completely wrong? Please let me know.

[Jhaiisiin]

Your math seems spot on. The good news is your armor *did* stop the bullets. They just left really big bruises and the impact of a high-powered double-tap knocked you cold. You however, are not bleeding to death, and will wake up with aches and pains in a couple hours, assuming the runner doesn't come by and put a bullet in your head for good measure.

I know SR doesn't always reflect real life, but it does seem odd that you can take so much stun damage from a bullet...

[Drogos]

Well, IRL, most shots in a firefight are misses. If you get a highly trained marksmen firing at a person standing out in the open...the target = (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) . Now, in the case of body armor, again IRL, it hurts like mad when you take a direct hit, if to the chest it generally knocks the wind out of you. Two shot in quick sucession could easily put you to the floor. This is why SWAT Teams hide behind balistic shields and cover when they breach, and use flashbangs as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Zak]

Your numbers are kind of unrealistic. 7 net hits is alot. I don't think you will ever see that in a 'real' SR4 combat situation.

Yes, SR4 has the problem of knocking out heavy armor/high bod guys faster via the stun route. But I don't see the need to change that.

[Whipstitch]

Now, how the hell did this happen? And what's more, I didn't even take into consideration that the person took called shots, was using Gel rounds, things like that. I basically got hosed by superiour successes and my armor didn't help one bit! Shouldn't this armor be better at stopping bullets? One or two good shots takes out a 400 point built NPC...with Alpha bioware and modified weapons and armor! That's drek...

Is my math completely wrong? Please let me know.

Yeah, the armor did stop the bullets, it's just too bad that didn't stop the runners from bouncing rounds right off the SWAT team's helmeted foreheads. I mean, seriously... 7 and 5 net hits? That's critical success territory-- it's not so much that the armor did nothing so much that the armor prevented the bullet from penetrating someone's brain pain or busting through a vest and causing overflow into physical. A First Aid test and a stimpatch can have that guy up and running around in no time. Had that been one of my PCs who dual wielded APDS loaded Ruger Warhawks that SWAT guy would assuredly have been dead on the spot without all that armor.

[CrystalBlue]

Well, I admit, the NPC that did have the ballistic shield didn't have enough time to get out of the car before two others were on the ground. And in the end, he ran like a bitch, cause there was no way he was going to win. That, plus the fight was outside, on a road, cause the runners were actually smart with their extraction and didn't get themselves boxed into the building where would have been overwealmed after a short time.

It just irks me that they put them down so damn quick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) I'll just have to think of better tactics when out in the open...

And you also have to take into account, this other runners was a superior runner. She didn't have what she used to and she's not twinked...but she did roll a good 20+ dice. It was insane, but it was by the book.

[Larme]

In general, someone with 21 resistance dice could absorb DV7. If that person is shot by anyone who isn't highly skilled with DV7 or less, he will take no damage. Someone with that much armor would basically be immune to holdout pistols, light pistols, heavy pistols, and even rifles shot by amateurs, which is how it should be.

In your example, I'm not sure where you're getting 12P from. ExEx was errata'd, it only does +1 DV -1 AP now. But yeah, when we're talking about highly skilled people, combat is very deadly in SR4. Each additional DV is three extra dice someone would statistically need to soak the damage. So DV4 requires just 12 dice to take no damage. But add 5 net hits and ExEx and you're looking at 10P, or 30 dice to soak, just from a light pistol! It's possible to have that many dice of you're a tanking type troll. But most people, when shot with that much expert accuracy, are going to die or go unconscious.

[Blade]

5 to 7 net hits means an extremely lucky/good shot. Probably hit the head or another sensitive area. If the 17 armor dice (statistically 5+2/3 hits) aren't enough to soak the damage, it means it may have hit a less protected area, or something like that.

A hardened helmet will prevent you from getting killed, but it doesn't absorb a bullet without any side effect... I don't know how it exactly feels like, but I guess you can compare it to getting punched in the face. Too many of these and you're knocked out.

I don't think the problem lies in the way armor works. I'm curious to know how the PC managed to get 5 to 7 hits on average, even if the NPC dodged like crap. (did he have optimal shooting conditions or does he have an extremely large dice pool?) Maybe that's where the trouble came from.
Also keep in mind that a SWAT armor isn't meant to play Robocop. It's meant to save your life, not to bounce off bullets. Even with such an armor, the wearer are supposed to avoid getting shot at.

[Drogos]

I'll just have to think of better tactics when out in the open...

