Huh. I was humming along, building a rigger under the new SR rules, and was somewhat surprised to find out that physical attributes are now used for jumped-in riggers doing remote operations. Gunnery now uses Agility; piloting now uses Reaction, even when in full VR with your body "switched off."

When did this happen? And how does it make sense, especially given that:

1) Mages still use Mental Attributes when astrally projecting, and
2) Cyborgs use the Vehicle/drone's attributes.

So, um, how does that work exactly? Shouldn't Gunnery be linked to Logic, like it was in SR3? Should Pilot(remote Operation) be linked to Intuition? Or should we go further and allow a rigger's high Str to provide recoil compensation, and the rigger's Body for vehicle damage resistance tests?

look closer. you use response for most attributes when rigging, but sensor when shooting.

when remote controlling (but not rigging) you use the rating of your command program.

too lazy to look up page numbers though, mostly because i want sleep

I think this was covered in the errata -- you use the appropriate Matrix attribute, or the corresponding attribute of the vehicle/drone. What those are is covered somewhere in the book, I think.

Nothing in the Errata. Do you mean the "FAQ"?

There's a blurb about issuing commands on page 220, which uses Command program + appropriate skill instead of attribute + skill. It's considered distinct from both VR and relying on the drone Pilot, somehow occupying a third, middle ground, but doesn't exactly explain how that works (are you in AR? VR? "Captain's chair?" which doesn't seem to have any rules anymore.

So yeah, confused.

The FAQ says 'sensor + gunnery'

The BBB says use agility.

Since the FAQ rule means its often better to leave the drone to run under its pilot and targeting auto-soft (since you have no sensible way to upgrade sensor) we went with the BBB rule.

Er, that's for the "sensor-enhanced" version, which apparently is even worse than that for nearly all possible values of sensor, as you get a further -3DP unless you're aiming at a large truck or something (see p. 162)

http://shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#8

I've said this before, and I'm happy to restate it: Rigger rules, and especially anything concerning Vehicles and Sensors, is FUBAR in SR4. They messed up Riggers so good they make no sense any more and seem to have no intention on changing that much (considering the relevant replies in the dev chat).

Funny, really, as Synner once stated SR4's aim would be to make Riggers MORE fun to play, not less.

Riggers were HAUS in SR3. Yes, they have been shafted. That should be fixed, but they don't need to make it so a rigger can replace a whole team (though with room in his bod for Skillwires, I'm not sure he can't now). 'Nuff said.

Your physical attributes have little to do with rigger, when you are actually Rigging (Cold-Sim or Hot-Sim VR)



If you are running a command program to pilot, but not actually rigging. Everything uses Command Program + Skill (-2 for Remote operation)

Gunnery is still listed as a skill as Agility, because if you run a turret mounted in your meat body, you will still use agility. These are turrets without electronic connections to rig.

I don't see how Riggers have become less fun to play? Riggers are one of my favorite things to do, just with the amount of customization they can do, with little care of Essense or Magic, or Resonance that everyone else has to deal with, they just put everything in a drone or a vehicle.

Theoretically, he could do that better than in 3 (re matrix and rigging unification and more room in a rigger's body for mundane combat stuff; they're also much less of a Karma grave now than before thanks to less vehicle piloting skills and much more useful autopilots). Just the rules are much more absurd than before (warships have the same sensor suite as an emotitoy!), and with TMs and Hacker Adepts, mundane riggers have become obsolete.

And with FUBAR rules like anything rigger relevant, Riggers just aren't fun to play any more.

(HAUS?)


- They have significantly less bonuses on stuff they do, meaning less insane stunt possibilities.
- vehicle modding rules are FUBAR (as I happily repeat over and over again)
- canon vehicles are FUBAR, making vehicle modding a somewhat depressing experience
- sensor rules are FUBAR
- little to no rigger-specific upgrades available, and the two that are are incompatible
- drone pilots are better than riggers jumped into a vehicle in anything they can do
- Haker Adepts and 'mancers degrade mundane riggers severely, with no hope for the mundanes to ever be anywhere close to as good as those guys are right from the beginning.
- any hacker can use drones, so what exactly would a rigger be good for?
- zero character progession possibilities, except become a decker, which is NOT a rigger character.

