In the 3rd edt Critters there was a difference between Essence Drain and Essence Drain (Temporary) (pg10 Critters). In Fourth Edt, I haven't noticed any notation of whether it's permanent or Temporary. It simply doesn't say, and I didn't see anything in the FAQ or erratta. I could assume that since in 3rd edt it was noted as Essence Drain, and Essence Drain (Temp) that the general power in 4th is permanent, but I'd rather not assume things. does it say straight out either way anywhere?

From what I have read Essence Drain in SR4 is permanent, puts fear into shadowrunners what go up against such.

One cure from Augmentation allows healing essence loss/holes.

WMS

That I was aware of. Thanks Wearz. I was curious because things like the Essence healing against permanent essence drain make a big difference. If, for example, Essence drain was temporary, then vampire cults could make a lot more sense, because people could be drained, but recover in time, much like natural healing, and still be addicted to it. However, if the recovery can only be done through treatment (like Hitomi Shiawase I expect), then that changes the dynamic of it a lot. Vampires are much more deadly, less attractive as a cult following for example. Wendigos were always nasty, but Banshees are out right deadly instead of being 'merely' horrifying. A good example of the rules dictacting how the game world fluff really works (or doesn't).

Is it clearly stated anywhere though?

I've actually looked for an answer to this very question before, and not been able to find a clearly stated answer. Sometimes it sounds vaguely healable, but mostly it seems like it is intended to be permanent unless you use the Aug gene treatment. Also, I would like to point out that you starting this thread today makes me nervous for Haven as we are just about to start a run.

Chris

I've always wondered about that too... It makes sense that non ware created essence loss should be in some way recoverable.

Perhaps have the player roll remaining essence once per month(week?) and each hit heals .1 essence up to the augmented maximum (i.e. if you burned 3 essence with ware then the highest you can heal is back to essence 3).

I would think that this would be up to each GM. If you want a more deadly game, then have it permanent. If you want less deadly then it can be healed.

Let's look at it logically. What causes essence loss besides for magical critters? Cyberware does.

If the cyberware is removed the essence total goes back up, right? In other words, once the thing causing the essence disruption is gone the essence comes back.

Therefore, it seems logical that once whatever is draining the essence is gone (someone gave the vampire a dikoted stake enema) the essence should return.

The only ambiguity in my mind is the timeframe.

From what I have read essence lost to cyberware etc, does not heal back to its former state. ie That is why the essence healing in Augmentation.

Ie if I install regular grade cyberware at a essence loss of 2 points, then later replace/upgrade to extreme delta ware that the essence "hole" does not heal or regenerate.

In all previous iterations of SR any essence lost due to cyberware etc is permanent.

WMS

Correct.
In SR4, essence holes may also only be used as spare slots for implants of the same type.

Which means that if you get your wired reflexes removed, you cannot use the resulting hole to pay for your new synaptic accelerator's essence cost.

Why not? Where does it say that?

Aug., P. 128:



Emphasis mine.
Don't like it, either.
But by RAW, that's clearly the way it works.

Yeah, it's a retcon in augementation that is kinda stupid. Making it universal seems both easier to understand and less abuseable.

And if you want to understand why it is stupid

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=essence++holes



For the love of god though, if you want to debate it do it in the orginal thread.

Intrestingly, in the same thread (bottom of the next page) FrankTrollman mentions that essence lost from drain should NEVER be healed

Implying that in his mind at least its not a temporary thing.

Essence drain has to be permanent simply because there are no rules on it coming back. The moment you have to invent from whole cloth a rule on it coming back .1 per day or whatever, you're making a house rule. If essence came back after essence drain, there would be rules on it.

Now... is that wise? I dunno. In one sense it could be seen as punishing low essence characters every time the GM puts those characters up against an essence drainer. Either the GM doesn't use those critters, or it's like he's picking the exact thing that can instantly kill them. But then again in another sense, those character should know that taking super low essence isn't without its drawbacks, including increased danger from essence drainers.

