Okay, now, this is something that was never really an issue for the group in SR3 (we never had a fake SIN), but seems to be necessary in SR4. Is this really the case?

The fluff has always mentioned that an absurdly large portion of the populace is SINless, but that just means they aren't a citizen and law enforcement can do whatever they want to them if they commit a crime. However, is not having a SIN a crime in itself? What they hell happens to all the poor bastards without one? What will Lone Star really do to you if you are walking through Downtown Seattle (or some A neighborhood) without a SIN? Put you up for the night and warn you? Deport you to the barrens?

Not having a SIN means you cannot be a tax-paying citizen of the country and therefore you could be charged with illegal immigration and held in a cell or deported to wherever will take you, but I can't see Lone Star or federal police picking you up for not having a SIN unless you enter one of the higher security areas where you must broadcast your SIN. There are entire neighbourhoods filled with the SINless, it would make no sense for them to be living relatively peacefully unless the Star and police were dealing with more significant problems elsewhere and being SINless wasn't prosecuted.

As for deportation, technically sovereign countries claim areas of the barrens as their and therefore it would be unlikely that they could deport you to the barrens. However, the main point is that since you're not a citizen Lone Star and the police have no duty to provide services to you and therefore you can disappear or be ejected from the city. There's no records of what happens to the SINless and you have no rights so they can't be violated, though the city and the corp might get bad PR for perceived mistreatment of the SINless, if anyone cared.

If you don't have a SIN, you're not a citizen of any country. They can't charge you for illegal immigration if you didn't come from somewhere else. You can't be an illegal immigrant where you were born. Shadowrun laws are unfair, but they're not stupid.

Lacking a SIN is also common enough that it wouldn't be treated as a crime. They might search you, detain you, etc., because the UCAS constitution doesn't apply to the SINless, but they're not going to bring you to court over it. Courts cost money. It's not worth it for someone who doesn't even have a SIN. They'll probably just drop you off on a street corner in a bad part of town after they decide you haven't committed a crime. There are bigger things for the police to deal with than people who don't have identification, like armed shadowrunners causing havoc every single day. Today's cops might spend most of their time on smalltime, meaningless arrests (possession of narcotics) but the SR4 police are stretched too thin and crime is too high for them to bother with arresting SINless people just for being SINless.

Now, if you commit a crime, they will happily give you a SIN; a criminal SIN. Whoopee!

You do raise a valid point, but - since you don't have any indication of where you came from - the legal system cannot be proved wrong in concluding that you originated elsewhere and passing you onto deportation. The only real impediment is the thought in the back of the minds of many employed in the legal system that a significant number of the SINless were formerly citizens of the country and charges of said system. That's going to make dealing with the SINless an unwanted task for the small pangs of guilt they create in those handling them and so they'll get ignored for the most part unless they commit a crime.

Being without a SIN is likely treated the sameway for the most part homelessness is today. There are certain things they can arrest you for (ie vagrancy which is basically being homeless and in the wrong part of town), and they will definately give you the crimalnal SIN in a big enough arrest, but for the most part I treat it as being homless w/ illegal immigrant qualities.

The big thing is the no Lone Star services. See Wolf and Raven- people were hunting the SINless and when the cops picked it up they didn't even have to get bribed to let it go, they were SINless so the cases are not pursued, if someone comes in and confesses, great murder is still a crime for the citizen, but otherwise- Nothing.

Chris

The SINless don't exist for the system. They don't pay taxes, true, but they don't have access to anything a state grants its citizens like basic health care or welfare money.

And to which country would you deport them?

In some states I could see SINless getting locked up "for deportation purposes" while the authorities are checking whether the subject really has no SIN, or might have a country of origin.

They should put 'em all on rafts out in international waters.

Exactly, they're not a citizen and they're in the country without officially being permitted entry and are therefore illegally in that country. What said country does depends on who knows about the particular SINless person we're discussing and societal values as a whole. In the case of deportation, it'd be to wherever would want to take them; probably nowhere, which means they'll languish in a cell until they get offered an oppurtunity to obtain a valid SIN by the people who are holding them, they break out or they die.