True, he could be all in 4, but then he becomes a hacker with a control rig

In SR3, we had a player that when it came to B&E, Combat, Face....pretty much you name it short of Decking or Magic and he did it. In fact, we pretty much sat out of combat because he let the drones fly. There was also the HydroFoil Sailing Ship with a Ruthenium Coat that swooped through the Sea and ambushed 4 tankers carrying LOADS of swag (but to be fair we should have NEVER had it). The rest of the crew was basically there to be recorded by the Media (I really did like that campaign). It may have just been the player, but he pretty much made sure the group was outclassed in everyway. He was the one man Shadowrun team. I guess that left a bad taste in my mouth...but now, gone are the days of 1,000,000 starting riggers. And gone are the days of useful rigging it would seem. They are more relegated to the previous role of the Decker that provided overwatch and maybe had to open a door or two for the team.

Exactly.

And in SR3, a drone rigger would be an awesome OpFor, sure, but the less-than-subtle appearance of combat drones would render that in most runs I play (where stealth is important) usable. Drones cannot sneak past the guards pretending to be janitors.

I actually branched my ancient Drone Rigger out to be a support decker (mainly info gathering, she counldn't hack any serious data fortress) and face just so she'd have a use besides vehicle stuff.

Drones are very incredible in recon and surveillance. Using R3's construction rules, I built a class I uav type microdrone. RuPo'd and using vehicle stealth, those had hellish TNs to be detected (25+, my best ever being 37 with an awesome base of 20 by virtue of rerolling, partial cover and careful positioning with the sun in the drone's back).

As for the RuPo sail boat: You are aware that under SR3 rules, RuPo won't help against either radar or ultrasound, both being staples in basic (level 2 to 4) vehicle sensors, right? It's in the basic rules book.

But anyway, yeah, gone are the days of useful rigging. Sad really. Riggers were the only original concept SR had.

Yep, but in SR3 all rules for Sensor and all were based on your Signature, which in turn was based on Power Plant. Sail was the power plant with the absolute least ammount of Sig (for ships anyway), add to that hydrofoils and a few other wiz gizmos and we were sitting at nigh undectable by Sensors. The thing left to worry about was Visual detection and that was what the RuPo took care of (and it did affect Signature I thought???), plus it was freaking cool (can you say 'Bird of Prey' in the WATER!!!) and it was CyberPirates, which is all about what's cool anyways

Uhm, no. Signature was just a very botched rule. actually,m you had several Sig attributes, one against each of these sensors. RAM, thermal masking, RuPo, all worked only against one of these sensors. There was no signature increase technology canonically available to work against Ultrasound, for instance. Which is where our boat would fail.

But yeah, it does sound pretty cool. Just how the hell did you unload your captured tankers?

The Captain was a face (me) with 1,000,000 at start, and several pages worth of contacts. We also had a debt to settle for the cost of the boat and it was rather convenient to pay it off in trade

In other words, we had a bad GM. And I always avoided playing the rigger, due in part to our designated rigger. He was usually in charge of the rules (he was our usual GM).

Sheesh, that's bad.

Riggers in SR3 weren't that über, though. They were tremendous Karma and Money sinks (my ancient character was well rounded and competent (skill 4+) in all relevant vehicle classes after about 450 Karma, and I spent almost every second Karma I got on money to pay for repairs and lost Drones). They were, overall, powerful in what they could do, great in scouting and surveillance and surpreme in raw firepower, but also hat limitations and drawbacks - like most SR3 character types (in the end, Adepts were a tad overpowered, though).

There are several different modes for Piloting vehicles, each has a different set of pools and modifiers. (BTW I feel this gives a lot more options for Riggers, and for all characters to rig.)