The team in question would have put the vehicle between themselves and the perps, providing at least partial cover. Also, remember visibility factors and other negative modifiers, cause I'm sure your runners don't forget to add in their smartlinks and recoil compensation. Tactics if one is unfamiliar with modern combat can be difficult to grasp. And if you team consistently rolls that many hits, check their dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to add, don't forget to give people witht he proper access bonus for AR uplinks to tactical data. For Example, if Lone Star dispatches a SWAT Team, they are probably going to send at least an aerial drone to provide over watch and beam that info to the team, and if the firefight takes place out in the street, there are often cameras placed at intersections that would also provide some data. In other words, whatever works for the players goes double to screw them over LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Wounded Ronin]

To CrystalBlue: they're 80s pistols. See?

[Whipstitch]

Also: Drones, drones, drones and more drones. They have many initiative passes and are immune to stun by definition, which makes them cheap and mean. SWAT teams shouldn't get caught in the open, they should send in drones and then break cover only when their mechanical minions are already drawing all the fire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Drogos]

As I edited above, Whip is totally accurate. I mean, that is what the runners would do, so why wouldn't the pros do it the same way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

The OP mentioned the shooter was rolling 20 dice. That's 5-7 hits on average for that dice pool. 12p is 5p base + 7 hits, so his math is fine.

[Drogos]

I suppose part of my post is it is unlikely reason the player should have been rolling 20 dice. Unless the swat team was 0-5 meters away, in broad daylight, standing out in the open, etc.

[Feshy]

The thing that makes SWAT dangerous isn't the SW (special weapons) it's the AT (and tactics!) Flashbangs, firing from cover, smoke, thermal smoke, distractions, and overwhelming numbers should be standard for every SWAT encounter. If your guys could score 7 hits, either there wasn't enough negative modifiers, or they used a large edge (and thus deserve their success.) If the runners are "smart" and refuse to be pinned down where SWAT can come down on them like a ton of bricks, then SWAT doesn't go in -- they fall back to the SW and send in drones and other high-threat but easy to replace equipment (spirits, if possible.)

It's also worth pointing out that with the rules in arsenal, adding a biomonitor and auto-injector (rating 6 stim) to a SWAT armor suit is very, very cheap.

[samuelbeckett]

The OP mentioned the shooter was rolling 20 dice. That's 5-7 hits on average for that dice pool. 12p is 5p base + 7 hits, so his math is fine.

His math is fine assuming the person being shot at got no successes on his Reaction at all (and didn't bother to interrupt Full Defense, and didn't take advantage of anything that could reduce the attacker die pool etc.)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

20 dice.

Human unmodified maximum (i.e. Olympic target shooting under ideal conditions) is 12 dice, and he's shooting with 50% more than that.

Why shouldn't it at least KO the target?

Of course, as stated, proper tactics - lights out, flashbangs & smoke used, cover taken, he'd be rolling a LOT less than 20 dice.

[Jhaiisiin]

Oh, I realize that. They also mentioned poor/no dodge and such. It's easily inferred from the example (given he stated in the open) that there were few if any modifiers affecting the runner. In a toe to toe, open field fight, this works as is. But it's not realistic for SR.

More likely, SWAT rolls up just as the runner is exiting the building. It's dark, the swat team is a good 10m away (reasonable deploy distance) and the Runner is moving quickly to get out and away. The runner is without cover and possibly wounded, depending on what happened inside, but as SWAT exits their armored van, they do so in a covering formation to help insure survivability.

Runner comes away with penalties for range, lighting, running and possibly wound mods.

SWAT gets bonuses from cover (partial or good, depending on the team member)

That's a bit more realistic, and still not as effective as it could be for the SWAT guys. With proper mods, the SWAT team is going to be taking fewer shots, and many of them won't be doing more than a scratch here or there, even on the stun track.

[Blade]

The thing that makes SWAT dangerous isn't the SW (special weapons) it's the AT (and tactics!) Flashbangs, firing from cover, smoke, thermal smoke, distractions, and overwhelming numbers should be standard for every SWAT encounter.

Exactly. Play the SWAT 3 or 4 video game... From a terrorist standpoint it should be something like:
* The locked door suddenly burst open
* There's a bright flash and a loud bang
* I'm dead (if my weapon was towards them) or, after recovering from the flashbang, I've got 2 to 5 guys with big guns and heavy armor around me yelling to me to get drop my gun.

It should be a bit different out in the street, but I guess they've got tactics for situations like this.

[Moon-Hawk]

Human unmodified maximum (i.e. Olympic target shooting under ideal conditions) is 12 dice, and he's shooting with 50% more than that.

Just to nitpick, a human with exceptional attribute (7) and aptitude (7) with a specialization in the weapon (+2) rolls 16 dice, assuming he isn't using a laser sight.
Nitpick aside, I still completely agree with you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CrystalBlue]

I guess this needs much more explination...

First combat turn, the rigger providing overwatch over the building pulled back his drones and got the big ones ready and turned on. Meanwhile, the van with the SWAT team had stopped and the two NPC's in the back opened the doors. Their turns were to take cover behind the van and ready inturrupt attacks.