Do we have any information on how often the various countries offer fresh SINs?

I'd assume that if they can't find a country that will take the SINless within a certain period of time, they'll be released. That's how it's done currently over here with illegal immigrants who won't reveal their country of origin - they get thrown in a holding prison for up to 18 months, with 18 more months possible in some cases.

IMO, "walking around without a SIN" should probably not be a crime in most jurisdictions, other than the previously mentioned "must broadcast" zones. Even then, the cops would probably just question/hassle you until you leave (under duress if necessary), unless they think maybe you did something worth doing the paperwork to get you hauled off to jail for.

But, without rights, the cops could basically strip search you without a warrant or probable cause, do invasive id checks (I need some blood for typing and dna check please), rough you up if you don't cooperate, or if they think they can get away with it just put a bullet into you in that dark alley.

Since the Crash millions were left SINless in the UCAF alone. Since as we all know that the corps run everything except us a fake SIN is a must have. What happens when they try to got the hospital to a patch job? Or how will they get a home or drivers license. Its just a fact of life in 2070 that if you don't have a real SIN you have 1 or more fake SINs.

Not to mention that there might be a few countries/corps who would be only too happy to discover a missing citizen held by Lonestar.

"We have been looking for him for experi... I mean, crimes. Of course a wanted criminal would be claiming to have no SIN, but our records clearly show this ork.. I mean, this elf, elf, is a citizen of our corp. We'll send the truck over, as usual."

Well, you are probably right, yet this is an issue in some nations where citizenship isn't automatically assigned if you are born there.
There is quite a large number of people who do not have any nationality(lost, thrown away, born without, withdrawn, etc). Who are 'illegal', and who are treated like shit even in modern day democracys.

I will assume this maltreatment to skyrocket once you apply it for shadowrun. As everything is worse there.
So if LS or some other security company picks you up, you are lucky if you get away with a criminal SIN or a good bribe. If you aren't as fortunate you vanish. There is always need for labrats. And since SINless aren't people, they don't have any rights.

For my games I assume that a big part of the Barrens population is still SINless and not in possession of a faked SIN either. They don't need them, as the shadow economy basically reigns those areas. With their own sort of payment, their own shops and even their own doctors. Of course most can't afford medical care, but a normal hospital won't take them without money either.
If you are born SINless, you don't have many ways out. And most of them aren't pretty. Ah, screw that. None of them are pretty.

I'd say that depends on what they "pick you up" for. Do they just stumble across you and say "Look, some schmuck without a SIN?" If so, I imagine you can toss 'em a few bucks and they'll leave you alone (and you can probably skip the part where you bribe them, unless they're out to keep up some quota or you're really in the wrong neighborhood).

A criminal SIN means paperwork for them. Why would they go through the trouble of arresting you and booking you and charging you with something (all of which is necessary for you to get a criminal SIN) when you bribed them?

And why would they make you vanish, just for not having a SIN? While it's true there are, no doubt, SOME corporate security types who'll go around just beating on folks for no good reason...I don't think there are many that will just put two in your head and toss you into the Sound just because you don't seem to have a system identification number.

I am pretty sure you can make good money when you can deliver specific persons and don't ask questions where they end up.
Being SINless means you are not their client.
Being SINless means noone with legal status will bother looking for you.

Sure this is a somewhat pessimistic view, but hey, it's Shadowrun.

"Hey, it's Shadowrun" doesn't mean it happens all the time, though, for no good reason.

Does everyone play with Fake SINs now? How dystopian do you feel the SINless are treated?

In certain settings, I can totally see the SINless squatters of the barrens being gathered up for medical experiments. On the other hand, I would like to believe in humanity (to an extent) and that they would just turn a blind eye to the suffering of the barrens population rather than actively make things harder for them.

The US is a utopia. SR is a dystopia. I'd expect there are no cells, just a large pieces of empty land with barbed wire and automated guns. Typical 3rd world prison, see the opening of "Batman Begins". And you never get released, as it only costs about $5/day to keep you there. You can sign up for the PPV cage fights....

