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> Riggers and Remote Operations, Remote-crontrolling a turret with your mind uses... Agility?
Eyeless Blond
post Mar 20 2008, 02:27 AM
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Huh. I was humming along, building a rigger under the new SR rules, and was somewhat surprised to find out that physical attributes are now used for jumped-in riggers doing remote operations. Gunnery now uses Agility; piloting now uses Reaction, even when in full VR with your body "switched off."

When did this happen? And how does it make sense, especially given that:

1) Mages still use Mental Attributes when astrally projecting, and
2) Cyborgs use the Vehicle/drone's attributes.

So, um, how does that work exactly? Shouldn't Gunnery be linked to Logic, like it was in SR3? Should Pilot(remote Operation) be linked to Intuition? Or should we go further and allow a rigger's high Str to provide recoil compensation, and the rigger's Body for vehicle damage resistance tests?
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Jaid
post Mar 20 2008, 02:30 AM
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look closer. you use response for most attributes when rigging, but sensor when shooting.

when remote controlling (but not rigging) you use the rating of your command program.

too lazy to look up page numbers though, mostly because i want sleep (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 20 2008, 02:40 AM
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I think this was covered in the errata -- you use the appropriate Matrix attribute, or the corresponding attribute of the vehicle/drone. What those are is covered somewhere in the book, I think.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 20 2008, 03:29 AM
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Nothing in the Errata. Do you mean the "FAQ"?

There's a blurb about issuing commands on page 220, which uses Command program + appropriate skill instead of attribute + skill. It's considered distinct from both VR and relying on the drone Pilot, somehow occupying a third, middle ground, but doesn't exactly explain how that works (are you in AR? VR? "Captain's chair?" which doesn't seem to have any rules anymore.

So yeah, confused.
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BFaolan
post Mar 20 2008, 03:33 AM
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The FAQ says 'sensor + gunnery'

The BBB says use agility.

Since the FAQ rule means its often better to leave the drone to run under its pilot and targeting auto-soft (since you have no sensible way to upgrade sensor) we went with the BBB rule.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 20 2008, 12:00 PM
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Er, that's for the "sensor-enhanced" version, which apparently is even worse than that for nearly all possible values of sensor, as you get a further -3DP unless you're aiming at a large truck or something (see p. 162)
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hobgoblin
post Mar 20 2008, 12:19 PM
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http://shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#8
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hermit
post Mar 20 2008, 01:17 PM
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I've said this before, and I'm happy to restate it: Rigger rules, and especially anything concerning Vehicles and Sensors, is FUBAR in SR4. They messed up Riggers so good they make no sense any more and seem to have no intention on changing that much (considering the relevant replies in the dev chat).

Funny, really, as Synner once stated SR4's aim would be to make Riggers MORE fun to play, not less.
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 01:24 PM
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Riggers were HAUS in SR3. Yes, they have been shafted. That should be fixed, but they don't need to make it so a rigger can replace a whole team (though with room in his bod for Skillwires, I'm not sure he can't now). 'Nuff said.
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 20 2008, 01:28 PM
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Your physical attributes have little to do with rigger, when you are actually Rigging (Cold-Sim or Hot-Sim VR)

QUOTE
Perception Perception + Sensor
Attack Gunnery + Sensor
Defense Response
Full Defense Dodge + Response
Damage Resistance Body + Armor
Infiltration Infiltration + Response
Maneuvering Vehicle skill + Response


If you are running a command program to pilot, but not actually rigging. Everything uses Command Program + Skill (-2 for Remote operation)

Gunnery is still listed as a skill as Agility, because if you run a turret mounted in your meat body, you will still use agility. These are turrets without electronic connections to rig.

I don't see how Riggers have become less fun to play? Riggers are one of my favorite things to do, just with the amount of customization they can do, with little care of Essense or Magic, or Resonance that everyone else has to deal with, they just put everything in a drone or a vehicle.

