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CrystalBlue
Ok, this was kinda bugging me, and maybe I'm missing the rules somewhere...but...

I had a team of heavily armed SWAT type members. Ballistic armor for them, with all their armor and Orthoskin and such, was around 17. Body of 5 made it a resistance test of 22. I had these NPC's going up against a very veteran Shadowrunner, so the results were as expected, but something's bothering me about their armor. The PC in question was using customized heavy pistols. 5p damage. They rolled a ton of dice and got around 7 hits and 5 hits. Let's just say I dodged like crap. That's a 5p weapon being increased to 12p and 10p bullets. Now, before anything is rolled, I calculate if it can get through the armor. 17 Ballistic vs 12p normal ammo. So it is reduced to stun damage. I roll my resistance test and get around 6 success. That puts each bullet down to 6s and 4s. That's 10 boxes of stun. Uh oh! I'm unconcious!

Now, how the hell did this happen? And what's more, I didn't even take into consideration that the person took called shots, was using Gel rounds, things like that. I basically got hosed by superiour successes and my armor didn't help one bit! Shouldn't this armor be better at stopping bullets? One or two good shots takes out a 400 point built NPC...with Alpha bioware and modified weapons and armor! That's drek...

Is my math completely wrong? Please let me know.
Jhaiisiin
Your math seems spot on. The good news is your armor *did* stop the bullets. They just left really big bruises and the impact of a high-powered double-tap knocked you cold. You however, are not bleeding to death, and will wake up with aches and pains in a couple hours, assuming the runner doesn't come by and put a bullet in your head for good measure.

I know SR doesn't always reflect real life, but it does seem odd that you can take so much stun damage from a bullet...
Drogos
Well, IRL, most shots in a firefight are misses. If you get a highly trained marksmen firing at a person standing out in the open...the target = dead.gif. Now, in the case of body armor, again IRL, it hurts like mad when you take a direct hit, if to the chest it generally knocks the wind out of you. Two shot in quick sucession could easily put you to the floor. This is why SWAT Teams hide behind balistic shields and cover when they breach, and use flashbangs as well biggrin.gif
Zak
Your numbers are kind of unrealistic. 7 net hits is alot. I don't think you will ever see that in a 'real' SR4 combat situation.

Yes, SR4 has the problem of knocking out heavy armor/high bod guys faster via the stun route. But I don't see the need to change that.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Mar 12 2008, 11:36 AM) *
Now, how the hell did this happen? And what's more, I didn't even take into consideration that the person took called shots, was using Gel rounds, things like that. I basically got hosed by superiour successes and my armor didn't help one bit! Shouldn't this armor be better at stopping bullets? One or two good shots takes out a 400 point built NPC...with Alpha bioware and modified weapons and armor! That's drek...

Is my math completely wrong? Please let me know.



Yeah, the armor did stop the bullets, it's just too bad that didn't stop the runners from bouncing rounds right off the SWAT team's helmeted foreheads. I mean, seriously... 7 and 5 net hits? That's critical success territory-- it's not so much that the armor did nothing so much that the armor prevented the bullet from penetrating someone's brain pain or busting through a vest and causing overflow into physical. A First Aid test and a stimpatch can have that guy up and running around in no time. Had that been one of my PCs who dual wielded APDS loaded Ruger Warhawks that SWAT guy would assuredly have been dead on the spot without all that armor.
CrystalBlue
Well, I admit, the NPC that did have the ballistic shield didn't have enough time to get out of the car before two others were on the ground. And in the end, he ran like a bitch, cause there was no way he was going to win. That, plus the fight was outside, on a road, cause the runners were actually smart with their extraction and didn't get themselves boxed into the building where would have been overwealmed after a short time.

It just irks me that they put them down so damn quick. frown.gif I'll just have to think of better tactics when out in the open...

And you also have to take into account, this other runners was a superior runner. She didn't have what she used to and she's not twinked...but she did roll a good 20+ dice. It was insane, but it was by the book.
Larme
In general, someone with 21 resistance dice could absorb DV7. If that person is shot by anyone who isn't highly skilled with DV7 or less, he will take no damage. Someone with that much armor would basically be immune to holdout pistols, light pistols, heavy pistols, and even rifles shot by amateurs, which is how it should be.