The BBB mentioned that SINless, at least in the UCAS, have "limited rights". Now not having a SIN means you don't really have a recourse to address any grievances made against those rights but still...

I think the comparison to being homeless is a good example. If you're homeless in the Barrens, that's about par for the course. If you're SINless Downtown during a LS lockdown, you're in a bad way.

This brings me back to a discussion we had earlier one which I was never really satisified with the answers: Why don't more people get SINs? If you're a law abiding nobody who just wants to feed his family and flip hamburgers, why not register for a SIN? I seem to recall reading that there are SIN amnesty programs, if you're not a Shadowrunner, and not completely homeless, wouldn't it be best if you got one? You could at least get a legitimate job working at some dead end business. The other side of it is: what are the barriers to getting a SIN? Do you have to have a fixed verifiable address? A certain income? Certainly this would be true of a corporate SIN but a UCAS SIN? Or a NAN?

I assume for a lot of homeless, the reason they can't get a SIN is the same problem they have with getting an ID card or Driver's license. They have no home or address (necessarily), no proof of identity/citizenship, and sometimes no motive or idea that they even should have one. There are a lot of mentally handicap people on the streets due to the closing down of state mental institutions, and I if we are willing to put handicap people on the street with no way to survive in the modern world, I assume we'd be willing to do the same in 2070.

Also, one of the reasons I assume most people cannot get a SIN even if they want one is that the government and welfare systems are already pushed to the point of breaking, why would they want to take on more cases? If you acknowledge the citizenship of anyone, and especially those without skills, training, or any chance of paying taxes and contributing to society, you are, at least in the short-term, seriously crippling your economy. In Japan, people are very adept at not seeing what they don't want to see, and to feel safe, we must remain ignorant of much of what happens in the world at large. Most people cannot handle acknowledging the suffering of others, and I the Sixth World as having a lot of problems that people would rather die than admit.

As for the original subject, what neighborhoods/areas (primarily in Seattle, but could be in your own setting) do you have as require ID broadcasting? Do you have entire areas (all of Bellevue, etc) require it, or just certain areas/neighborhoods/communities within it?

Not having rights doesn't mean that people will always be screwing you over, just that if they do you have no legal recourse. If Lonestar needs to pin an unsolved crime on someone, or the real perp is well-connected, they might look at you as a convenient suspect. But if nothing like that is happening, not having a SIN just means you're not allowed in a must-broadcast zone; LS will probably just give you a ride back to the bad part of town, although you'll probably lose some of your (relatively) valuable items when you accidentally hit your head on the car door. Basically anything that crooked cops could get away with in an authoritarian environment with little to no transparency/accountability, that's what LS should be getting away with regularly. To anyone without a SIN.

In Max Headroom any "Blanks" picked up and brought into the automated "criminal justice system" were automatically guilty, no evidence or witnesses required.

In areas like the Barrens, where most people are SINless, the economy has to be sort of informal: certified credsticks, cash, maybe some "legit" transactions through fake SINs, but instead of credit being "credit from a bank" it's "credit from Big Vinnie" and bankruptcy might be handled by large trolls liquidating your assets, by which I mean selling your remaining organs to Tamanous.

First of all, since the UCAS constitution borrows mostly from the U.S. constitution, it's the state that has to prove things, not the defendant. Being unable to prove you didn't illegally immigrate is not enough. THEY have to prove you did illegally immigrate from somewhere else.

But that's beside the point. If you're SINless, there won't be any immigration hearing, or any court appearance at all. You don't have the right to a trial at all, so why would they bring you to court? Trials exist to ensure that accused get fair treatment and to assure the public that the system is legitimate. If you don't have the right to a trial, the state can summarily punish you however they want.

On deportation, they could summarily deport you to wherever they want, but the place they bring you will probably be PISSED. Neighboring nations aren't happy when UCAS dumps trash onto them, whether actual refuse or human garbage... If UCAS were dumb enough to try it, the other nation would probably just kick you back into UCAS.