You can physically operate the vehicle. Physical Attributes + Skill + AR modifiers if using Ar assistance.
Remotely operating the Vehicle:
- In AR Mode, Command Program + Skill + AR mods
- In VR Mode (NOT Jumped In), Command Program + Skill + VR Mods
- In VR Mode Jumped In, Vehicle Response + Skill + VR Mods + VCR(If installed)
Ordering the Pilot to Operate Independently
PC does Command + Skill
Pilot does Pilot/Response/Sensor + Skill/Autosoft depending on the test.

To Pilot well in all three modes you would need high physical attributes, high command program and high response drone. However, if you have just one of these, you have one way to Pilot a vehicle well. In all three modes high skill helps. Street Sams have the chance to physically drive well, a Hacker can use a good Command program, and a Rigger can use VR mode, good response, and a VCR to outperform the others.

Oh yeah, he can just go ahead and outperform them with his leet +1 DP mod and one less hit nescessarys (minimum still one).

Using these rules, a high-agi streetsam can outclass a rigger most of the time, a perception adept will outperform any rigger ever with the FUBAR sensor rules in SR4, and a pilot/agent for ~15K will outperform any rigger anyway. Not to even mentioned what TMs wll be able to do after Unwired's tons of upgrades.

Command program isn't needed to issue commands to the pilot. Unless the GM rules that your command is fairly complex, even then it would be just the Pilot rolling a "Logic/Intuition" (Pilot) test, to see if it understood.

Command is only needed for remote control (when you override the pilot). Part of the Agent/Pilot is being able to take commands.

You still need to issue the command to the drone in the first place if it is going to follow instructions while acting on it's own remotely.

p. 238
"Alternately, a rigger can choose to issue
orders to a drone and then unsubscribe it and trust its dogbrain
to carry out the orders."

The issuing orders bit is where the command program comes in.

Hm. Okay, so instead of Agility you're wither using Sensor (makes NO sense) or Response (which Response? The Response of your commlink, or the Response that vehicles don't have as a listed stat?) when jumped-in, and Command when not jumped in.

Is that right?

The Response of the vehicle or drone. Which, you're right, they don't have as a listed stat, except:

By default, you use the Device Rating for all vehicle ratings (response, system, firewall and signal), and by default the Device Rating of vehicles and drones is 3. So the Response is 3 unless you upgrade it, like the Drone Rigger and the Smuggler sample characters have done.

nope, command comes in when you turn the drone or vehicle into a oversized RC toy...

think of its as a virtual remote control...

lets just say that command is one of the worst named apps in the matrix chapter

obviously you have no clue what you're doing in SR4 then.

a proper vehicle rigger can have a dice pool of 5 (response) + skill (should be 4 or 6 with specialisation) + 2 (Hot Sim) + 2 (Control Rig) + 2 (control rig boosters) or have a DP 2 lower but have 4 IPs.

that's 13 dice (15 within specialty) or 11 dice (13 within specialty) and 4 IPs. the best a drone pilot can get is 10 dice, and only 3 IPs. this isn't even including the possibility the drone rigger has invested in a skill of 6 (or 7 for that matter) or a response 6 chip to put into the drone. i'll admit you're right that the rigger won't be as good as an adept rigger, but hey, superspecialisation is what the adept is all about. the rigger at least will be able to do something other than just rig, the adept probably has no BPs left for much of anything. TMs can beat it too, but they're the poster child of "do one thing well, and completely and utterly suck in every single other category".



well, you're mostly right. security vehicles have a response of 4 to start off. arguably, military vehicles will have a response of 5 iirc. (that being their respective device ratings if you read further down the chart)

Uh-hunh. So a very important vehicle attribute isn't listed with vehicles. Thats ... really clever rules design.

Sorry, but a rating 6 autopilot and a rating 6 autosoft makes 12 not 10. Also, since when did control rig boosters give bonus dice? They give 3 IP without the rigger having to work in suicide mode (hot sim). Agents also do get all these AR and VR boni, don't they?