In your example, I'm not sure where you're getting 12P from. ExEx was errata'd, it only does +1 DV -1 AP now. But yeah, when we're talking about highly skilled people, combat is very deadly in SR4. Each additional DV is three extra dice someone would statistically need to soak the damage. So DV4 requires just 12 dice to take no damage. But add 5 net hits and ExEx and you're looking at 10P, or 30 dice to soak, just from a light pistol! It's possible to have that many dice of you're a tanking type troll. But most people, when shot with that much expert accuracy, are going to die or go unconscious.
Blade
5 to 7 net hits means an extremely lucky/good shot. Probably hit the head or another sensitive area. If the 17 armor dice (statistically 5+2/3 hits) aren't enough to soak the damage, it means it may have hit a less protected area, or something like that.

A hardened helmet will prevent you from getting killed, but it doesn't absorb a bullet without any side effect... I don't know how it exactly feels like, but I guess you can compare it to getting punched in the face. Too many of these and you're knocked out.

I don't think the problem lies in the way armor works. I'm curious to know how the PC managed to get 5 to 7 hits on average, even if the NPC dodged like crap. (did he have optimal shooting conditions or does he have an extremely large dice pool?) Maybe that's where the trouble came from.
Also keep in mind that a SWAT armor isn't meant to play Robocop. It's meant to save your life, not to bounce off bullets. Even with such an armor, the wearer are supposed to avoid getting shot at.
Drogos
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Mar 12 2008, 12:56 PM) *
I'll just have to think of better tactics when out in the open...


The team in question would have put the vehicle between themselves and the perps, providing at least partial cover. Also, remember visibility factors and other negative modifiers, cause I'm sure your runners don't forget to add in their smartlinks and recoil compensation. Tactics if one is unfamiliar with modern combat can be difficult to grasp. And if you team consistently rolls that many hits, check their dice wink.gif

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot to add, don't forget to give people witht he proper access bonus for AR uplinks to tactical data. For Example, if Lone Star dispatches a SWAT Team, they are probably going to send at least an aerial drone to provide over watch and beam that info to the team, and if the firefight takes place out in the street, there are often cameras placed at intersections that would also provide some data. In other words, whatever works for the players goes double to screw them over LOL biggrin.gif
Wounded Ronin
To CrystalBlue: they're 80s pistols. See?
Whipstitch
Also: Drones, drones, drones and more drones. They have many initiative passes and are immune to stun by definition, which makes them cheap and mean. SWAT teams shouldn't get caught in the open, they should send in drones and then break cover only when their mechanical minions are already drawing all the fire. devil.gif
Drogos
As I edited above, Whip is totally accurate. I mean, that is what the runners would do, so why wouldn't the pros do it the same way biggrin.gif
Jhaiisiin
The OP mentioned the shooter was rolling 20 dice. That's 5-7 hits on average for that dice pool. 12p is 5p base + 7 hits, so his math is fine.
Drogos
I suppose part of my post is it is unlikely reason the player should have been rolling 20 dice. Unless the swat team was 0-5 meters away, in broad daylight, standing out in the open, etc.
Feshy
The thing that makes SWAT dangerous isn't the SW (special weapons) it's the AT (and tactics!) Flashbangs, firing from cover, smoke, thermal smoke, distractions, and overwhelming numbers should be standard for every SWAT encounter. If your guys could score 7 hits, either there wasn't enough negative modifiers, or they used a large edge (and thus deserve their success.) If the runners are "smart" and refuse to be pinned down where SWAT can come down on them like a ton of bricks, then SWAT doesn't go in -- they fall back to the SW and send in drones and other high-threat but easy to replace equipment (spirits, if possible.)

It's also worth pointing out that with the rules in arsenal, adding a biomonitor and auto-injector (rating 6 stim) to a SWAT armor suit is very, very cheap.
samuelbeckett
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 12 2008, 05:13 PM) *
The OP mentioned the shooter was rolling 20 dice. That's 5-7 hits on average for that dice pool. 12p is 5p base + 7 hits, so his math is fine.