Since no official system recognizes that a SINless person is missing, they could do what they want. They could let you go after confiscating your contraband, they could bring you to a bloodsport arena and make you win your freedom in the ring, they could sell you to a bunraku parlor, or sell your body to tanamous... The latter few would probably be uncommon, because there is at least some internal affairs policing at the Star, I assume. But the point is, there's no "proof" or legal process, just a summary decision of what to do with the dead to rights SINless scum.

Crooked cops probably don't want much to do with SINless since their main motivator is money, and SINless are, on average, broke.


"Deportation Basketball! The new game that's got all of America rounding up their SINless population. The game devised by Pacifist International is a proposed outlet and alternative method of conflict resolution between nations. How many SINless can you successfully deport to your neighboring nations without them realizing? For a one week period, nations are allowed to shuffle around their SINless population and hopefully drop them on neighboring territory. The nation that has the most SINless left outside their borders at the end of game is awarded very favorable trade tariffs for the next year. The Tir is feeling very good about their showing this year, and the UCAS has already ordered massive numbers of civilian transport from Ares, who have agreed to assist Seattle with Knight Errant forces in their struggle to move the Redmond barrens population. Now on to you Pam!"

click "Attention everyone. You'll notice that each of you are wearing a parachute. If you reach up over your left shoulder you'll find a metal clip there. In a minute I'm going to unlock all your restraints and you should strongly consider standing up and hooking that clip to the cables that run along the long axis of the cabin. Whether you do or not, a few minutes later we'll open the back door and go into a vertical climb. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed your flight today and hope that you'll enjoy your new country." click

First thing, there are almost no forced SINless people in SR4. After the crash ANYONE who wanted a SIN could get one. However that means that very few people have an excuse NOT to have a SIN. It might have been a pain in the ass, but even a brokedown troll could get one if they wanted one. It might still be easy to get a legitimate SIN if you really needed one.

And if you get caught without a SIN? They give you one; a criminal SIN. Can't be used for much, but it means they now have you on record for whatever else that they want to do to you. So they would give you a criminal SIN and a fine for being SINless on top of what ever else you were doing when you got caught.

PG 38 BBB

I can see the reason behind your argument, but for some reason I really don't like the SR that creates. An SR without SINless just seems scary! Does anyone else agree with this point of view? Everyone has a SIN, just those who would be SINless have Criminal SINs. Even after the crash, not everyone went to get a SIN. I could have sworn that more people were lost than were registered for new SINs. Also, do you now mean to say that Law Enforcement has penetrated the holy sanctuary of shadows: Redmond and Puyallup?

I'd like to hear other opinions on this.

After the Crash, anyone could get a SIN ... if they could provide proof that they were who they said they were, if not also proof of employment and/or residence, etc, etc.

For the majority of the victims of the Crash, this might pose only a few problems, but for those already SINless, and the unlucky not-so-few who were royally screwed by the Crash, this might well prove to be an insurmountable task.

Oh, there are tons of SINless, but it's not because "The Man" is keeping them down. Its because its a pain, they don't really need one, there are things in their past that they really want to avoid, people they want to avoid, hell they just don't trust the government or corporations. If your already getting paid under the table what the hell do you want a SIN and have to pay taxes for?

As for there being more people now without a SIN then before, I believe that. However it's not because they are victims of the system. It's because they choose to drop out of the systems.

And no LS doesn't go there, but some places have KE and other organizations guarding their enclaves.

I agree that there are plenty of SINless because there is an incredible number of homeless. But I think virtually anyone with a job has a SIN, even if they live in the Barrens. I look to modern day favalla's(sp?) in Brazil. Those areas are completely off the grid, leeching water, sanitation, etc wherever they can get it. Still, vast numbers of people who live there commute down into the city everyday to fill blue collar jobs like maids and cab drivers. They have SIN's but they live int eh Barrens.

Yep. Doubly so on the neighbours being pissed. Whilst the imagery I used might not have been conducive to the conclusion you've come to I've been agreeing with this close to all along. I don't remember explicitly stating that the courts would get involved. The legal system does, after all, include enforcement. It is, however, generally true that bureaucracies attempt rationalisation of their activities even if in absence of important information and would therefore end up with the conclusion that the SINless are effectively on par with illegal immigrants and would deport them to wherever would be least annoyed by having them.