And a maxed agility streetsam (agi 9) with high-level skill (6) and reflex boosters 3 get 14 DP, 4 IP, and has no troubles with hot sim and him getting fried because he damages the vehicle (which, with SR4's vehicle damage rules, happens as soon as the vehicle is in combat). DP-wise, he outclasses the rigger except when the riggers really wants to die and uses hot sim. Please note that the streetsam also has access to VR and AR Boni, so don't cound those ... and you get an as-good-as-a-rigger driver who isn't actually a rigger at all. If the Sam uses high-level skillwires, he doesn't even need to invest much into the driving skills.

Finally we seem to agree that mundane riggers just are outclassed without any chance to ever live up to them by both mancers and hacker adepts.

Can you have a rating 6 autosoft? I thought they were limited to 4, like skillsofts?

Or Reflex Boosters higher than 1?

And driving in VR means you don't get your Agility/Reaction to anything, because you're not moving. You're back to Response again.

I do agree, though, that not listing a Response for vehicles is... really stupid. It'd be like not listing Rating for cameras... except they do that too.

They were? Okay, my bad then I guess.

Then you'd need to squeeze a bit, like putting in Smartgun with sensors for targetting and shooting and drive options for similar boni elsewhere.

Anyway, that's still not notably less efficient than a well developed rigger character.

Program ratings are capped by Response.

Not sure how an Pilot/Agent gets AR bonuses, nor where an Pilot/Agent would get the Sim Module to get VR and the Hot Sim bonuses.

Not sure how the street sam can get VR bonuses while physically driving car and not suffer from the -6 penalty for doing so.

Why yes, it's true, most other character archetypes can drive or operate drones perfectly fine in a myriad of ways. Driving well and operating drones is no longer restricted to the character with the VCR.

If a street sam spends so much BP to drive so well, are they really just a street sam anymore? You could think of them as a rigger focussed on physical driving, who can also shoot a gun. A Street Sam with a Pilot skill at 6 certainly isn't going to have a weapon skill at 6 as well.

AR Boni then. Still makes him a much better driver and have more IP than a rigger whose raison d'etre is supposed to be that he can drive stuff better than anyone.


Yes, as they still have all that combat cyber installed. They're street sams who can drive well.


Because ...?


And that's why riggers in SR4 are obsolete and not fun to play any more, which is what I've been saying all along. Thanks for agreeing.

I think hackers/riggers need more ways to boost their commlinks. Both of these are evolved characters running 4 IP's, granted the evolution was the Sammy needed Wired Reflexes 3, and the Rigger just needed a Response 6 System.

The sammy
Reaction (9) + Skill (6) + AR Bonus (+1 IIRC)

The Rigger
Response (6) + Skill (6) + CR (+2) + VR (+2)

So effectively they are both running about 16 dice. Ones all in AR, the other in VR. The responses for commlinks are capped a lot harder then attributes. Which is why even though hackers can beat most systems their DP's are usually much lower than DP's people are using on meat body abilities.

Also note that common sense would dictate that the Rigger will need the Response 6 in his commlink, but also he'll have to upgrade every single vehicle he wants to drive with a Rating 6 Response, as well as make it rigger adapted. The street sammy can swipe any vehicle and be rolling his dice. So I can see hermit's point that riggers really aren't that great.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong about the AR bonus.. Because if I remember something was a -1 Threshold instead of a DP bonus...

Well yeah, that might give them a little edge, but wouldn't helt all that much against Technomancers and Adept Hackers.


And a simsense booster.


And again, considering Riggers DON'T interact with matrix but with real enemies, this is just bloody brilliant rules design.

As for the -1 threshold, I think that applied to VR vehicle controls or the VCR and weas supposed to represent the VCR's leet bonus (which then would be worth shit in combat).

There are very specific limits on autosofts, skillwires, and agent ratings, typically either a rating cap -in the case of autosofts and skillwires - or an availability cap at chargen - in the case of agents. Other limitations of some of those options will be expanded upon in Unwired. Pilots/Agent do not get AR bonuses, nor any VR benefits not already derived from their basic Matrix stats (such as the high IPs).