His math is fine assuming the person being shot at got no successes on his Reaction at all (and didn't bother to interrupt Full Defense, and didn't take advantage of anything that could reduce the attacker die pool etc.)
Mr. Unpronounceable
20 dice.

Human unmodified maximum (i.e. Olympic target shooting under ideal conditions) is 12 dice, and he's shooting with 50% more than that.

Why shouldn't it at least KO the target?

Of course, as stated, proper tactics - lights out, flashbangs & smoke used, cover taken, he'd be rolling a LOT less than 20 dice.
Jhaiisiin
Oh, I realize that. They also mentioned poor/no dodge and such. It's easily inferred from the example (given he stated in the open) that there were few if any modifiers affecting the runner. In a toe to toe, open field fight, this works as is. But it's not realistic for SR.

More likely, SWAT rolls up just as the runner is exiting the building. It's dark, the swat team is a good 10m away (reasonable deploy distance) and the Runner is moving quickly to get out and away. The runner is without cover and possibly wounded, depending on what happened inside, but as SWAT exits their armored van, they do so in a covering formation to help insure survivability.

Runner comes away with penalties for range, lighting, running and possibly wound mods.

SWAT gets bonuses from cover (partial or good, depending on the team member)

That's a bit more realistic, and still not as effective as it could be for the SWAT guys. With proper mods, the SWAT team is going to be taking fewer shots, and many of them won't be doing more than a scratch here or there, even on the stun track.
Blade
QUOTE (Feshy @ Mar 12 2008, 06:18 PM) *
The thing that makes SWAT dangerous isn't the SW (special weapons) it's the AT (and tactics!) Flashbangs, firing from cover, smoke, thermal smoke, distractions, and overwhelming numbers should be standard for every SWAT encounter.


Exactly. Play the SWAT 3 or 4 video game... From a terrorist standpoint it should be something like:
* The locked door suddenly burst open
* There's a bright flash and a loud bang
* I'm dead (if my weapon was towards them) or, after recovering from the flashbang, I've got 2 to 5 guys with big guns and heavy armor around me yelling to me to get drop my gun.

It should be a bit different out in the street, but I guess they've got tactics for situations like this.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Mar 12 2008, 12:26 PM) *
Human unmodified maximum (i.e. Olympic target shooting under ideal conditions) is 12 dice, and he's shooting with 50% more than that.

Just to nitpick, a human with exceptional attribute (7) and aptitude (7) with a specialization in the weapon (+2) rolls 16 dice, assuming he isn't using a laser sight.
Nitpick aside, I still completely agree with you. smile.gif
CrystalBlue
I guess this needs much more explination...

First combat turn, the rigger providing overwatch over the building pulled back his drones and got the big ones ready and turned on. Meanwhile, the van with the SWAT team had stopped and the two NPC's in the back opened the doors. Their turns were to take cover behind the van and ready inturrupt attacks.

PC's turns, they all focused on one guy, who happened to have been the driver, while the uber-PC in question made her way across the street. In the same turn, she shot twice at the passanger NPC that got out and was taking cover. That was around 7 and 6 hits. I dodge but can only push those two numbers down to 5 and 3. Also, remember that this person, the turn before, had been taking aim. So the first shot was a called shot. She was also using Gel rounds. The damage of the pistol was 5p. With gel rounds, it goes up by, I think, 2. That's 7s. Then, it's a called shot, so that's 11s. Add in the net hits, and that's 16s. I take my impact armor, increase it, and I get 16 impact armor. I then add my body and roll 22 dice. I get 7 hits. Against a 16s weapon, I just took 9s. The next shot will hit and I can't soak it all, so I go down. I believe I overflowed stun into physical and ended up with 10s and 3p damage. Some nice internal bleeding with that shot. Yay.

And that's not even talking about everyone else's turns, which didn't matter much. This is all still the first combat turn. The PC in question still had 3 more initiative passes before they were done, in which they would have taken out another of the NPC's before the rigger got a chance to pull out his combat drones. Thankfully, I did piss off the hacker of the group when he tried to mess around with the rigger, who happened to be a technomancer with serious skills. Almost blew his ass away too...around 6 or 7 points of bio-feedback.

