SIN, Is it a sin to be without? Options

[nathanross]

Basically anything that crooked cops could get away with in an authoritarian environment with little to no transparency/accountability, that's what LS should be getting away with regularly. To anyone without a SIN.

Crooked cops probably don't want much to do with SINless since their main motivator is money, and SINless are, on average, broke.

On deportation, they could summarily deport you to wherever they want, but the place they bring you will probably be PISSED. Neighboring nations aren't happy when UCAS dumps trash onto them, whether actual refuse or human garbage... If UCAS were dumb enough to try it, the other nation would probably just kick you back into UCAS.

"Deportation Basketball! The new game that's got all of America rounding up their SINless population. The game devised by Pacifist International is a proposed outlet and alternative method of conflict resolution between nations. How many SINless can you successfully deport to your neighboring nations without them realizing? For a one week period, nations are allowed to shuffle around their SINless population and hopefully drop them on neighboring territory. The nation that has the most SINless left outside their borders at the end of game is awarded very favorable trade tariffs for the next year. The Tir is feeling very good about their showing this year, and the UCAS has already ordered massive numbers of civilian transport from Ares, who have agreed to assist Seattle with Knight Errant forces in their struggle to move the Redmond barrens population. Now on to you Pam!"

[kzt]

click "Attention everyone. You'll notice that each of you are wearing a parachute. If you reach up over your left shoulder you'll find a metal clip there. In a minute I'm going to unlock all your restraints and you should strongly consider standing up and hooking that clip to the cables that run along the long axis of the cabin. Whether you do or not, a few minutes later we'll open the back door and go into a vertical climb. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed your flight today and hope that you'll enjoy your new country." click

[BRodda]

Okay, now, this is something that was never really an issue for the group in SR3 (we never had a fake SIN), but seems to be necessary in SR4. Is this really the case?

The fluff has always mentioned that an absurdly large portion of the populace is SINless, but that just means they aren't a citizen and law enforcement can do whatever they want to them if they commit a crime. However, is not having a SIN a crime in itself? What they hell happens to all the poor bastards without one? What will Lone Star really do to you if you are walking through Downtown Seattle (or some A neighborhood) without a SIN? Put you up for the night and warn you? Deport you to the barrens?

First thing, there are almost no forced SINless people in SR4. After the crash ANYONE who wanted a SIN could get one. However that means that very few people have an excuse NOT to have a SIN. It might have been a pain in the ass, but even a brokedown troll could get one if they wanted one. It might still be easy to get a legitimate SIN if you really needed one.

And if you get caught without a SIN? They give you one; a criminal SIN. Can't be used for much, but it means they now have you on record for whatever else that they want to do to you. So they would give you a criminal SIN and a fine for being SINless on top of what ever else you were doing when you got caught.

PG 38 BBB

Be careful, though—if the cops arrest you and you don’t
have a SIN (or you have one that doesn’t match up), they’ll assign
you a “criminal SIN,� which has significantly fewer rights
and privileges than a regular one.

[nathanross]

First thing, there are almost no forced SINless people in SR4. After the crash ANYONE who wanted a SIN could get one. However that means that very few people have an excuse NOT to have a SIN. It might have been a pain in the ass, but even a brokedown troll could get one if they wanted one. It might still be easy to get a legitimate SIN if you really needed one.

And if you get caught without a SIN? They give you one; a criminal SIN. Can't be used for much, but it means they now have you on record for whatever else that they want to do to you. So they would give you a criminal SIN and a fine for being SINless on top of what ever else you were doing when you got caught.

I can see the reason behind your argument, but for some reason I really don't like the SR that creates. An SR without SINless just seems scary! Does anyone else agree with this point of view? Everyone has a SIN, just those who would be SINless have Criminal SINs. Even after the crash, not everyone went to get a SIN. I could have sworn that more people were lost than were registered for new SINs. Also, do you now mean to say that Law Enforcement has penetrated the holy sanctuary of shadows: Redmond and Puyallup?

I'd like to hear other opinions on this.

[Fortune]

After the Crash, anyone could get a SIN ... if they could provide proof that they were who they said they were, if not also proof of employment and/or residence, etc, etc.

