Essence Drain: Permanent or Not?, Never really been clear to me |
Essence Drain: Permanent or Not?, Never really been clear to me |
Mar 17 2008, 09:03 PM
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#1
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
In the 3rd edt Critters there was a difference between Essence Drain and Essence Drain (Temporary) (pg10 Critters). In Fourth Edt, I haven't noticed any notation of whether it's permanent or Temporary. It simply doesn't say, and I didn't see anything in the FAQ or erratta. I could assume that since in 3rd edt it was noted as Essence Drain, and Essence Drain (Temp) that the general power in 4th is permanent, but I'd rather not assume things. does it say straight out either way anywhere?
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Mar 17 2008, 09:14 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
From what I have read Essence Drain in SR4 is permanent, puts fear into shadowrunners what go up against such.
One cure from Augmentation allows healing essence loss/holes. WMS |
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Mar 17 2008, 09:23 PM
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#3
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
One cure from Augmentation allows healing essence loss/holes. WMS That I was aware of. Thanks Wearz. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was curious because things like the Essence healing against permanent essence drain make a big difference. If, for example, Essence drain was temporary, then vampire cults could make a lot more sense, because people could be drained, but recover in time, much like natural healing, and still be addicted to it. However, if the recovery can only be done through treatment (like Hitomi Shiawase I expect), then that changes the dynamic of it a lot. Vampires are much more deadly, less attractive as a cult following for example. Wendigos were always nasty, but Banshees are out right deadly instead of being 'merely' horrifying. A good example of the rules dictacting how the game world fluff really works (or doesn't). Is it clearly stated anywhere though? |
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Mar 17 2008, 09:27 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I've actually looked for an answer to this very question before, and not been able to find a clearly stated answer. Sometimes it sounds vaguely healable, but mostly it seems like it is intended to be permanent unless you use the Aug gene treatment. Also, I would like to point out that you starting this thread today makes me nervous for Haven as we are just about to start a run.
Chris |
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Mar 17 2008, 09:34 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 697 Joined: 18-August 07 Member No.: 12,735 |
I've always wondered about that too... It makes sense that non ware created essence loss should be in some way recoverable.
Perhaps have the player roll remaining essence once per month(week?) and each hit heals .1 essence up to the augmented maximum (i.e. if you burned 3 essence with ware then the highest you can heal is back to essence 3). |
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Mar 17 2008, 09:52 PM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 |
I would think that this would be up to each GM. If you want a more deadly game, then have it permanent. If you want less deadly then it can be healed.
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Mar 17 2008, 10:11 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Let's look at it logically. What causes essence loss besides for magical critters? Cyberware does.
If the cyberware is removed the essence total goes back up, right? In other words, once the thing causing the essence disruption is gone the essence comes back. Therefore, it seems logical that once whatever is draining the essence is gone (someone gave the vampire a dikoted stake enema) the essence should return. The only ambiguity in my mind is the timeframe. |
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Mar 17 2008, 10:16 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Let's look at it logically. What causes essence loss besides for magical critters? Cyberware does. If the cyberware is removed the essence total goes back up, right? In other words, once the thing causing the essence disruption is gone the essence comes back. Therefore, it seems logical that once whatever is draining the essence is gone (someone gave the vampire a dikoted stake enema) the essence should return. The only ambiguity in my mind is the timeframe. From what I have read essence lost to cyberware etc, does not heal back to its former state. ie That is why the essence healing in Augmentation. Ie if I install regular grade cyberware at a essence loss of 2 points, then later replace/upgrade to extreme delta ware that the essence "hole" does not heal or regenerate. In all previous iterations of SR any essence lost due to cyberware etc is permanent. WMS |
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Mar 17 2008, 11:01 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,300 Joined: 6-February 08 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 15,648 |
From what I have read essence lost to cyberware etc, does not heal back to its former state. ie That is why the essence healing in Augmentation. Ie if I install regular grade cyberware at a essence loss of 2 points, then later replace/upgrade to extreme delta ware that the essence "hole" does not heal or regenerate. In all previous iterations of SR any essence lost due to cyberware etc is permanent. WMS Correct. In SR4, essence holes may also only be used as spare slots for implants of the same type. Which means that if you get your wired reflexes removed, you cannot use the resulting hole to pay for your new synaptic accelerator's essence cost. |
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Mar 18 2008, 12:23 AM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,188 Joined: 9-February 08 From: Boiling Springs Member No.: 15,665 |
Correct. In SR4, essence holes may also only be used as spare slots for implants of the same type. Which means that if you get your wired reflexes removed, you cannot use the resulting hole to pay for your new synaptic accelerator's essence cost. Why not? Where does it say that? |
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Mar 18 2008, 12:36 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,300 Joined: 6-February 08 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 15,648 |
Why not? Where does it say that? Aug., P. 128: QUOTE When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an "Essence hole"- a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants [...] and her current Essence. This Essence hole never "heals" naturally. It may, however, be used as "credit" for any new implants of the same type (cyber- or bioware) Emphasis mine. Don't like it, either. But by RAW, that's clearly the way it works. |
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Mar 18 2008, 12:38 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Yeah, it's a retcon in augementation that is kinda stupid. Making it universal seems both easier to understand and less abuseable.