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hermit
post Mar 20 2008, 01:34 PM
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Theoretically, he could do that better than in 3 (re matrix and rigging unification and more room in a rigger's body for mundane combat stuff; they're also much less of a Karma grave now than before thanks to less vehicle piloting skills and much more useful autopilots). Just the rules are much more absurd than before (warships have the same sensor suite as an emotitoy!), and with TMs and Hacker Adepts, mundane riggers have become obsolete.

And with FUBAR rules like anything rigger relevant, Riggers just aren't fun to play any more.

(HAUS?)

QUOTE
I don't see how Riggers have become less fun to play? Riggers are one of my favorite things to do, just with the amount of customization they can do, with little care of Essense or Magic, or Resonance that everyone else has to deal with, they just put everything in a drone or a vehicle.

- They have significantly less bonuses on stuff they do, meaning less insane stunt possibilities.
- vehicle modding rules are FUBAR (as I happily repeat over and over again)
- canon vehicles are FUBAR, making vehicle modding a somewhat depressing experience
- sensor rules are FUBAR
- little to no rigger-specific upgrades available, and the two that are are incompatible
- drone pilots are better than riggers jumped into a vehicle in anything they can do
- Haker Adepts and 'mancers degrade mundane riggers severely, with no hope for the mundanes to ever be anywhere close to as good as those guys are right from the beginning.
- any hacker can use drones, so what exactly would a rigger be good for?
- zero character progession possibilities, except become a decker, which is NOT a rigger character.
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 01:43 PM
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True, he could be all in 4, but then he becomes a hacker with a control rig (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In SR3, we had a player that when it came to B&E, Combat, Face....pretty much you name it short of Decking or Magic and he did it. In fact, we pretty much sat out of combat because he let the drones fly. There was also the HydroFoil Sailing Ship with a Ruthenium Coat that swooped through the Sea and ambushed 4 tankers carrying LOADS of swag (but to be fair we should have NEVER had it). The rest of the crew was basically there to be recorded by the Media (I really did like that campaign). It may have just been the player, but he pretty much made sure the group was outclassed in everyway. He was the one man Shadowrun team. I guess that left a bad taste in my mouth...but now, gone are the days of 1,000,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) starting riggers. And gone are the days of useful rigging it would seem. They are more relegated to the previous role of the Decker that provided overwatch and maybe had to open a door or two for the team. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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hermit
post Mar 20 2008, 01:55 PM
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Exactly.

And in SR3, a drone rigger would be an awesome OpFor, sure, but the less-than-subtle appearance of combat drones would render that in most runs I play (where stealth is important) usable. Drones cannot sneak past the guards pretending to be janitors.

I actually branched my ancient Drone Rigger out to be a support decker (mainly info gathering, she counldn't hack any serious data fortress) and face just so she'd have a use besides vehicle stuff.

Drones are very incredible in recon and surveillance. Using R3's construction rules, I built a class I uav type microdrone. RuPo'd and using vehicle stealth, those had hellish TNs to be detected (25+, my best ever being 37 with an awesome base of 20 by virtue of rerolling, partial cover and careful positioning with the sun in the drone's back).

As for the RuPo sail boat: You are aware that under SR3 rules, RuPo won't help against either radar or ultrasound, both being staples in basic (level 2 to 4) vehicle sensors, right? It's in the basic rules book.

But anyway, yeah, gone are the days of useful rigging. Sad really. Riggers were the only original concept SR had.
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE
Is for the RuPo sail boat: You are aware that under SR3 rules, RuPo won't help against either radar or ultrasound, both being staples in basic (level 2 to 4) vehicle sensors, right? It's in the basic rules book


Yep, but in SR3 all rules for Sensor and all were based on your Signature, which in turn was based on Power Plant. Sail was the power plant with the absolute least ammount of Sig (for ships anyway), add to that hydrofoils and a few other wiz gizmos and we were sitting at nigh undectable by Sensors. The thing left to worry about was Visual detection and that was what the RuPo took care of (and it did affect Signature I thought???), plus it was freaking cool (can you say 'Bird of Prey' in the WATER!!!) and it was CyberPirates, which is all about what's cool anyways (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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hermit
post Mar 20 2008, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE
Yep, but in SR3 all rules for Sensor and all were based on your Signature, which in turn was based on Power Plant.