For the majority of the victims of the Crash, this might pose only a few problems, but for those already SINless, and the unlucky not-so-few who were royally screwed by the Crash, this might well prove to be an insurmountable task.

[BRodda]

I can see the reason behind your argument, but for some reason I really don't like the SR that creates. An SR without SINless just seems scary! Does anyone else agree with this point of view? Everyone has a SIN, just those who would be SINless have Criminal SINs. Even after the crash, not everyone went to get a SIN. I could have sworn that more people were lost than were registered for new SINs. Also, do you now mean to say that Law Enforcement has penetrated the holy sanctuary of shadows: Redmond and Puyallup?

I'd like to hear other opinions on this.

Oh, there are tons of SINless, but it's not because "The Man" is keeping them down. Its because its a pain, they don't really need one, there are things in their past that they really want to avoid, people they want to avoid, hell they just don't trust the government or corporations. If your already getting paid under the table what the hell do you want a SIN and have to pay taxes for?

As for there being more people now without a SIN then before, I believe that. However it's not because they are victims of the system. It's because they choose to drop out of the systems.

And no LS doesn't go there, but some places have KE and other organizations guarding their enclaves.

[DocTaotsu]

I agree that there are plenty of SINless because there is an incredible number of homeless. But I think virtually anyone with a job has a SIN, even if they live in the Barrens. I look to modern day favalla's(sp?) in Brazil. Those areas are completely off the grid, leeching water, sanitation, etc wherever they can get it. Still, vast numbers of people who live there commute down into the city everyday to fill blue collar jobs like maids and cab drivers. They have SIN's but they live int eh Barrens.

[Heath Robinson]

If you're SINless, there won't be any immigration hearing, or any court appearance at all. You don't have the right to a trial at all, so why would they bring you to court?

On deportation, they could summarily deport you to wherever they want, but the place they bring you will probably be PISSED. Neighboring nations aren't happy when UCAS dumps trash onto them, whether actual refuse or human garbage... If UCAS were dumb enough to try it, the other nation would probably just kick you back into UCAS.

Since no official system recognizes that a SINless person is missing, they could do what they want. They could let you go after confiscating your contraband, they could bring you to a bloodsport arena and make you win your freedom in the ring, they could sell you to a bunraku parlor, or sell your body to tanamous... The latter few would probably be uncommon, because there is at least some internal affairs policing at the Star, I assume. But the point is, there's no "proof" or legal process, just a summary decision of what to do with the dead to rights SINless scum.

Yep. Doubly so on the neighbours being pissed. Whilst the imagery I used might not have been conducive to the conclusion you've come to I've been agreeing with this close to all along. I don't remember explicitly stating that the courts would get involved. The legal system does, after all, include enforcement. It is, however, generally true that bureaucracies attempt rationalisation of their activities even if in absence of important information and would therefore end up with the conclusion that the SINless are effectively on par with illegal immigrants and would deport them to wherever would be least annoyed by having them.

The main thing is that it's a pain, so these kinds of measures would only be used if they are a significant pest to the effective working of the country or city. If a certain part of the barrens is a hotbed of illegal activity performed by the SINless that seeps into your city and disrupts law and order, you should round them up and deport them to whomever will want them - just so long as they aren't bothering you anymore. Given that they're equated in policy to illegal immigrants and squatters you can even publicise that you're rounding them up as a public relations scheme, miscategorising them and mentioning that they were the cause of much unrest; you get to look like big damn heroes and wageslave John will cheer you on.


As for DocTaotsu's point; they'll probably be supported by or directly employed by organised crime. It's likely that the infrastructure of the barrens is entirely provided by the various criminal organisations as an earner. Their various front companies might own some properties in the low-security zones in the city where SINless barrens residents commute to for work, but a lot of the core services that would be provided by the government would end up in the hands of large criminal organisations because they have the scale and resources to control them and provide for the needs of the barrens population efficiently (cheaply, but of course the residents will pay quite a bit for it). When your employer doesn't care that you don't have a SIN, you needn't get one.

[Larme]

Crooked cops probably don't want much to do with SINless since their main motivator is money, and SINless are, on average, broke.