I'm not sure what people mean about not listing Device Ratings (for cameras, vehicles and drones or GPS systems and Maglock sequencers for that matter) since we deliberately chose not to list Device ratings with each individual item and instead grouped them in broad categories on the table on p. 214, SR4. Or maybe you've just missed it?

Unless otherwise modified, vehicles and drones have Device ratings per the list on that page (buy a Eurocar Westwind and it has a default Device Rating of 3 per the table). Should a rigger chose to modify the device to enhance one or several Matrix Ratings (as the Sample Characters have done) then the rules for Commlink Customization on p.240 apply.


I beg to disagree.

Riggers are specialists, but they are far more versatile than other "driver" characters types will be. A dedicated driver/street sam build is going to be really good at driving around with Pilot: Ground Craft (depending on the built this will likely be in detriment to his own Combat skills to be on par, btw), almost comparable to a rigger in skill. However, that only lasts until the rigger pulls a EW or hacking trick.

A competent rigger will also have more specialized ware (Augmentation added some options there), he will have more diversified skillset, and his equipment will be much more versatile. He should be just as good with a car, a rotor drone, a surveillance drone, a crawler, and/or a security system. Also because a rigger is a specialization of the hacker, he will also have a number of tricks up his sleeve (EW and other tricks both defensive and offensive) that a non-rigger specialist like the aforementioned street sam won't have (unless of course he isn't a street sam but a rigger whose splurged on getting wired up for physical combat too).

Now, are riggers as compartimentalized or do they excel above and beyond everyone else like they did in SR3? No. A specialist driver (empashis on the specialist) build will now give him a run for his money in one type of vehicle and a good hacker stands a fair chance of being a good rigger. However there are very real limitations on Skill sets, hard/software selection, and gear choices that are very different from both general hacker types and hyperspecialized non-rigger drivers. Furthermore the benefits granted by going full VR can be significant for a rigger who has upgraded his drones, systems, and autosoft programs. Finally with the options opened in Unwired, hackers will have to make much tougher decisions on where to invest differentiating even further the hacker specialist and the hacker rigger.

Good cases can be made for both Technomancers and Hacker Adepts showing up riggers, but again the former are rare and requisite BP expenditures on Magic/Powers on the latter make a dedicated rigger much more versatile and hence much more of a tactical asset in a wider range of situations. YMMV as usual.

It's less than brilliant to have to go through the entire book and find these rules, rather than have that at least a pointer chapter in the vehicles section. Because it IS kind of a leap to assume vehicles, for modification purposes, are commlinks. It's badly usable.

And SR4 was aiming to make Riggers more easy to use, less of a rules train wreck and more fun to play, right?

Besides, Riggers as characters who invest a lot of BP, money and essence into vehicle controls stuff make no sense if all that is reduced to nothingness by other characteras who aren't even primarily meant to be able to do this.

I disliked how, in previous editions, you were either a dedicated rigger who could do little else, or you were not allowed to drive. The difference in ability was so vast that if you weren't going to play a rigger you might as well not take a vehicle skill, 'cause you'll just get killed the first time you meet a rigger anyway. SR4's toning down of that difference is great.

I like that simply being able to drive well, and even rig a bit, is less of a full-time-job than before.

I also feel like the rigger got a little overly-gutted, so I'm very much looking forward to them getting a few options added back in Unwired, which I think will help restore their niche. It's a fine line, but I expect Unwired will put them right back where I want them.

riggers are perfectly playable should you happen to actually read the rules hermit. it ISN'T any kind of leap at all to assume that vehicles have a bloody device rating when it says explicitly that they have a device rating.

and finally, you obviously haven't even tried building a rigger. because i will tell you now, it is dirt cheap to be a rigger in 4th edition. it isn't a huge investment of BPs, resources, skills, or anything else. and if you actually had the slightest clue what you were talking about, you would know that.

Simsense booster is 65,000 12F, perfectly legal for a starting character. Hackers can get 4 IP out of creation (poor Techies )



I think we're looking for Device ratings in regards to sensors, and how to upgrade our sensors. Does that table have prices for general sensor upgrades (I don't have my book with me), I might of overlooked wording. General Device ratings of vehicles (minus the lack of distinction for security/military level except for trying to make case by case ruling based on fluff), I don't think are a problem with Matrix attributes and how to upgrade them.

