 Silencers, An interesting read |
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 Dec 5 2003, 06:15 AM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916  |
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Dec 5 2003, 06:21 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Yeah, I read somewhere that a suppressed gunshot can be as loud as a dictionary being dropped onto a hardwood floor.
Admittedly, that was from the Call of Cthulhu rulebook, but still it's interesting. Though that car door beign slammed sounds like a pretty good reduction in sound. (BTW I am neither military nor police, so I have no firsthand knowledge of this stuff). |
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Dec 5 2003, 06:54 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Singapore Member No.: 4,487 |
The "clatter of the bolt" is sometimes eliminated by spec forces or spies (oo-er!) by arresting the weapon's bolt preventing its return slide. However, this is really only useful if you intend to fire single shots since the bolt must be manually released after each shot to chamber the next round.
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Dec 5 2003, 07:40 AM
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Woo for slide locks.
~J |
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Dec 5 2003, 10:22 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 1-October 03 Member No.: 5,668 |
This also raises the question of how quiet do you really need to be? Chances are anyone close enough to hear the movement of the bolt will notice the shooter through other means as well (movement, the bullet hitting the target, etc…).
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Dec 5 2003, 10:29 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The main advantage with the slide lock is that the cycling of the bolt is a vary 'non-innocent sound' while someone just walking around isn't.
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Dec 5 2003, 12:28 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
SpecForces, spies and every Finnish grunt that happens to have a sound suppressor if they so wish. In many gas actuated weapons, like the RK95, you can simply shut the gas valve and don't have to lock the slide. The bullet hitting the target won't tell you where the shooter is, the noise of the bolt or slide will. Sure people will notice that somebody shot someone, but when they can't hear any sound from the shooter's direction, they haven't got much to go by as long as the shooter is well hidden. I'll go ahead and advertise Raygun's suppression-stuff too. |
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Dec 5 2003, 01:16 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Interesting article. I know there is a single type of silenced revolver produced by the Russians, but it used unusual cartridges and (maybe) other design features to seal that gap. Speaking of clattering bolts, it would seem like there's other ways to silence that than to lock the bolt between shots and require manual cycling. Unfortunately, I don't know where the impact surfaces are inside a gun to be more specific, but... How about "rubberized" impact coatings? Even a thin coat of a high-temperature rubbery material (silicone, teflon) will do wonders for reducing the noise of metal hitting metal. Gun nuts: Are the striking surfaces in weapons usually directly exposed to burning gunpowder? Do they regularly get above 600F? Also, (non-polymer) composite materials are good for soaking up sound. Carbon-carbon composites, ceramic matrix composites, metal matrix composites, cermets, etc. just don't "ring" like pure metals. All those reinforcing fibers and different components have different speeds of sound, so the noise gets fuzzed out into duller "clacks". |
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Dec 5 2003, 02:06 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 13-November 03 Member No.: 5,820 |
I know Raygun's site provides a lot of rules for suppressors, but is there any chance subsonic ammo will make it into canon? Or, for that matter, rational suppression rules?
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Dec 5 2003, 03:03 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I kinda doubt it -- although I wouldn't have thought they'd put that much mind-numbing effort into cyberware, decking and rigging. Stranger things have happened. -Siege |
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Dec 5 2003, 07:47 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UCAS Member No.: 1,015 |
Interesting article. Since the UK gun laws are so strict compared to the US I always just assumed that silencers were illegal there as well.
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Dec 5 2003, 08:37 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Truthfully, so did I and I live here. I know there's a company in Georgia that makes and sells silencers, but I've never felt the need to inquire further. Temptation is not a good thing. :grinbig: -Siege |
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Dec 5 2003, 11:50 PM
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#13
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Well, for the most part, silencers are restricted, but not illegal - though some states, such as my beloved home (California) restrict them so much so as to be effectively illegal.
Most places, you need a concealed gun permit to have a silence. Others, you need a concealed gun permit AND a silencer permit. In California, New York (and one or maybe two other states - two at the most) you need to be some sort of law enforcement or law-enforcement accredited individual to have a silencer. This usually includes retired police or sheriffs' officers, certain private security companies (such as those that do site security for military storage spaces, or Raytheon). |
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Dec 6 2003, 12:27 AM
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#14
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Or you could live in Alaska, and carry a firearm concealed without so much as a background check. No licence required. Ah living on the frontier, to bad the weather sucks.
Purchasing a silencer is a lot like buying a class III weapon. You have to jump through some hoops, but you can do it. God Bless America! |
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Dec 6 2003, 12:29 AM
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#15
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Speaking of shotguns, would there be any difference if you were holding the muzzle up against someone when you fired? I read something about his the big bloody hole you make in the person could act as a kind of suppressor baffle. Anyone know if there's any truth in this?
Yup, the M1895 Nagant revolver. |
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Dec 6 2003, 12:34 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,047 Joined: 12-November 03 From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation. Member No.: 5,818 |
Link don't work.
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Dec 6 2003, 12:37 AM
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#17
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Out of bandwidth. Try again later. Says so on page.
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Dec 6 2003, 12:52 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 30-March 03 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 4,355 |
Not sure if this is similar to the unavailable page, but here's another link to the Nagant Revolver
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Dec 6 2003, 01:51 AM
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#19
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Much better. Has pictures. Thanks.