Uhm, no. Signature was just a very botched rule. actually,m you had several Sig attributes, one against each of these sensors. RAM, thermal masking, RuPo, all worked only against one of these sensors. There was no signature increase technology canonically available to work against Ultrasound, for instance. Which is where our boat would fail.

But yeah, it does sound pretty cool. Just how the hell did you unload your captured tankers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 02:23 PM
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The Captain was a face (me) with 1,000,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) at start, and several pages worth of contacts. We also had a debt to settle for the cost of the boat and it was rather convenient to pay it off in trade (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In other words, we had a bad GM. And I always avoided playing the rigger, due in part to our designated rigger. He was usually in charge of the rules (he was our usual GM).
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hermit
post Mar 20 2008, 02:27 PM
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Sheesh, that's bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Riggers in SR3 weren't that ├╝ber, though. They were tremendous Karma and Money sinks (my ancient character was well rounded and competent (skill 4+) in all relevant vehicle classes after about 450 Karma, and I spent almost every second Karma I got on money to pay for repairs and lost Drones). They were, overall, powerful in what they could do, great in scouting and surveillance and surpreme in raw firepower, but also hat limitations and drawbacks - like most SR3 character types (in the end, Adepts were a tad overpowered, though).
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DireRadiant
post Mar 20 2008, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 19 2008, 09:27 PM) *
Huh. I was humming along, building a rigger under the new SR rules, and was somewhat surprised to find out that physical attributes are now used for jumped-in riggers doing remote operations. Gunnery now uses Agility; piloting now uses Reaction, even when in full VR with your body "switched off."

When did this happen? And how does it make sense, especially given that:

1) Mages still use Mental Attributes when astrally projecting, and
2) Cyborgs use the Vehicle/drone's attributes.

So, um, how does that work exactly? Shouldn't Gunnery be linked to Logic, like it was in SR3? Should Pilot(remote Operation) be linked to Intuition? Or should we go further and allow a rigger's high Str to provide recoil compensation, and the rigger's Body for vehicle damage resistance tests?


There are several different modes for Piloting vehicles, each has a different set of pools and modifiers. (BTW I feel this gives a lot more options for Riggers, and for all characters to rig.)

You can physically operate the vehicle. Physical Attributes + Skill + AR modifiers if using Ar assistance.
Remotely operating the Vehicle:
- In AR Mode, Command Program + Skill + AR mods
- In VR Mode (NOT Jumped In), Command Program + Skill + VR Mods
- In VR Mode Jumped In, Vehicle Response + Skill + VR Mods + VCR(If installed)
Ordering the Pilot to Operate Independently
PC does Command + Skill
Pilot does Pilot/Response/Sensor + Skill/Autosoft depending on the test.

To Pilot well in all three modes you would need high physical attributes, high command program and high response drone. However, if you have just one of these, you have one way to Pilot a vehicle well. In all three modes high skill helps. Street Sams have the chance to physically drive well, a Hacker can use a good Command program, and a Rigger can use VR mode, good response, and a VCR to outperform the others.
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hermit
post Mar 20 2008, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE
Street Sams have the chance to physically drive well, a Hacker can use a good Command program, and a Rigger can use VR mode, good response, and a VCR to outperform the others.

Oh yeah, he can just go ahead and outperform them with his leet +1 DP mod and one less hit nescessarys (minimum still one).

Using these rules, a high-agi streetsam can outclass a rigger most of the time, a perception adept will outperform any rigger ever with the FUBAR sensor rules in SR4, and a pilot/agent for ~15K will outperform any rigger anyway. Not to even mentioned what TMs wll be able to do after Unwired's tons of upgrades.
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 20 2008, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 20 2008, 09:33 AM) *
Ordering the Pilot to Operate Independently
PC does Command + Skill
Pilot does Pilot/Response/Sensor + Skill/Autosoft depending on the test.