The main thing is that it's a pain, so these kinds of measures would only be used if they are a significant pest to the effective working of the country or city. If a certain part of the barrens is a hotbed of illegal activity performed by the SINless that seeps into your city and disrupts law and order, you should round them up and deport them to whomever will want them - just so long as they aren't bothering you anymore. Given that they're equated in policy to illegal immigrants and squatters you can even publicise that you're rounding them up as a public relations scheme, miscategorising them and mentioning that they were the cause of much unrest; you get to look like big damn heroes and wageslave John will cheer you on.


As for DocTaotsu's point; they'll probably be supported by or directly employed by organised crime. It's likely that the infrastructure of the barrens is entirely provided by the various criminal organisations as an earner. Their various front companies might own some properties in the low-security zones in the city where SINless barrens residents commute to for work, but a lot of the core services that would be provided by the government would end up in the hands of large criminal organisations because they have the scale and resources to control them and provide for the needs of the barrens population efficiently (cheaply, but of course the residents will pay quite a bit for it). When your employer doesn't care that you don't have a SIN, you needn't get one.

"This year, in a rare move, the CAS has begun to delete the SINs of certain disfavored citizens. "It's a calculated risk," said Joe-Bob Billy Sutton, the Secretary of Racial Purity at a recent press conference. "Iff'n we can round up all them trogs 'n such 'n get 'em outta the country, we'll win fer sure. But we'll hafta move quick, otherwise it'll bite us in the ass like a junebug on Tuesday." Several anti-metahuman groups have announced their support for the strategy, while a number of metahuman rights organizations have denounced it in strong terms. Rumors abound of the organizations hiring mercenaries to attempt to both foil and protect the plan. Many commentators have prophesied riots on a scale not seen since the 20's, as well. "It's going to be a bloodbath," said Arnold Appleback, the chief of the Houston Lonestar franchise. "I might finally blow my brains out like I've been planning, so I won't have to deal with it."

Many SINless probably could not afford a fake SIN, but anyone can apply for a SIN - it's just that most SINless choose not to [they have to move, get a job, become part of the system].


Anyone getting arrested for anything will end up with a SIN, which is just a reference for a person in the system.


To its logical conclusion, you'd need a SIN just to do things - buy a car, rent a house, have a bank account [no bank account = no credstick = using paper curency ??], travel on a train [your SIN is part of the ticket ??]..
..So having a SIN isn't compulsory, but life is very limited without one.

As I said before, one of the biggest reasons why SINless don't just apply for a SIN is they have to actually prove who they say they are, which is next to impossible. I am sure that a lot of SINless do apply for a SIN, only to be turned away for a variety of reasons.

Why should any government do that? SINless don't cost money, a prison camp does....

A good prison camp can earn you some money...

One factor to consider is extra-nationality. Being SINless isn't a crime in and of itself, certainly. However, outside the barrens there are very few parts of the city/country that are not corporate property, and therefore, technically, other nations.

With a SIN you can go just about anywhere. The Mall, another corp's enclave. There are treaties and such negotiated through the corporate court to allow for this. While Ares may not like an Aztechnology SIN holder on their property, they'll tolerate it as long as he doesn't violate the statutes of the treaty. Thus Mary Jane Rottencrotch, the daughter of an Ares VIP can date Badstrong Butterfingers, the blacksheep son of an Azzie Marketing Director. Of course, Daddy Rottencrotch is likely to find some way to trip poor Badstrong up, get him arrested and detained until Aztechnology negotiates for his release as one of their citizens... and Ares doesn't mind too much as a corp...


But the SINless don't have those sorts of treaties and statutes protecting them. Since they can't have a legal account (not necessarily that they don't have money...) they can't legally shop. Thus security, lonestar, whomever will eject them from over 3/4s of the city on general principle. Aside from city streets and parks and the very occasional private business (owned by someone without a Corporate SIN, be it municipal (issued by the city), Federal, or from some other government) there just isn't anywhere for them to go.

