 Conjuring adepts and allies, here we go again. |
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 Dec 6 2003, 05:49 PM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
No, the spells aren't supposed to come from the conjurer's spell list. Nothing in the rules even comes close to saying that. It's assumed the character knows the spell, and failing that it's assumed they have the formula. Some things just don't need to be written out, and it's foolish to assume the opposite simply because they don't specifically tell you as much.
It's exactly the same as how the rules never tell you you have to use the restroom, so naturally you never do as the heavens simply open up and absorb waste products from you or whatever... right? |
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Dec 6 2003, 06:19 PM
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#27
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
It doesn't actually say that anywhere, though. It's assumed that the spell comes from their spell list because that's what the previous sentence in the same paragraph addresses. You yourself said that the context of the rules was clear in this regard. And as I've said before, in a world where a person can train themselves to a high level in a skill that they have never ever used, strict canon must continue to be applied. Me, I have no such problems because my conjurers don't have sorcery, my spirits don't have cyber-implant combat, and my armless people haven't trained themselves to be tennis pros. If you're throwing common sense out the window with sorcery-trained conjurers, then you can't bring it back by assuming the presense of spell formulae :P |
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Dec 6 2003, 06:30 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Actually, you know... you're right. The rules *specifically* state that neither a formula nor an instructor who knows the spell are required for an ally spirit to learn a spell.
The last sentence states, and I quote, "after creation, the magician must learn spells for the ally, paying the usual Karma cost, as described under the Sorcery power, p. 118 ." Going to page 118 and reading the Sorcery power, you then find this quote: "A spirit, however, does not need the usual tools and props of magicians. Neither does a spirit need a teacher or spell formula because it is always in tune with mana, the heart and source of magic." The only thing that's required is the time to learn the spell and the Karma for it. For Ally Spirits, the conjurer need merely supply the Karma and share the time with the spirit as it learns the spell. The only downfall is that a newly created Ally Spirit doesn't get a free spell from an aspected conjurer because an aspected conjurer has no spell for it to gain for free; a special trait of Ally Spirits. Thanks for forcing me to read up on it. Clears a lot of problems and questions up. |
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Dec 6 2003, 06:52 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Holy crap, I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole. I can only imagine the immense size this thread could achieve with such delicious looking bait.
So do what you like. Ally spirits won't use rules for free spirits in my games, though. |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:04 PM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You're the one who referenced it and wanted to stick to canon.
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Dec 6 2003, 07:26 PM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
You know, although it states that the Ally would have a Sorcery skill equal to the Conjurers, it never says anything about the needing a Sorcery roll to add a formulae into a Ally Formula. You know why? Because you don't need Sorcery to add a 'spell' to an Ally formula, only to add the Sorcery skill. You're not writing a spell here, you're adjusting the personification of mana (Ie: a spirit). So, to answer your question more clearly, he's not writing a spell formula into the ally formula, he's writing an ally formula that knows a spell (or 50). No matter how you decide to twist the context, it will still be Canon that a Conjurer can write a spell into an Ally Formula without having the spell formula, or the spell. Sphynx |
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Dec 6 2003, 07:50 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
So, you guys are saying that not only can a conjurer summon an ally at character creation, it can cast spells and provide spell defense too?
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Dec 6 2003, 08:01 PM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Yes, that's exactly what we're saying. ;) But remember, you pay force points in spell points, so just how many spells are you going to be able to teach it, and are you willing to learn Sorcery at Char-Gen for your Ally, since you'll never be able to use your Sorcery skill for anything else? Highest Force you could start with is force 4 for 30 of your 50 karma cap. A few Force 4 spells, and spell defense for a spirit that's little more than Cannon Fodder in some games (based on that Force).
Sphynx |
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Dec 6 2003, 11:03 PM
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#34
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not according to SR3. Mundanes can learn knowledge skills related to magic, but to learn Active Magic skills requires at least a Magic Attribute of 1. Those accounts of rituals suddenly working are because the practitioner actually had a Magic Rating, even if it wasn't much use before the awakening.
Designing spells does not require knowledge of Active Magic skills, but is covered under the Spell Design knowledge skill. |
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Dec 7 2003, 02:25 AM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
page number, fortune? i've looked all through SR3, and nowhere do i see a restriction on learning skills.
edit: can't find anything in MitS, either. |
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Dec 7 2003, 02:37 AM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The only restriction is that you have to use the Sorcery active skill to learn a spell. To have Sorcery, you have to have a Magic of 1. It's a ridiculous rule, but I do understand why they did it (for simplicity's sake) -- they just failed to see the implications.
At the very least, you should be able to default to Spell Design or Sorcery Background to learn a spell. There's absolutely no reason for it to be restricted to magicians, even if it serves no real purpose for anyone but a magician to learn them. |
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Dec 7 2003, 02:40 AM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.
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Dec 7 2003, 02:41 AM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
where's it say you need a magic of 1 to have sorcery? like i said, the only places i see that talk about it say use.
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Dec 7 2003, 02:41 AM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
In the skill description in the Skills chapter. SR3 p. 87.
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Dec 7 2003, 02:42 AM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ack. jesus, how'd i miss that?
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Dec 7 2003, 02:43 AM
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#41
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If you think that's weird, check out the bit about what happens when you burn-out and hit Magic 0. SR3 p. 160, last paragraph of "Magic Loss."
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Dec 7 2003, 02:47 AM
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#42
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
...that's so wrong.
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Dec 7 2003, 11:40 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
That's a previous version rule - the lack of knowledge skills meant that anybody could have the magical skills, but treat them just like knowledge skills and not actually be able to use them. Without close reading I'd probably have thought the same thing (not that I'd want a character with zero magic wasting points on sorcery). I'd probably overrule that (and the burn-out) rule and make them keep it, with the background skill at the appropriate level, rather than the (presumably) higher rated active skill |
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Dec 7 2003, 11:57 PM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Sorry, but it is not a rule from a previous version. As Doc pointed out, you can find the rule in the SR3 Core rulebook, on page 160. |
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Dec 8 2003, 05:04 AM
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#45
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Look at it this way. Do you demand that all spellcasters buy the spell formulas for the spells on their list? Are they even required to? No? Well, then, why should allies be any different? If a mage doesn't need a formula to start with, then the ally doesn't, either. |
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Dec 8 2003, 05:21 AM
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#46
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If they are learning it in-game (ie. after chargen), I do. They either buy a the spell formula, or create it themselves, but the presence of a formula is necessary for the mage or shaman to learn the spell. |
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Dec 8 2003, 06:34 AM
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#47
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And, as previously stated and referenced in MitS, spirits -- both Free and Ally -- don't need a formula. They just have to spend the time (and in an Ally's case, that means the Conjurer has to spend the time with them) and Karma (and in the Ally's case, that Karma comes from the Conjurer) to learn a spell. They specifically do not need an instructor or a formula.
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Dec 8 2003, 06:46 AM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And if you read my post, it specifically answers a question about mages. :) Be that as it may, I believe that the canon rules state that the Spirit doesn't need the formula because it specifically states that the summoner learns the spell for it. Nowhere does it state that the Spirit's master does not need a formula to learn a spell, only that the Spirit itself doesn't need it. |
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Dec 8 2003, 08:32 AM
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#49
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Says that for post-creation, not pre-creation. At Ally Creation, no spell has to be 'learned' and no formula is required to write a spell into the Ally formula. Sphynx |
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Dec 8 2003, 08:37 AM
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#50
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As far as I knew, that was what we were discussing. Cain replied to Zazen about paying Karma to learn spells, which is post-creation.
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