:nuyen: The Price is Right! :nuyen:, How much is enough? Options

[swirler]

What do you go by for offers to the group for runs? Is there a decent guideline? Basically how much should the Johnson offer them (and max-out to) on a "generic " run (by type). Also how much would you make accessible during the run? Snatch and grab on site kinda stuff.


on a side note
I know I've been asking a lot of questions lately but I'm trying to get myself ready to run SR4 and I haven't played it since SR2. I'm just trying to bring the best SR experience to the group I can. Only one of the players has played any SR and that was very little during 3rd. No ones new to RPing, just Shadowrun.

[Ryu]

Maybe this will help. I was quite satisfied with the answers:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry621695

[imperialus]

I posted this a while back...

Keep in mind I use street cred somewhat differently.

I think the best rule of thumb (that's come up before) for starting runners at least is to give them enough money per month that it's not worth it for them to steal a Ford Americar/Murcury Comet once a week and sell it on the black market.

If you want an actual number I'd say for a starting team 5-6K per month each. Each time the groups street cred goes up by one double the amount they make.

In planning out a teams advancement here is the formula I would use.

CODE

Street Cred      Pay/month      Karma/Month
                   (x1000)
    0                 5-6            10
    1                10-12           20
    2                20-24           25
    3                40-48           30
    4                80-96           35
    5               160-192          40
    6               320-384          45

How long a team stays at a given street cred "level" is up to you. Street cred of 6 really only belongs to the gods of the shadow scene. These are the folks that Harlaquin has on speed dial when he needs to get some shit done. They're on a first name basis with Fastjack and Damian Knight owes them "favors". I can't ever see a campaign of mine reaching that level but it does allow for it.

Most importantly regardless of what "level" you base the campaign at this seems to keep the sams and riggers power level roughly consistent with adepts mages and other karma hogs. If you see one group pulling ahead of the other it is fairly easy to correct it within the framework by offering more nuyen.gif and less Karma or the other way around. It's a guide not hard and fast rules but I've found it useful.

If you care I put a coles notes version of my Street Cred system in the spoiler tags

[ Spoiler ]

well basically the difference is that street cred is something that I award to players. It works somewhat like edge but refreshes far more rarely. In line with the BBB it consists of their "rep" within the shadow scene and underworld in general. For example someone with a street cred of zero but with a run or two under their belt is still considered a greenhorn by just about everyone. Really only their contacts even know who they are.

Street cred is awarded based on performance, or at least perceived performance by a team. Everyone on the team has the same street cred and it can go up or down (even into negative numbers) based on how their runs go.

the scale basically looks like this

-3 Pariah. You've committed a screw up that is truly aw inspiring. People know you, but they also know that powerful people will pay good cash for your head on a plate. Leaving the country seems like a good idea.
-2 Write-Off. You've screwed up big time. Even your fixer is unlikely to return your calls. People with means to do so want you dead. Chances are skipping town is your best bet
-1 Fuckup. Johnsons are reluctant to work with you, jobs are going to suck and generally be few and far between. Damage control is an order.
0 No rep, You're either a relative unknown just starting out or you've done something to tick some people off. Nothing that can't be fixed but you'd probably want to get on that before things get worse.
1 Streetsmart. Johnson’s and fixers are starting to take notice. You've at least proved that you won't completely fuck up jobs.
2 ShadowPunk. It's starting to look like there is something to you. You're a regular team in your fixers stable and he knows you can be trusted to be discreet and efficient. The smaller streetgangs know that it's not worth their time or broken bones to screw with you.
3 ShadowRunner. You’re a pro. The jobs come fast and furious and you likely spend most of your time working for favorite Johnson’s. You’re pretty well known locally and for the most part well liked.
4 Veteran. By now the Johnson’s are competing with each other to hire you. You can’t exactly write your own paycheque but you’re defiantly moving into a sellers market. Everyone but the major crime syndicates knows you’re not someone to be trifled with. You probably have dirt on or favors owed from some fairly important figures though not likely anyone with much influence beyond the metroplex area.
5 Prime Runner. You’re top of the heap now. Probably one of the best runners in Seattle. Some people are even starting to wonder why you haven’t retired. Yakuza Oyuban and Mafia dons (not to mention some important corporate figures) are in your pocket.
6 ShadowGod. Fastjack, Hatchetman, Captain Chaos, You. Pretty much that simple.

Now as for how it works mechanically things are a bit fuzzier. First of all you can at any time add your street cred to provide a bonus to a die roll just like edge. It only applies to social tests with appropriate underworld figures. You can also lower the groups street cred permanently (or at least until you earn it back) to pull in favors with underworld figures and do stuff like get something that is otherwise beyond your reach, make some evidence or witnesses “disappear�, ect. What exactly you can get from this depends on your street cred level. With a street cred of two you might be able to get a tricked out van with armour, a turbocharged engine ect. A street cred of five might net you a T-bird. Pulling in these favors lowers your rep though, if it doesn’t happen often your cred usually bounces right back, but if you’re calling in favors left right and center people start to look at you as a mooch.

It’s more art than science but it works for me.

[swirler]

very cool!