Sure, the supposedly god-awful SR3 Rigge rrules also made sense if you actually read them and scoped them together from two books and various supplements. It's just that nothing has changed there though SR4 supposedly aimed to change that.


Oh, I did, and I read the rules, and I find riggers a) aren't good for much any more, because you can do what they can without needing dedicated riggerware (and yes, ~100.000 IS a huge investment in SR4 chargen) and b) find the rules lacking and in parts just not working (as with sensors, for instance). Not to mention the sad selection of vehicles in Arsenal and the ridiculous modding rules.

I'm not sure what you're getting at because the reference to the Sample Device table is right there in the Wireless World chapter under the header called Device Ratings (imagine that!). The same header that describes what Device Ratings are, why we use them, how they relate to the standard Matrix Ratings, and that they can be broken up/customized like the standard Matrix Ratings. I'm assuming you missed it?


They are more fun to play. You should build a character and try it.


So to boil this down: You are complaining that a non-rigger driver that hyperspecializes in a particular type of vehicle can give a rigger a run for his money (in driving strictly speaking, because god forbid the rigger pulls any vehicle-related spoofing, hacking or EW tricks that are also his perview). And that this somehow reduces to nothing a competent rigger's ability to swipe control of the street sam's car (Rating 3 device) right from under him, or that he can launch and control 2 rotordrones while still keeping up with the non-rigger, or that he will be equally versatile deploying crawler drones to back his team in a tactical situation...

That is, of course, ignoring the BP cost of building a relatively versatile rigger is significantly lower than the hyperspecialist street sam driver to begin with.

My rigger did this before (not swiping vehicles, my first rigger had minimal hacking skills). But I was involved in a street race at the same time as my team was doing a run, so running hot I was piloting my vehicle, their vehicle, and running the weapons systems on their vehicle. Good times! This can't be done via AR (very well), and a pilot is restricted to its own device (it can't be controlling multiples). So there's how the rigger is differentiated he's the one driving 3 cars.

I did. I also tried converting a 3rd Edition rigger to 4th. Both were rather disillusioning experiences compared to what a rigger could do in 3rd.



Because Riggers don't need vehicle skills? For all I know, they do. Also, where should he deploy the crawlers from? Besides, the rigger would need to run the drones on autopilot, which is just what the driver sam could do, launching them with a push of a button. Same with crawlers. Wireless security can be handled with programs running on the drones, just as a rigger would, and an IC cascade that resets the drone being attacked, kicking the attacker out, just like a rigger would do. Yeah, the driver sam might be a tad more expensive to build than the rigger, but he could additionally fill a combat role and generally do meaningful stuff. I don't really see what Rigger characters can do in EW that hacker characters cannot.

As I've noted the margin by which riggers trounced all comers was purposefully reduced. It's perfectly fine that you don't like it. It just doesn't mean they're broken or obsolete.


I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me. I was referring to the samurai needing to specialize to keep up with a rigger.


From wherever he wants. The point is if the team was invading a facility the rigger would be equally useful running multiple drones as the samurai driver wouldn't (though he'd have his combat skills which might or might not be dimished due to the driving specialization needed to keep up with the rigger.


Strictly speaking the rigger could also multipresence into two or more drones in VR (he takes a hit to his dicepools, but depending on the build he's still more than a match for a drone's Pilot).


I'm really not sure what you mean here, how familiar are you with the hacking and spoofing rules? A rigger who's good at hacking can send a chasing car into a wall before IC even has time to react by spoofing the AR controls that sam is using. But I'll save this discussion for after Unwired comes out.


That's the thing the competent rigger can do all of that out of the box. He can perform on par with non-hyperspecialist combat characters and he can match a hacker.