And if you want to understand why it is stupid http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=essence++holes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) For the love of god though, if you want to debate it do it in the orginal thread. Intrestingly, in the same thread (bottom of the next page) FrankTrollman mentions that essence lost from drain should NEVER be healed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Implying that in his mind at least its not a temporary thing. |
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Mar 18 2008, 01:17 AM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,653 Joined: 22-January 08 Member No.: 15,430 |
Essence drain has to be permanent simply because there are no rules on it coming back. The moment you have to invent from whole cloth a rule on it coming back .1 per day or whatever, you're making a house rule. If essence came back after essence drain, there would be rules on it.
Now... is that wise? I dunno. In one sense it could be seen as punishing low essence characters every time the GM puts those characters up against an essence drainer. Either the GM doesn't use those critters, or it's like he's picking the exact thing that can instantly kill them. But then again in another sense, those character should know that taking super low essence isn't without its drawbacks, including increased danger from essence drainers. |
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Mar 18 2008, 01:38 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 438 Joined: 21-September 07 From: Houston Member No.: 13,369 |
Methinks this might get some resolution when Runner Companion comes out, since Vamp PCs were hinted at being in it along with some HMHVV answers. (Unless Im confusing some chat answers from saturday)
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Mar 18 2008, 01:53 AM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 24-September 07 Member No.: 13,404 |
Yeah, it's a retcon in augementation that is kinda stupid. Making it universal seems both easier to understand and less abuseable. And if you want to understand why it is stupid It's not a retcon, unless I'm horrifically mistaken (page ref?) SR4, before Augmentation, is silent as to essence holes/healing. Additionally, there isn't any real trickery you can do with essence holes, if it looks like there is, you screwed up the math. CEA: Cyber Essence Account = sum(current cyber essence costs) + remaining cyber essence hole BEA: Bio Essence Account = sum(current cyber essence costs) + remaining bio essence hole Current Essence = 6 - max(CEA, BEA) - min(CEA,BEA)/2 - Essence Drain/Loss from other sources Additionally, you may want to look at QUOTE (Augmentation pg 88) Cellular Repair: ... even heals Essence loss inflicted by a critter with the Energy Drain or Essence Drain powers... Revitalization Revitalization is a recent breakthrough that repairs Essence loss derived from invasive implantation. ... In game terms, revitalization regenerates the Essence “hole� left by the removal of an implant from the body. ... Which, AFAIK, are the definitive references to healing Essence loss. Note that Cellular Repair works on non implant essence loss and Revitalization works directly on essence holes from the removal of implants. Also, in support of the formulas I list above, all references to essence holes are in terms of the amount of essence the implant (that was removed) cost, not in terms of the delta it actually caused to your essence when you installed it. |
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Mar 18 2008, 02:31 AM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I refer you to the previous thread for clear, ellucidated arguments about why you just screwed up the maths in that post.