Methinks this might get some resolution when Runner Companion comes out, since Vamp PCs were hinted at being in it along with some HMHVV answers. (Unless Im confusing some chat answers from saturday)

It's not a retcon, unless I'm horrifically mistaken (page ref?) SR4, before Augmentation, is silent as to essence holes/healing. Additionally, there isn't any real trickery you can do with essence holes, if it looks like there is, you screwed up the math.

CEA: Cyber Essence Account = sum(current cyber essence costs) + remaining cyber essence hole
BEA: Bio Essence Account = sum(current cyber essence costs) + remaining bio essence hole

Current Essence = 6 - max(CEA, BEA) - min(CEA,BEA)/2 - Essence Drain/Loss from other sources

Additionally, you may want to look at


Which, AFAIK, are the definitive references to healing Essence loss. Note that Cellular Repair works on non implant essence loss and Revitalization works directly on essence holes from the removal of implants.

Also, in support of the formulas I list above, all references to essence holes are in terms of the amount of essence the implant (that was removed) cost, not in terms of the delta it actually caused to your essence when you installed it.

I refer you to the previous thread for clear, ellucidated arguments about why you just screwed up the maths in that post.

I disagree. Any other reading of the rules is absurd. Admittedly, like most other things in SR4, the wording of the rules is loose and beyond the controlling sections, fails to distinguish between Total Essence Loss (Delta) and Essence Loss (Cost), however, per SR4 pg 84, "Essence losses from cyberware and bioware are tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from Essence in full, with the other deducting at half." This line clearly separates the halved delta cost from the halved, and in fact, demonstrates that the relevent cost (for the purpose of essence holes) of a (removed) implant is the unhalved cost. This is reinforced by Augmentation pg 128 "In other words, if you remove one
cyberware item that had an Essence Cost of 1, you may install up to Essence Cost 1 of new cyberware without lowering your Essence total. Any cost over 1 would be deducted as normal." Essence costs specific to a type of implant aren't halved (see SR4 84), and 'as normal' can only be computed when involving (the again, non halved) seperate totals for Cyber and Bioware.

Yes, there is other wording, but that other wording fails to distinguish between Cost (per implant table) and Cost (per Total Essence Delta) but does specifically refer to the normal methedology, and is therefore, ambiguous in itself but specifies that it ISN'T changing the normal calculations.

Specifically, Synner adequately describes and defends the RAW, and is supported by the non ambiguous statements in SR4 and Augmentation while being consistent with the the MANY ambiguous statements (that make reference to 'as normal' but fail to clearly distinguish between Cost and Delta)

Wearz is right on that one, so following Wounded Ronin's line of thought, that does make sense that Essense Drain should be handled as permanent unless explicitly stated otherwise.


This makes me wonder if the Revitalization would actually heal Essence Drain, since it specifically states that it repairs essense loss from the Essence Hole phenomenom. After all, magic and tech are notorious for not meshing well, and Essence Drain is very much magical.

Now if I were to include something like this in your run, would I be so obvious as to post it in the open forums, where you could see it and get a some warning that something like this might be coming your way?

Unless of course I figured that you would think about that, and so reason that I must be needing it for another game than the one you're inolved in, since I wouldn't be so foolish as to ask questions about that in open forums. Therefore it couldn't possibly be the run that you're involved in.

Or perhaps it's simply reverse psychology, where I assure that it isn't for your run, so it must be, so it can't be.

Or I just very much enjoy screwing with your head and was simply asking a question I was curious about for a while, and decided to torment you a while. Would I do that?

Or maybe all these extra ideas are simply there to confuse you, and this question is indeed for the game you're involved in, and I just want to keep you guessing.

Makes you wonder what kind of a sick fuck you're gaming with, if they'd do all these nasty little headgames, just to keep you guessing, when it might not even have anything to do with you.

...What's Haven's essence again?

No it doesn't. But Cellular Repair does.

You know, it's kind of funny, but I never really had to spend all that much time wondering ...

I cannot remember exactly where I read it but in one of the sourcebooks in the comments from the devs section one of the devs said that he thinks essence comes back. Maybe it was MITS? Anyway that's always what I'd been going on.