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Dec 6 2003, 02:02 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Weeelll, you can get sound suppressors for just about any firearm without any hassle whatsoever here in Finland -- except of course for the basic hassle of getting the firearm in question in the first place. So I guess Finland is more Blessed. :P Cray, I guess we'll have to wait on Raygun to appear, unless one of those "post once and never reappear" gun nuts show up. I really don't know what parts of a firearm make most of the noise, and how hot those get. I'm sure there are some parts in there that could be coated that won't get very hot (like the extreme back end of the upper receiver, where the recoil spring and the end of the slide assembly is located), but for the rest of them I just don't know. |
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Dec 6 2003, 06:42 AM
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#21
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
As Aus previously mentioned, my own website has much more information regarding firearm sound suppression if you're interested in the details. If you want to hear what a suppressed firearm really sounds like, there are videos available on the OPS, Inc. and SWR websites. There is also video of the MP5SD being fired on the HKPRO website. If you've ever played Rogue Spear, you'll recognize that sound.
It depends on the type of operation. The surfaces that contact each other are at the rear of the receiver, where the bolt/bolt carrier's rearward motion terminates, and at the forward part of the receiver, where the bolt is closed shut. The sound at the rearward point of impact can easily be dealt with in some weapons using a recoil buffer. Just a formed piece of polymer that sits at the rear impact point, between metal surfaces. There's no significant heat generated at that point. The forward point of impact is much trickier. Not only is heat an issue, especially with automatic weapons, but the most common type of operation employed for automatic rifles, gas operation, uses a rotating bolt that locks either directly into the barrel or into an extension behind the chamber that essentially acts as a heat sink for the barrel. This rotating bolt locks the chamber closed until the bullet has left the barrel, so that pressure drops to a safe level before the cartridge case is extracted from the chamber. In other words, it keeps the rifle from blowing up in your face. However, the majority of the sound generated at the forward point is usually by the bolt carrier impacting the forward part of the receiver. I'm sure that there are ways to make that forward "whack" quieter, especially if the weapon is purpose-built rather than retrofitted for quiet operation. Other types of operation and specific weapons may be easier to work with. Al Paulson suggested machining an annular ring at the rear of the barrel and around the chamber of the Ruger 10/22 (blowback operated), which would then be filled with a rubber O-ring commonly available at plumbing stores. Of course, this only applies to one specific model of firearm (a .22 at that), but it's an interesting idea. Still, the simplest way to keep cycling noise from being a factor is to just lock the bolt closed and cycle manually. All of this is really academic anyway, as the act of shooting things with automatic weapons is going to be given away by the sound of the bullets impacting the target (area), no matter what they're made of. It's pretty difficult to diguise that sound, whether it be bullets tinking off of a car, or impacting a road, a lawn, water, or flesh. If you've ever gone hunting, you know what I'm talking about in the latter case. That suprisingly loud "THIP" sound that says "good job". The good thing is that that sound is usually louder than the cycling noise and it also has a tendency to draw attention away from the shooter's position. |
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Dec 6 2003, 03:30 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Thanks for that informative input. That did help my mental model of gun noise.
Ah, well now. I was thinking of a silenced weapon in terms of "not finding the shooter" instead of "hiding the fact that shooting is occurring." If I want to hide the shooting, I'd try to use 1 bullet to get the job done and then run. So, is it easy to ID where the shooter is (assume shooter is 50-100m away) if all you have to go on is a hail of bullets making a lot of noise in your area? |
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Dec 7 2003, 12:59 AM
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#23
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
It depends on whether the shooter is trying to hide or not and what kind of environment he and the target are in at the time. In general, I guess the sound at the shooter's position will probably not be recognized as a gun by the vast majority of people, especially in urban environments. But out in the sticks, even suppressed, the sound would be undeniably mechanical and much more noticeable. It's the regular, repetitive sound of autofire that gives it away, which wouldn't be a factor with precision fire. Basically, there's not a lot of point in suppressing autofire other than to protect the shooter's hearing, especially in close quarters. Stealthy precision fire is much more effective. |
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Dec 7 2003, 02:55 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 8-November 03 Member No.: 5,802 |
Another factor is that people assume you can just know instantly where a shot came from. At long range, that might be true, but in a closed environment (hilly forest, or urban area with lots of tall buildings/structures), that echo sucks. At a certain distance, it sounds like it's coming from everywhere.
And yeah, out in the country, the sound of a gunshot is very distinctive to most of those living there; most of us grow up with it. There are a few folks who are so into the gun hobby out here, they can tell the gun being shot, and, if they know the person's shooting habits (timing between shots, location being hunted, etc.), they can tell exactly who's hunting and where they are. To jump back to the gas-vent comment, I wonder how feasible it is to make a combo gas-vent / suppressor? Certainly sounds nifty... |
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Dec 7 2003, 03:18 AM
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#25
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Completely infeasible. A suppressor is designed to contain, slow, and reduce the pressure of expanding propellant gases (the cause of the bang) while a compensator uses that energy (most effectively without reducing its pressure or velocity) and redirects it to counter muzzle climb. It is possible to machine a muzzle brake into a barrel and then have a suppressor mount over it when needed. But in reality, suppressors are more often than not just as efficient at controlling recoil as "gas vents" are, so having both is generally superfluous.
More reading. |
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