I think that's a clearer picture of what happened...trust me, I didn't mean for the run to go this way, it's just that one PC had their thinking cap on and managed to find a loophole in my planning. frown.gif
kzt
It's a TEAM, not three guys. The cops don't play fair. You have 12 or more SWAT guys, not 3. Plus airborne fire support, etc.

You made it a pushover, and they pushed.
Stahlseele
she's a street sam or pistolero adept . . she's MEANT to do that much damage O.o
it's the same as with the Troll-Tank taking on a PAC Round and still being upright with not too much trouble and the mage taking out whole squads with a stun-ball . . if you nerf that aspect, you gotta stay fair and nerf everything else too and make the game mcuh more deadly *g*
Spike
In addition to not having nearly enough people there to qualify as a 'SWAT' response, they also would not have been piling out of their van right as the runners were on their position, not without a total FUBAR somewhere in the chain of command.

Call it a GM tactical foulup: these guys make their money dealing with well armed violent people. THey KNOW they're most vulnerable while deploying, so they deploy where it's safe and move to the site before you know they are there. They also know to bring the numbers.

There is a reason you see long seiges on the news when HRT teams/swat/whomever is called to deal with hostages, its safer and more effective to lock down the scene in a controlled fashion and wait for the other guy to screw up and leave an opening or surrender. Once he leaves the opening, that's when the assault happens.

You want to put the pressure on the party with teams like this? Force them to chose between assaulting a vastly superior (numbers and equipment anyway) force in an entrenched position OR waiting until they either think of a clever escape plan OR get assaulted, generally where/when they least expect it.

Think about the end of The Professional. If Mathilda hadn't deliberately screwed up the knock Leon probably would have been screwed, as it was all he could do was hold the apartment long enough to get mathilda out while the SWAT guys brought up more gear.

THAT is how swat vs runner should play out.

Or at least, in a grimmer, professional 'realistic' sort of way. For total 'action movie' they should be rappelling through skylights with submachine guns blazing. Again with the numbers, and at least at first, with the surprise.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Mar 12 2008, 01:47 PM) *
I guess this needs much more explination...

First combat turn, the rigger providing overwatch over the building pulled back his drones and got the big ones ready and turned on. Meanwhile, the van with the SWAT team had stopped and the two NPC's in the back opened the doors. Their turns were to take cover behind the van and ready inturrupt attacks.


If you have a chance, watch Dallas SWAT or the other shows on cable, or read up on the older edition sourcebooks about LS's HRT teams. As what Spike and kzt already said. You have too few guys, there'll be more than one armored vehicle that would pull up to respond. Plus, the team would usually make planning/surveillance before initiating an assault. In the srun world that means lots of drones, not just surveillance drones, I can see them also pulling in the armed drones also to augment a SWAT team.

A regular van that the runners managed to take out the driver with pistols? That's unlikely especially if the SWAT knows they're going against runners, likely they'd use heavier vehicles with armored windows/slits. Good luck taking out the driver with pistols especially in the srun world, the driver doesn't even need to be in the driver seat, it may just be rigged from the back of the van or even remotely if need be. Right before the vehicles make their approach/entry, the drones should be used to throw the runners off guard in the scenario you described when they're out in the open. The drones using flash/smoke grenades, bright spotlights and lots of noise to throw them off guard as the vehicles pull up and the SWAT team piles out using the vehicle as cover and aiming their weapons at the runners.
MaxHunter
The players did a fine job. The SWAT didn't. Learn and improve.

One advice is that the answer to these situations is not dice escalation, usually it's situation, tactics and numbers which get the upper hand.

Isn't it always who gets the surprise the one who ends up winning?

Cheers,

Max
cREbralFIX
Let's look at the reality of handgun combat and then look at the game.

Ballistic armor is great, but has limitations. Armor doesn't cover the entire body and soft armor can be defeated by multiple hits in a small area.