As such, Lonestar will treat any SINless found as up to 'no good'. Vagrancy more than anything else, but 'Deportation' exists: They'll drop you in the nearest barrens and wash their hands of you in a heartbeat.


I've been refining my ideas on Shadowrunners and 'Fake SINs' recently. Given their particular relationship with the Law (er... Lonestar ) they have very little business outside of the Barrens aside from 'Business' on a normal day to day occasion. Given that most of their safety comes from anonymity, and most of their wants and needs can be obtained in the Shadows and the barrens, full time fake SIN is unnecessary.

On the other hand, once they've progressed to jet setting multimillionaires who run the shadows out of habit and for fun, then a high quality Fake SIN, and in all probability a legitimate one as well, are necessities, and the barrens are a distant nightmare.

In my opinion, your figures on extraterritoriality are way too high. Not every AAA-owned building is extraterritorial in nature. Not even close. In fact, the building or enclosure must meet specific guidelines set out by the Corporate Court in order to qualify for extraterritoriality.

That would be quite true if we went 'building by building', yes. But, and since I haven't changed my sig its relavent here (all corps, not just the AAA's push for extranational status), you have to account for housing. Those gated communities eat up huge swaths to land. To put it into perspective, I spent some time at the US Embassy in Kabul a couple of years ago. This one in specific is relevant due to the level of security (twenty foot tall walls around the compound make it easy to see just what is, and is not, 'extraterritorial' land).

Now, despite having only twenty or thirty people in the actual embassy, which itself was a fairly small office building of only two stories.. as in I've seen larger public libraries...

The entire compound occupied the equivilent of two city blocks.

That was one 'building' of very modest proportions.

While the Renraku arcology was a fairly extreme example, I imagine quite a few Corporations use their main office as more than just a place to stick the secretaries. Once you start pushing for 'extraterritorial' status for your property, you don't stop at the building's walls.


Further, I'm sure its more complex than 'Ares Land' and 'Not Ares Land'. Lets take a typical Stuffer Shack as an example here.

Obviously its not cost effective to fight for any given Stuffer Shack to be extraterritorial Aztech 'land'. And it is far more cost effective to simply pay Lonestar to protect Stuffer Shacks around the city than to post Azzie guards at each facility.

But on the other hand, you don't want to pay taxes on everything sold, and you want some measure of control (if only for ego...). You want to be able to say 'no, this is Aztech Property, you have no rights here' if something does indeed come up.

And every corporation is thinking the same thing of all those tiny (comparatively) shops and businesses they own scattered around the world.

So they make sure the extraterritorial status covers, at least in part, their ability to enforce their laws on their property, to include booting SINless from the premesis.


This is without even attempting to get into what is surely a mess of dealing Malls and other mega commerce business areas.

I thought SINs came from a couple of sources (most already mentioned here):

1. The Megacorps independently issue them to their employees. An Aztechnology SIN is not (necessarily) in an Ares database. You get fired, you lose it.

2. The civilian government issues them to their employees. You must be a UCAS citizen to be a government employee.

3. The justice system issues them to criminals.


Other than applying for loans, buying a house, applying for jobs, getting any kind of (perhaps non-existent) government aid, going into high security districts, legally registering firearms, opening a bank account, etc. it doesn't really hurt you to not have one.


That is to say, not having one is a major obstacle to living "out in the open" in a "normal" way. Those who are down and out and or prefer to stick to the shadows don't need one, but complications surely arise. The SINless would be almost forced to live in unsavory places where the luxury of such "background checks" aren't required, they would be forced to buy unlicensed weapons and gear from less than reputable sources, etc. etc.


I would assume any interaction with any kind of proper establishment would require a SIN. Want to report a crime? Want to vote? Get a passport? Get a NAN travel card? Book an airline flight? You need a valid (or well-forged) SIN to do so.

Otherwise, who cares if some squatter out in the Barrens isn't in the official record books?

Also having a bank account or credit card.