Rigger concept:
- hacker skillset and gear, priority on electronic warfare and matrix combat rather than stealth
- substantial spending on a swarm of replaceable drones
- substantial spending on a wide array of tools (Hardware, Armorer, div. vehicle BR skills)
- if DIY piloting is desired, you need vehicle skills and gunnery (OPTIONAL!)
- high perception skill

You need skillwires if you want to do other things, too. But you are a hacker, and you contribute substantial firepower. You are not and never were justifying your worth by driving the getaway vehicle.

You can:
- provide two microdrones to scout ahead
- provide two rotordrones as flexible firebase
- provide one ground combat drone as area denial weapon
- hack at least minor nodes, but most will be on par with a real decker

If you got the route of AR network rigging, you can even pretty much accompany the team physically.

With a car that routes it's wifi communication through an onboard gateway commlink (5/5/5/5), and that link being outfitted with a rating 5 firewall and two lv. 4 agents running lv. 4 analyse constantly, the rigger would have a hard time just slicing in, especially since he is NOT a dedicated hacker. That's a sensible online security package for professional security force vehicles. Also, the driver sam might just (!) switch off his car's wireless or operate the car in hidden mode.

Then again, much about networking is guesswork until unwired comes out, so I guess we should save this till then.


He can? With pistols 4 and no BP for other weapons skills, let alone martial arts, or reflex enhancement cyberware? And ont he topic of the hacker, drones, icing and firewalling them, and all the other extras rigger drones need, also don't come cheap, so I doupt the rigger can use his remaining startup money to buy himself lv.2 wired or synaptics.


Allright, that MIGHT be interesting - I thought that was possible only within the Matrix.


That would be a Decker with drones, not a rigger who could actually use them. Or even a streetsam with drone support.

That's not a "sensible online security package," that's military-grade equipment. Once you've hit the six stars on your GTA:2070 game you deserve to fail unless you've got a team helping you out.

Yeah, well, that's one of the Big Three problems with the wireless matrix in general (Agent Smith and the Hackastack are the other two).

I agree this discussion should keep but I'm just going to note that in all the characters that I've seen come and go on Dumpshock in 3 years I have yet to see anyone but a rigger modifying their vehicle.


He can do the things you stated, probably not at the level the street sam can but then again that's not his focus (just like the car driving street sam won't be able to compete when the rigger decides to pull out his rotor drones). It's a false comparison, they are different characters with similar but different specialities. Neither is obsolete and neither rules uncontested.


That's why hacking skills are important. He can crack a lot of software and save himself a bundle.


You keep implying that rigging is somehow different from other Matrix actions. With the streamlining of rigger and hacker rulesets it isn't. "Jumping in" happens over the Matrix - a drone is just another node. In fact it has to be subscribed like any other node to allow you to jump in.

Um, Rigging is all done via the matrix, either in AR or VR. Drones are just another node. Rigging is merely hacking for vehicles.

Edit: Spooky! Synner used the exact same phrase while I was reading other windows and writing my post.

A decker with drones, yes. Very much able to use drones, as opposed to anyone unable to defend a wireless network. Considering the way you have to go anyway (unless you intend to pay for software and repairs, and want to forego a 50% rebate on hardware), you make a natural full-blown hacker.

The streetsam part works with 300k¥ and free software, maybe less; with unmodded rules I´d go lighter and buy wired 1 and trauma dampers + eyes/ears, then get upgrades later.

My current GM recently complaeined about one player whose character had NOT armoured her Bulldog Stepvan (which subsequently was shot up by a bunch of orks on bikes). I am used to rinners ALWAYS modding their vehicles at the very least with decent armour, engine tuning, all the SR3 spoofing stuff and onboard terminals (turrets and weapons are optional but bnot unheared of).


Though not on chargen, right? But yes, as a progressing character, that would make sense, though that'd prohibit the rigger agaionn from getting himself better skills in any vehicle group.

And yes, I haven't yet come to terms with specialisation being notably less special in SR4.

Apologies, I should have been clearer. Please allow me to rephrase my post:
"I'm just going to note that in all the characters that I've seen come and go on Dumpshock in 3 years, I have yet to see anyone but a rigger modifying their vehicle's Matrix Ratings."