In reality based gun training, the forearm and hands are hit frequently, as are legs. We call these "peripheral hits" and they are quite damaging. Even though they're not perfect heart or brain shots, any hit is bad for him. Even a hand hit is going to cost $20k in surgery and rehabilitation...not to mention the immediate effects of blood loss. Don't discount additional damage if it passes through the hand and hits another part of the body.

The only real defense against guns is movement. Movement first, attack second! Explosive movement at the correct angle is required in order to dodge their aim. Even then, all you really get is a very short amount of time before their reactions catch up. You literally have to force them into reactive mode and get within their OODA loop (Observe Orient Decide Act). However, you will need to attack during this very short time frame and place rounds on target.

In handgun confrontations, the range is generally very, very short. This makes for easier hits. The cost, though, is the tempo of the encounter is increased. There probably won't not be time to use the sights; this is shown in police video after police video, as well as variety of historical sources. Extending fully is not even recommended since the weapon could be within grabbing range. This puts us in a situation where we'll have to rapidly change our location (and possibly height in a tight space) and fire as quickly as possible without much aiming (usually surrounding the gun with "meat" and pulling the trigger).

Now, gamewise, let's look at what happened. A trained shooter reacted rapidly and got his shots off. His target was knocked out. This is fine because THERE IS NOT JUST ONE SWAT OPERATOR. The shadow runner is in a losing game because the rest of the team will take him out. Given the nature of armor, I really don't see any problems with this result. It keeps people on their toes and prevents them from running through waves of bullets.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Mar 12 2008, 12:47 PM) *
The damage of the pistol was 5p. With gel rounds, it goes up by, I think, 2. That's 7s. Then, it's a called shot, so that's 11s. Add in the net hits, and that's 16s. I take my impact armor, increase it, and I get 16 impact armor. I then add my body and roll 22 dice. I get 7 hits. Against a 16s weapon, I just took 9s. The next shot will hit and I can't soak it all, so I go down. I believe I overflowed stun into physical and ended up with 10s and 3p damage. Some nice internal bleeding with that shot. Yay.


This isn't anything in rules, or even defined. But he was already using Gel Rounds which deal stun damage, so since physical damage that doesn't do more than the armor does stun. Wouldn't Stun damage that didn't overflow the armor deal no damage? Like I said there's no rule, but Gel Rounds would be extremely dangerous if this weren't the case.

I always hit the same track, so no worry of it switching tracks due to armor penetration.
The track it is hitting (stun), is usually considerably smaller on most combat participants.
I get +2 DV for +2 AP (+2 DV will usually take +6 AP to resist).

I'd say if your using Gel Rounds, and you fail to penetrate armor, you're going to deal no damage. Think will have to add this house rule.
Stahlseele
as an aside, i don't really see what the fuss is all about . . she was using Gel-Rounds, so she was planning on stunning people ANYWAY . . if this had happened with APDS, THEN i would start asking questions . .
And Gel does not penetrate anything . . you could be buck naked without any kind of cyber/bio/magical armor and be shot with gel ammo and still not bleed . . well, if your skin does not break from the impact anyway . .
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 12 2008, 02:38 PM) *
as an aside, i don't really see what the fuss is all about . . she was using Gel-Rounds, so she was planning on stunning people ANYWAY . . if this had happened with APDS, THEN i would start asking questions . .
And Gel does not penetrate anything . . you could be buck naked without any kind of cyber/bio/magical armor and be shot with gel ammo and still not bleed . . well, if your skin does not break from the impact anyway . .


Nobody's mentioning anything about the Gel-Rounds. I had just noticed that damage that does physical turns to stun when it fails to exceed the armor, while stun doesn't matter at all what the armor rating is.
Stahlseele
must have misread that somehwere . . could have sworn there was something written about gel-rounds <.< . .
Whipstitch
Ah, yeah. I didn't notice that he said gel rounds. Fun Fact: The +2DV for gel round modifier was nerfed over a year ago, people! Checking the errata page every couple years is good for you.