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Mar 18 2008, 03:06 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 24-September 07 Member No.: 13,404 |
I refer you to the previous thread for clear, ellucidated arguments about why you just screwed up the maths in that post. I disagree. Any other reading of the rules is absurd. Admittedly, like most other things in SR4, the wording of the rules is loose and beyond the controlling sections, fails to distinguish between Total Essence Loss (Delta) and Essence Loss (Cost), however, per SR4 pg 84, "Essence losses from cyberware and bioware are tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from Essence in full, with the other deducting at half." This line clearly separates the halved delta cost from the halved, and in fact, demonstrates that the relevent cost (for the purpose of essence holes) of a (removed) implant is the unhalved cost. This is reinforced by Augmentation pg 128 "In other words, if you remove one cyberware item that had an Essence Cost of 1, you may install up to Essence Cost 1 of new cyberware without lowering your Essence total. Any cost over 1 would be deducted as normal." Essence costs specific to a type of implant aren't halved (see SR4 84), and 'as normal' can only be computed when involving (the again, non halved) seperate totals for Cyber and Bioware. Yes, there is other wording, but that other wording fails to distinguish between Cost (per implant table) and Cost (per Total Essence Delta) but does specifically refer to the normal methedology, and is therefore, ambiguous in itself but specifies that it ISN'T changing the normal calculations. Specifically, Synner adequately describes and defends the RAW, and is supported by the non ambiguous statements in SR4 and Augmentation while being consistent with the the MANY ambiguous statements (that make reference to 'as normal' but fail to clearly distinguish between Cost and Delta) |
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Mar 18 2008, 03:16 AM
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#18
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) Let's look at it logically. What causes essence loss besides for magical critters? Cyberware does. QUOTE (WearzManySkin) From what I have read essence lost to cyberware etc, does not heal back to its former state. Wearz is right on that one, so following Wounded Ronin's line of thought, that does make sense that Essense Drain should be handled as permanent unless explicitly stated otherwise. QUOTE (Grymor Augmentation pg 88) Cellular Repair: ... even heals Essence loss inflicted by a critter with the Energy Drain or Essence Drain powers... Revitalization Revitalization is a recent breakthrough that repairs Essence loss derived from invasive implantation. ... In game terms, revitalization regenerates the Essence “hole� left by the removal of an implant from the body. ... This makes me wonder if the Revitalization would actually heal Essence Drain, since it specifically states that it repairs essense loss from the Essence Hole phenomenom. After all, magic and tech are notorious for not meshing well, and Essence Drain is very much magical. |
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Mar 18 2008, 03:56 AM
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#19
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Also, I would like to point out that you starting this thread today makes me nervous for Haven as we are just about to start a run. Chris Now if I were to include something like this in your run, would I be so obvious as to post it in the open forums, where you could see it and get a some warning that something like this might be coming your way? Unless of course I figured that you would think about that, and so reason that I must be needing it for another game than the one you're inolved in, since I wouldn't be so foolish as to ask questions about that in open forums. Therefore it couldn't possibly be the run that you're involved in. Or perhaps it's simply reverse psychology, where I assure that it isn't for your run, so it must be, so it can't be. Or I just very much enjoy screwing with your head and was simply asking a question I was curious about for a while, and decided to torment you a while. Would I do that? Or maybe all these extra ideas are simply there to confuse you, and this question is indeed for the game you're involved in, and I just want to keep you guessing. Makes you wonder what kind of a sick fuck you're gaming with, if they'd do all these nasty little headgames, just to keep you guessing, when it might not even have anything to do with you. ...What's Haven's essence again? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Mar 18 2008, 09:33 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 |
This makes me wonder if the Revitalization would actually heal Essence Drain, since it specifically states that it repairs essense loss from the Essence Hole phenomenom. After all, magic and tech are notorious for not meshing well, and Essence Drain is very much magical. No it doesn't. But Cellular Repair does. |
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Mar 18 2008, 12:16 PM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Makes you wonder what kind of a sick fuck you're gaming with ... You know, it's kind of funny, but I never really had to spend all that much time wondering ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Mar 20 2008, 12:50 AM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I cannot remember exactly where I read it but in one of the sourcebooks in the comments from the devs section one of the devs said that he thinks essence comes back. Maybe it was MITS? Anyway that's always what I'd been going on.
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