Command program isn't needed to issue commands to the pilot. Unless the GM rules that your command is fairly complex, even then it would be just the Pilot rolling a "Logic/Intuition" (Pilot) test, to see if it understood.

Command is only needed for remote control (when you override the pilot). Part of the Agent/Pilot is being able to take commands.
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DireRadiant
post Mar 20 2008, 05:02 PM
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You still need to issue the command to the drone in the first place if it is going to follow instructions while acting on it's own remotely.

p. 238
"Alternately, a rigger can choose to issue
orders to a drone and then unsubscribe it and trust its dogbrain
to carry out the orders."

The issuing orders bit is where the command program comes in.
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 20 2008, 09:45 PM
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Hm. Okay, so instead of Agility you're wither using Sensor (makes NO sense) or Response (which Response? The Response of your commlink, or the Response that vehicles don't have as a listed stat?) when jumped-in, and Command when not jumped in.

Is that right?
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 20 2008, 10:36 PM
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The Response of the vehicle or drone. Which, you're right, they don't have as a listed stat, except:

By default, you use the Device Rating for all vehicle ratings (response, system, firewall and signal), and by default the Device Rating of vehicles and drones is 3. So the Response is 3 unless you upgrade it, like the Drone Rigger and the Smuggler sample characters have done.

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hobgoblin
post Mar 21 2008, 01:48 AM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Mar 20 2008, 06:02 PM) *
You still need to issue the command to the drone in the first place if it is going to follow instructions while acting on it's own remotely.

p. 238
"Alternately, a rigger can choose to issue
orders to a drone and then unsubscribe it and trust its dogbrain
to carry out the orders."

The issuing orders bit is where the command program comes in.


nope, command comes in when you turn the drone or vehicle into a oversized RC toy...

think of its as a virtual remote control...

lets just say that command is one of the worst named apps in the matrix chapter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Jaid
post Mar 21 2008, 03:21 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 20 2008, 10:39 AM) *
Oh yeah, he can just go ahead and outperform them with his leet +1 DP mod and one less hit nescessarys (minimum still one).

Using these rules, a high-agi streetsam can outclass a rigger most of the time, a perception adept will outperform any rigger ever with the FUBAR sensor rules in SR4, and a pilot/agent for ~15K will outperform any rigger anyway. Not to even mentioned what TMs wll be able to do after Unwired's tons of upgrades.


obviously you have no clue what you're doing in SR4 then.

a proper vehicle rigger can have a dice pool of 5 (response) + skill (should be 4 or 6 with specialisation) + 2 (Hot Sim) + 2 (Control Rig) + 2 (control rig boosters) or have a DP 2 lower but have 4 IPs.

that's 13 dice (15 within specialty) or 11 dice (13 within specialty) and 4 IPs. the best a drone pilot can get is 10 dice, and only 3 IPs. this isn't even including the possibility the drone rigger has invested in a skill of 6 (or 7 for that matter) or a response 6 chip to put into the drone. i'll admit you're right that the rigger won't be as good as an adept rigger, but hey, superspecialisation is what the adept is all about. the rigger at least will be able to do something other than just rig, the adept probably has no BPs left for much of anything. TMs can beat it too, but they're the poster child of "do one thing well, and completely and utterly suck in every single other category".

QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 20 2008, 06:36 PM) *
The Response of the vehicle or drone. Which, you're right, they don't have as a listed stat, except:

By default, you use the Device Rating for all vehicle ratings (response, system, firewall and signal), and by default the Device Rating of vehicles and drones is 3. So the Response is 3 unless you upgrade it, like the Drone Rigger and the Smuggler sample characters have done.


well, you're mostly right. security vehicles have a response of 4 to start off. arguably, military vehicles will have a response of 5 iirc. (that being their respective device ratings if you read further down the chart)
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