As far as the rest of it is concerned, an overflowed Stun track leads to Physical damage unless specified otherwise. You can kill someone by overdoing it with gel rounds just like you can (eventually) beat someone to death with your puny 2S fists.
Nightwalker450
Only finding the +2 AP change to Gel Rounds. I'm not seeing anything else in the errata changing that. And if your objective is to take them out of the fight, then I guess gel rounds are the way to go. You can always shoot 'em after they're down if you do prefer them dead.

Again to reiterate the advantages:
+2 DV needs 6 more dice to counter, AP for gel is only +2
Will always hit the stun track, no bouncing back and forth due to armor rating
Impact armor is usually a few points lower anyways
Stun track is usually lower on heavier combatants

This is why I propose that a stun damage object that fails to beat the armor rating should do no damage. If physical downscales to stun, then stun should downscale to 0. Or cut the stun damage in half. It doesn't specially solve this persons problem they could use EX-EX and the results would of been quite similar, but the Gel Round are more powerful here.
Whipstitch
The errata says to replace these lines:
QUOTE
Gel rounds add +2 DV but have an AP of +2 against armor. Gel rounds inflict Stun damage and are resisted with Impact armor.


With this line:
QUOTE
Gel rounds inflict Stun damage and are resisted with Impact armor (AP +2).


The damage bonus was excised. The corrected damage value modifier is also present in the compiled tables section of Arsenal.
kzt
Ever noticed a pepsi or coke delivery truck, with the roll-up doors on the side? Consider the roll up door replaced by heavy armor the drops down to from a ramp for the guys standing inside in environmentally sealed milspec armor, the truck piloted from an armored pod. With the little bays over the wheels housing combat drone with HMGs and GLs. And the rutheranium polymers that stop saying Coke and start saying police right before the doors go down.
Riley37
Seems to me that a tradeoff of the described SWAT tactics of sending surveillance drones, then deploying outside area of operations, then moving in under cover of smoke... means that if the first SWAT vehicle reaches the block just as the runner is leaving, then the runner has several turns in which to leave before the SWAT team arrives on foot, while they're still doing the preparatory steps such as sending drones and getting vehicles in position to deploy teams.

Makes sense to me: more willing to risk a runner escaping, than willing to risk casualties.
Spike
Guess it depends on how fast you let runners do their runs.

Seriously: If they are out the door as the operators are arriving, then they pretty much get a chance to escape scot free unless they are doing a running gun fight sort of escape (then the cordon moves with them as it tightens).

But that's some fast moving. The Survillence drones can be on site within, say, 30 seconds from the first alarm, especially given the nature of contract work. The 'first wave' of drones are pretty much already on site and just have to be accessed. Once you are under surveillance, assuming you don't have it all figured out and accounted for in advance, then the SWAT guys get to pick where they want to take you down and move from there.

Realistically, of course.

Realistically, once you have that level of attention you're fonged. But no one wants to play that way... frown.gif
GryMor
The low numbers and poor tactics defeated the SWAT team, but, their armor did it's job as they lived without significant wounds. The point of SWAT armor is strategic and psychological more than keeping them on their feet after taking fire. On the psychological level, it allows the SWAT team members to routinely put themselves in harms way without too much fear. On the strategic level, it means an organization can routinely USE the SWAT team in dangerous situations while not expecting significant attrition from casualties even if they got shot.

It also tends to cut down on the berserker suicide charge, that can result from seeing your brothers going down in a hail of bullets. No need to panic, he probably just had the wind knocked out of him, raise your gun, aim and take down the perp.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Zak @ Mar 12 2008, 08:51 AM) *
Your numbers are kind of unrealistic. 7 net hits is alot. I don't think you will ever see that in a 'real' SR4 combat situation.

...with my dice I do. More often than not , particularly when I'm rolling for my Matrix Specialist I usually wind up with an average of 6 - 8 hits out of a DP of 12. In the last two sessions, The Short one was getting 6 - 7 on most of her combat tests. That was giving her a net DV of 12 - 13 with her Warhawks (EXEX).

...and no, the dice are not weighted. Really they aren't grinbig.gif
Method
Freakish dice rolls aside, you need to think about the dice pools in your game. If you are ok with 20+ DPs than you should expect to see 5-7 hits every time the PC rolls. If you don't like that (or it doesn't fit your vision of how things should work) then the simplest answer is to talk to your players and all agree to play with lower DPs, at least at first. That tends to balance things quite nicely.