[Cthulhudreams]

I just try and make sure everyone has the same lifestyle, then just simply target payouts to be sufficent to cover their lifestyle, cover costs, and give them something extra (whatever it takes to keep the mundanes on the same page as the awakened characters ) per runner per month. So if my guys do one run that takes two weeks per month and if they get 10 karma and live high lifestyles, a run has to pay

10k (lifestyle) + 3k (costs) + the X factor = 17k for a two week run of which they get one once per month.

Lower lifestlyes and more frequent runs pay less obviously, say

500 (lifestyle) + 300 (costs) + The X factor = 3k for a one week run of which they get 4 a month.

The X factor has to stay relatively constant to keep the mundanes and mages on the same page (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

@Imperialus

Very nice I like it *steal* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

WMS

[Synner667]

Wasn't the guideline in one of the SR rulebooks to pay the character's about their Lifestyle cost ??

Tho, once character's have paid their lifestyle, replaced gear, maintained contacts, etc there's never enough money left.

[Rasumichin]

Wasn't the guideline in one of the SR rulebooks to pay the character's about their Lifestyle cost ??

Tho, once character's have paid their lifestyle, replaced gear, maintained contacts, etc there's never enough money left.

In fact, it gets even worse.
The BBB suggests that each group member should earn the costs of the average lifestyle of the group.
Besides the obvious problem of not being able to pay for expenses, which you have already mentioned, this requires all group members to have the same lifestyle, which might be undesirable from a roleplaying point of view, as runner teams can likely include vastly different people with absurdely gapping costs of living.

Just imagine a team consisting of a street shaman (voluntarily leading a squatter lifestyle to be closer to his rat mentor), an ork sam from the barrens (low lifestyle), a hacker with a middle lifestyle and an upper-class face (high lifestyle).
That would average a payment of 4300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , leading to constant indebtment for two team members while the sam and moreso the shaman enjoy a constant excess of money.

The face might quickly urge to conduct three runs a month, which would make carefull preparation as well as recovery from severe injuries and exercise of downtime projects difficult, if not impossible.


Moreover, it does not make any sense at all to base what the Johnson is willing to pay upon the needs of the runners when it is in fact determined by corporate interest.

Under this angle, it is utterly necessary to make shadowrunning more profitable than other forms of professional crime to keep attracting qualified personell.


From a game-mechanics point of view, we are faced with the problem of two different ressources for character improvement, one being karma, the other (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .
Various "classes" require different amounts of each, but for samurai, riggers and, to lesser extend, hackers, an influx of excess payment is absolutely desirable to allow for improvement of their associated "class features" as drones, ware and programms.

Taking the latter two points into consideration, i strongly suggest considering lucrative donations for the team, probably bringing back the old optional "cash for karma" rules.

Finetuning the karma:cash-ratio still proves difficult.
Synner recently suggested 4-6 karma and around 15K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per run, which appears reasonable to me.
However, i like Imperialus' suggestion of basing payment on street cred.
I'll look closer into that.

Furthermore, i have always encouraged my players to look for additional means of income, including that i never tried to clamp down on looting, as long at it was done with the required precautions for reselling illegal items.
At times, i also built campaigns around promising sideprojects of the PCs, such as starting gangs of their own.

[nezumi]

Initially I offered my group numbers strictly 'by the book', generally $20k-$50k per person per month, sometimes going as low as $10k or as high as $60k. But eventually I realized that most groups (this is SR3, keep in mind) upgrade plenty of karma-based stuff, but never buy a new vehicle or piece of ware. So now I just pay the group whatever I think their particular product is worth. Currently they've initiated a bidding war over a piece of experimental equipment and it's up to about $550k for the group (group of 7), plus a few hundred kay more selling data on the equipment. The next run will probably be $20k again.

[Blade]

There's never enough nuyens!

On a more serious note, I used to give low payments, explaining it by saying that there were a lot of wanabee runners, not too many jobs and that anyway runners can't get back to "normal" life.

I think I'll change a bit with my next campaign, with both common low-paid jobs and special high-pay/high-risk job. What I hope to get through, though, is that when you pull-off a high pay job, you spend half the pay living in luxury for the next 10 days. You might very well lose all your money or your life during your next run (if not before), so you'd better spend it while you can.

[Ryu]

There is no right price. But how much you give out invariably shapes the campaign.

One GM I played under used low payouts to force a gritty gameplay on a group that wanted to move up in power. Don´t accidentially be that GM. Starting at 15k¥ per simple run is not a bad idea. We play somewhat higher, but spending money on luxury goes easy for our chars. YMMV.

[KurenaiYami]

I give my current group about 21k per run, but they can only find a job every other month or so, even with their 6/6 Fixers. Mostly because...they have no hacker...or...stealth skills...or perception...

...They pretty much just blow crap up, offensively or defensively. Bodyguard jobs, for the most part. Combat/Field Control Mage, Street Samurai, Physical Adept, and a "Medic," which is just an adept with a lot of skill in First Aid and some insane amount of dice to resist damage.

In any case, yeah, that 10.5k a month seems to keep them happy enough. I wonder what they end up having after expenses...