"Deportation Basketball! The new game that's got all of America rounding up their SINless population. The game devised by Pacifist International is a proposed outlet and alternative method of conflict resolution between nations. How many SINless can you successfully deport to your neighboring nations without them realizing? For a one week period, nations are allowed to shuffle around their SINless population and hopefully drop them on neighboring territory. The nation that has the most SINless left outside their borders at the end of game is awarded very favorable trade tariffs for the next year. The Tir is feeling very good about their showing this year, and the UCAS has already ordered massive numbers of civilian transport from Ares, who have agreed to assist Seattle with Knight Errant forces in their struggle to move the Redmond barrens population. Now on to you Pam!"

"This year, in a rare move, the CAS has begun to delete the SINs of certain disfavored citizens. "It's a calculated risk," said Joe-Bob Billy Sutton, the Secretary of Racial Purity at a recent press conference. "Iff'n we can round up all them trogs 'n such 'n get 'em outta the country, we'll win fer sure. But we'll hafta move quick, otherwise it'll bite us in the ass like a junebug on Tuesday." Several anti-metahuman groups have announced their support for the strategy, while a number of metahuman rights organizations have denounced it in strong terms. Rumors abound of the organizations hiring mercenaries to attempt to both foil and protect the plan. Many commentators have prophesied riots on a scale not seen since the 20's, as well. "It's going to be a bloodbath," said Arnold Appleback, the chief of the Houston Lonestar franchise. "I might finally blow my brains out like I've been planning, so I won't have to deal with it."

[Synner667]

For my games I assume that a big part of the Barrens population is still SINless and not in possession of a faked SIN either. They don't need them, as the shadow economy basically reigns those areas. With their own sort of payment, their own shops and even their own doctors. Of course most can't afford medical care, but a normal hospital won't take them without money either.
If you are born SINless, you don't have many ways out. And most of them aren't pretty. Ah, screw that. None of them are pretty.

Many SINless probably could not afford a fake SIN, but anyone can apply for a SIN - it's just that most SINless choose not to [they have to move, get a job, become part of the system].


Anyone getting arrested for anything will end up with a SIN, which is just a reference for a person in the system.


To its logical conclusion, you'd need a SIN just to do things - buy a car, rent a house, have a bank account [no bank account = no credstick = using paper curency ??], travel on a train [your SIN is part of the ticket ??]..
..So having a SIN isn't compulsory, but life is very limited without one.

[Fortune]

As I said before, one of the biggest reasons why SINless don't just apply for a SIN is they have to actually prove who they say they are, which is next to impossible. I am sure that a lot of SINless do apply for a SIN, only to be turned away for a variety of reasons.

[Grinder]

The US is a utopia. SR is a dystopia. I'd expect there are no cells, just a large pieces of empty land with barbed wire and automated guns. Typical 3rd world prison, see the opening of "Batman Begins". And you never get released, as it only costs about $5/day to keep you there. You can sign up for the PPV cage fights....

Why should any government do that? SINless don't cost money, a prison camp does....

[Blade]

A good prison camp can earn you some money...

[Spike]

One factor to consider is extra-nationality. Being SINless isn't a crime in and of itself, certainly. However, outside the barrens there are very few parts of the city/country that are not corporate property, and therefore, technically, other nations.

With a SIN you can go just about anywhere. The Mall, another corp's enclave. There are treaties and such negotiated through the corporate court to allow for this. While Ares may not like an Aztechnology SIN holder on their property, they'll tolerate it as long as he doesn't violate the statutes of the treaty. Thus Mary Jane Rottencrotch, the daughter of an Ares VIP can date Badstrong Butterfingers, the blacksheep son of an Azzie Marketing Director. Of course, Daddy Rottencrotch is likely to find some way to trip poor Badstrong up, get him arrested and detained until Aztechnology negotiates for his release as one of their citizens... and Ares doesn't mind too much as a corp...


But the SINless don't have those sorts of treaties and statutes protecting them. Since they can't have a legal account (not necessarily that they don't have money...) they can't legally shop. Thus security, lonestar, whomever will eject them from over 3/4s of the city on general principle. Aside from city streets and parks and the very occasional private business (owned by someone without a Corporate SIN, be it municipal (issued by the city), Federal, or from some other government) there just isn't anywhere for them to go.