EDIT: and don't forget the combat modifiers (as so many others have stated)...
kzt
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 12 2008, 08:57 PM) *
Freakish dice rolls aside, you need to think about the dice pools in your game. If you are ok with 20+ DPs than you should expect to see 5-7 hits every time the PC rolls.


The players should be aware that if they have 20 dice that means the guys shooting at them may have 20 dice. And Alphas on burst fire with APDS and 7 successes HURT.
Daier Mune
you're telling me the SWAT officers didn't have Platelet Factories and Trauma Dampers? or Biomonitors hooked up to Stimpatch autoinjectors?
Whipstitch
I doubt they would have helped that much since an autoinjected stimpatchs can't keep you conscious anymore on its own.
Zak
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Mar 12 2008, 06:27 PM) *
...with my dice I do. More often than not , particularly when I'm rolling for my Matrix Specialist I usually wind up with an average of 6 - 8 hits out of a DP of 12. In the last two sessions, The Short one was getting 6 - 7 on most of her combat tests. That was giving her a net DV of 12 - 13 with her Warhawks (EXEX).

...and no, the dice are not weighted. Really they aren't grinbig.gif



Yea I know that phenomenon. It only happens when I'm the GM though. My players hate those spirits winning on normal summoning tests biggrin.gif
As soon as I'm playing I'm happy to get 1 success out of 5 dice. frown.gif
Drogos
I had a buddy who rolled great...but only for other people. When we played, we always made him roll for us and then pointed and laughed when the he rolled for himsalf and always glitched as the best outcome. I think it may be why he doesn't play anymore frown.gif
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Daier Mune @ Mar 13 2008, 04:54 AM) *
you're telling me the SWAT officers didn't have Platelet Factories and Trauma Dampers? or Biomonitors hooked up to Stimpatch autoinjectors?


Stimpatches don't do jack anymore - they merely remove the dicepool penalty for (rating) stun boxes filled...if you're already KO'd - you stay KO'd.
Nightwalker450
I'd like to state a ridiculous roll that happened in one of our games. This was a run where there was a street race, and our job was to get one of the racers caught by the local cops. Since this would affect the outcome of the race we decided to place a group bet on the race as well. To determine the winner of the race the GM decided we would put together everybody's edge into a single pool and roll it. It counts as edge so 6's explode. Out of 12 dice our group had for edge, we got 18 hits. That has got to be the craziest edge roll I have ever seen. Some of those dice were rolled 4 or 5 times before they stopped coming up 6's.

Yeah we got a nice bonus on that run biggrin.gif

Edit: On the Gel Round, I didn't have books so was just looking at the errata and faq. Thanks for straigtening me out on that. Though I'll prob still house rule the stun to nothing when it fails to outdo armor, or at the least it does only half damage just so it has a scale down factor like physical does.
Larme
I'm not sure why stun damage should be less effective againsit armor than physical. A gel round is the same as a bullet that doesn't penetrate armor -- it goes the same speed and has similar mass, so it should strike with the same force. The only difference is that the bullet could in some cases punch through armor but a gel round never can. If you make the rule you're describing, your players will just quit using gel rounds. They will switch to stick-n-shock, and if you think that the players' offense is too high as it is, stick-n-shock will give you a migraine nyahnyah.gif
Kyoto Kid
...Nightwalker450: yeah that's up there with my Cajun Boxer Hurricane Hannah rolling a net 21 DV on her punch one time adding her edge (4) dice to the test. That was a total of 14 hits. The worse thing for her opponent, she had Penetrating Strike 3 for a -3AP. That's up there with light missile ordinance. eek.gif
Spike
Actually, Gel rounds would have significantly less mass and would shed velocity much faster. Presumably they also tend to expend in flight or are generally less aerodynamic... all with the intent of makign them far less likely to penetrate anything, but also making armor much more effective overall.

If they were as dense and aerodynamic as bullets, they'd be just as penatrive, and therefor just as lethal. Not cool for a less than lethal munition

Just sayin'
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