PC's turns, they all focused on one guy, who happened to have been the driver, while the uber-PC in question made her way across the street. In the same turn, she shot twice at the passanger NPC that got out and was taking cover. That was around 7 and 6 hits. I dodge but can only push those two numbers down to 5 and 3. Also, remember that this person, the turn before, had been taking aim. So the first shot was a called shot. She was also using Gel rounds. The damage of the pistol was 5p. With gel rounds, it goes up by, I think, 2. That's 7s. Then, it's a called shot, so that's 11s. Add in the net hits, and that's 16s. I take my impact armor, increase it, and I get 16 impact armor. I then add my body and roll 22 dice. I get 7 hits. Against a 16s weapon, I just took 9s. The next shot will hit and I can't soak it all, so I go down. I believe I overflowed stun into physical and ended up with 10s and 3p damage. Some nice internal bleeding with that shot. Yay.

And that's not even talking about everyone else's turns, which didn't matter much. This is all still the first combat turn. The PC in question still had 3 more initiative passes before they were done, in which they would have taken out another of the NPC's before the rigger got a chance to pull out his combat drones. Thankfully, I did piss off the hacker of the group when he tried to mess around with the rigger, who happened to be a technomancer with serious skills. Almost blew his ass away too...around 6 or 7 points of bio-feedback.

I think that's a clearer picture of what happened...trust me, I didn't mean for the run to go this way, it's just that one PC had their thinking cap on and managed to find a loophole in my planning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[kzt]

It's a TEAM, not three guys. The cops don't play fair. You have 12 or more SWAT guys, not 3. Plus airborne fire support, etc.

You made it a pushover, and they pushed.

[Stahlseele]

she's a street sam or pistolero adept . . she's MEANT to do that much damage O.o
it's the same as with the Troll-Tank taking on a PAC Round and still being upright with not too much trouble and the mage taking out whole squads with a stun-ball . . if you nerf that aspect, you gotta stay fair and nerf everything else too and make the game mcuh more deadly *g*

[Spike]

In addition to not having nearly enough people there to qualify as a 'SWAT' response, they also would not have been piling out of their van right as the runners were on their position, not without a total FUBAR somewhere in the chain of command.

Call it a GM tactical foulup: these guys make their money dealing with well armed violent people. THey KNOW they're most vulnerable while deploying, so they deploy where it's safe and move to the site before you know they are there. They also know to bring the numbers.

There is a reason you see long seiges on the news when HRT teams/swat/whomever is called to deal with hostages, its safer and more effective to lock down the scene in a controlled fashion and wait for the other guy to screw up and leave an opening or surrender. Once he leaves the opening, that's when the assault happens.

You want to put the pressure on the party with teams like this? Force them to chose between assaulting a vastly superior (numbers and equipment anyway) force in an entrenched position OR waiting until they either think of a clever escape plan OR get assaulted, generally where/when they least expect it.

Think about the end of The Professional. If Mathilda hadn't deliberately screwed up the knock Leon probably would have been screwed, as it was all he could do was hold the apartment long enough to get mathilda out while the SWAT guys brought up more gear.

THAT is how swat vs runner should play out.

Or at least, in a grimmer, professional 'realistic' sort of way. For total 'action movie' they should be rappelling through skylights with submachine guns blazing. Again with the numbers, and at least at first, with the surprise.

[PBTHHHHT]

I guess this needs much more explination...

First combat turn, the rigger providing overwatch over the building pulled back his drones and got the big ones ready and turned on. Meanwhile, the van with the SWAT team had stopped and the two NPC's in the back opened the doors. Their turns were to take cover behind the van and ready inturrupt attacks.

If you have a chance, watch Dallas SWAT or the other shows on cable, or read up on the older edition sourcebooks about LS's HRT teams. As what Spike and kzt already said. You have too few guys, there'll be more than one armored vehicle that would pull up to respond. Plus, the team would usually make planning/surveillance before initiating an assault. In the srun world that means lots of drones, not just surveillance drones, I can see them also pulling in the armed drones also to augment a SWAT team.

A regular van that the runners managed to take out the driver with pistols? That's unlikely especially if the SWAT knows they're going against runners, likely they'd use heavier vehicles with armored windows/slits. Good luck taking out the driver with pistols especially in the srun world, the driver doesn't even need to be in the driver seat, it may just be rigged from the back of the van or even remotely if need be. Right before the vehicles make their approach/entry, the drones should be used to throw the runners off guard in the scenario you described when they're out in the open. The drones using flash/smoke grenades, bright spotlights and lots of noise to throw them off guard as the vehicles pull up and the SWAT team piles out using the vehicle as cover and aiming their weapons at the runners.