As such, Lonestar will treat any SINless found as up to 'no good'. Vagrancy more than anything else, but 'Deportation' exists: They'll drop you in the nearest barrens and wash their hands of you in a heartbeat.


I've been refining my ideas on Shadowrunners and 'Fake SINs' recently. Given their particular relationship with the Law (er... Lonestar (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) they have very little business outside of the Barrens aside from 'Business' on a normal day to day occasion. Given that most of their safety comes from anonymity, and most of their wants and needs can be obtained in the Shadows and the barrens, full time fake SIN is unnecessary.

On the other hand, once they've progressed to jet setting multimillionaires who run the shadows out of habit and for fun, then a high quality Fake SIN, and in all probability a legitimate one as well, are necessities, and the barrens are a distant nightmare.

[Fortune]

In my opinion, your figures on extraterritoriality are way too high. Not every AAA-owned building is extraterritorial in nature. Not even close. In fact, the building or enclosure must meet specific guidelines set out by the Corporate Court in order to qualify for extraterritoriality.

[Spike]

In my opinion, your figures on extraterritoriality are way too high. Not every AAA-owned building is extraterritorial in nature. Not even close. In fact, the building or enclosure must meet specific guidelines set out by the Corporate Court in order to qualify for extraterritoriality.

That would be quite true if we went 'building by building', yes. But, and since I haven't changed my sig its relavent here (all corps, not just the AAA's push for extranational status), you have to account for housing. Those gated communities eat up huge swaths to land. To put it into perspective, I spent some time at the US Embassy in Kabul a couple of years ago. This one in specific is relevant due to the level of security (twenty foot tall walls around the compound make it easy to see just what is, and is not, 'extraterritorial' land).

Now, despite having only twenty or thirty people in the actual embassy, which itself was a fairly small office building of only two stories.. as in I've seen larger public libraries...

The entire compound occupied the equivilent of two city blocks.

That was one 'building' of very modest proportions.

While the Renraku arcology was a fairly extreme example, I imagine quite a few Corporations use their main office as more than just a place to stick the secretaries. Once you start pushing for 'extraterritorial' status for your property, you don't stop at the building's walls.


Further, I'm sure its more complex than 'Ares Land' and 'Not Ares Land'. Lets take a typical Stuffer Shack as an example here.

Obviously its not cost effective to fight for any given Stuffer Shack to be extraterritorial Aztech 'land'. And it is far more cost effective to simply pay Lonestar to protect Stuffer Shacks around the city than to post Azzie guards at each facility.

But on the other hand, you don't want to pay taxes on everything sold, and you want some measure of control (if only for ego...). You want to be able to say 'no, this is Aztech Property, you have no rights here' if something does indeed come up.

And every corporation is thinking the same thing of all those tiny (comparatively) shops and businesses they own scattered around the world.

So they make sure the extraterritorial status covers, at least in part, their ability to enforce their laws on their property, to include booting SINless from the premesis.


This is without even attempting to get into what is surely a mess of dealing Malls and other mega commerce business areas.

[evanger]

I thought SINs came from a couple of sources (most already mentioned here):

1. The Megacorps independently issue them to their employees. An Aztechnology SIN is not (necessarily) in an Ares database. You get fired, you lose it.

2. The civilian government issues them to their employees. You must be a UCAS citizen to be a government employee.

3. The justice system issues them to criminals.


Other than applying for loans, buying a house, applying for jobs, getting any kind of (perhaps non-existent) government aid, going into high security districts, legally registering firearms, opening a bank account, etc. it doesn't really hurt you to not have one.


That is to say, not having one is a major obstacle to living "out in the open" in a "normal" way. Those who are down and out and or prefer to stick to the shadows don't need one, but complications surely arise. The SINless would be almost forced to live in unsavory places where the luxury of such "background checks" aren't required, they would be forced to buy unlicensed weapons and gear from less than reputable sources, etc. etc.


I would assume any interaction with any kind of proper establishment would require a SIN. Want to report a crime? Want to vote? Get a passport? Get a NAN travel card? Book an airline flight? You need a valid (or well-forged) SIN to do so.

Otherwise, who cares if some squatter out in the Barrens isn't in the official record books?

[kzt]

Also having a bank account or credit card.