 Conjuring adepts and allies, here we go again. |
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 Dec 8 2003, 06:04 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751  |
Throwing oil on the fire:
Stricktly speaking conjuring adepts cannot use the enchanting skill either. Most of this discussion is the main reason why so many house rules exist for SR magic. I have a lot of HRs for aspected magicians to encourage players to limit themselves. Has anyone played a conjuror who had more than one ally spirit? |
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Dec 8 2003, 06:16 PM
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#52
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Huh? Where does it say that a Conjuror can't have Enchanting, musta missed that one....?
Sphynx |
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Dec 8 2003, 09:45 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
Neither can sorcerors. They are aspected for one skill only. Moving along to totem aspected magicians, to the best of my recolection only Creator gives a bonus to enchanting allowing them to use the skill. Also there is a voudoo aspect that I can't recall the name of that allows the use of enchanting.
In the SR3 book it states to the effect: Conjurors can only use conjuring and sorcerors can only use sorcery. There is no amendment to this rule in MitS. Going back to SR2 this was also the standard rule. Only Full Magicians have the ability to use all three skills. As far as I know the wording doen't prohibit learning the skill, only effective use. GM's could be nice and allow you to use it as a complimentary skill to your Talismongering Knowledge skill rolls. |
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Dec 8 2003, 10:16 PM
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#54
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Mine doesn't say that. My book says:
Doesn't say they can ONLY use Conjuring, so you'd have to go by what the skill says, and the only limitation I see in my description of Enchanting is Awakened with a Magic score of at least 1. I think you're wrong there boss.
Sphynx |
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Dec 8 2003, 10:28 PM
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#55
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
As far as I know, even physads can use Enchanting - they're Awakened and they have a magic score. Of course, they might not have any idea about how to make a spell focus if they don't use spells, but I have no doubt they could make a bad-ass weapon-focus if that was their specialty...
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Dec 8 2003, 10:41 PM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Enchanting, just like Build/Repair Skills, are wholly independant from other Active Skills. An adept can make a Specific Spell Focus just as easily as a Weapon Focus. The same is true with other Build/Repair Skills; you don't have to have Computers to build a cyberdeck with Computers B/R. The skill includes all the skill you need (novel concept, huh?).
The only exception that I know of is Anchoring Foci, and even then you simply have to know the Anchoring Metamagic Technique. No additional skill is required and it's a notable exception to the norm (which is why they specifically mention it). |
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Dec 8 2003, 10:50 PM
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#57
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Yeah, okay, fair enough, even a physad could probably make whatever. But though I realize there are no rules really for it, would you trust specialty equipment designed and made by people who don't know a thing about its use? Somebody who didn't know the first thing about computers and how they work shouldn't be designing and building computers, either. They can put peg A into slot B or whatever (raw telesma A into orichalcum loop B?) but they don't understand why, so they can't really do the thing justice.
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Dec 8 2003, 10:52 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
Damn, ain't I an old fogy. If so that really brings to task the existance of that voudoo apected magician that I still can't remember the name of. Why did they specifically mention they were able to enchant if all conjurors can? Especiall with all the negatives they heap on them. Carrying around an active focus is not my idea of an advantage.
Still lingering in SR2 sometimes... |
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Dec 8 2003, 11:00 PM
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#59
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Are you thinking of obeyifa? MitS says that they can create specially designed foci, not the same as going out of the way to say they can enchant. The fact that they can enchant is a given.
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Dec 8 2003, 11:05 PM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The thing is, they do know how it works, just like engineers know how what they're building work. They just don't know how to use it.
Do you really think the people who built your car are stunt driving dynamos? |
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Dec 8 2003, 11:22 PM
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#61
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
No, but I think that the people who designed my car (which is what we're really talking about here - you can't just go out and get the blueprints for a focus, because every one is different, depending on the materials available, etc) knew how to drive a car and knew what it meant to have anti-lock breaks vs. non-anti-lock breaks, or 4-wheel drive vs. 2-wheel drive. They weren't stunt drivers, no, but they had to ask themselves what they think is important in a car, in their own driving experience. That's what makes a great car design. Physads (and conjurors) would have a much more difficult time designing something they haven't ever used and couldn't ever use. Also, I do think that physads could make spell foci etc. I'm not saying they can't. I just think that they'd make ones that aren't as good as ones that magicians that can cast spells can make. Its such a nitpicky point its doubtfull that I would ever make rules about it, but I think it adds to the flavor of the game world, separates the products of any given enchanter apart from any other given one (among other things). |
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Dec 9 2003, 12:04 AM
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#62
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Ford (feel free to insert anyone else if you feel like nitpicking) certainly didn't know how to drive a car before he built his. Up until computers became mainstream, you could rest assured knowing that most of the techies repairing yours barely knew how to turn it on (and even today you're lucky to find one who has a half a wit about them). I doubt if most aeronautical engineers know how to fly those jet planes they're churning out on their CAD programs. They may know the theories behind it, and what someone else has to do to use them, but they themselves most likely don't have first hand experience doing it.
Just like Enchanters. That's why it's its own unique skill, and not one derived of from any others. You can't even default to it from another skill. The Tech-Wiz archetype includes all kinds of Build/Repair skills without the actual skill to use them. I guess he's the last one you'd want working on your stuff, too, eh? |
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Dec 9 2003, 12:26 AM
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#63
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
From the official FAQ:
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Dec 9 2003, 12:32 AM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That's so silly. I guess we should start requiring everyone with a Build/Repair skill of any type to have the base skill, too, else not be able to do anything with it, too. Might as well get rid of Background Knowledge skills as well; afterall, if you can't actually do it, you shouldn't be able to know how it works, either. It's insane.
It's bad enough you have to have a Magic Attribute of 1 for those types of skills, but it just makes a guy wonder how all those burnt-out maged-turned-Talismongers that all but makeup the majority of the industry manage to make anything. Afterall, they can't use any magical skills any longer. But hey, at least they can still make fetishes and ritual materials without having to know how to use those. :please: |
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Dec 9 2003, 12:34 AM
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#65
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
On the bright side, it's the FAQ. It's an official suggestion, but it ain't canon. That's what we have, that there's no answer, and unless they release an errata you can rule however you want.
~J |
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Dec 9 2003, 12:35 AM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I could rule however I wanted either way, silly. :)
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Dec 9 2003, 12:41 AM
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#67
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No you couldn't. The now-jobless FASA rules-enforcement teams would come and break your legs. It says it in SR3. ;)
~J |
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Dec 9 2003, 12:45 AM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Bah. I have a katana and a dikoted ally spirit. I ain't afraid of those wussies.
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Dec 9 2003, 12:55 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
Hey Doc, you got that right?
your Ally Spirit is dikoted, and you have a katana? |
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Dec 9 2003, 02:23 AM
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#70
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
After having thought about it... You're definately right on some points there. Probably most aeronautical engineers have never flown a plane, etc. Dunno about Ford, et al. So I will actually probably do that differently in my games (not that its ever come up, but if it did...). I'll probably go against the FAQ suggestion on this one. OTOH, I still think that design can benefit from a working knowledge of how to use something. Don't you think that if an engineer had actually used his products, he'd be better able to design things? |
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Dec 9 2003, 02:27 AM
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#71
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think it's perfectly reasonable that people that are only in touch with the conjuring aspects of magic (for example) are limited to enchanting things that have to do with Spirits, being that's what they know, as opposed to the magical things they don't have a clue about.
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Dec 9 2003, 02:29 AM
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#72
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Wow. That explains a lot. I always wondered where Polaris and toturi worked... :wobble: |
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Dec 9 2003, 02:33 AM
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#73
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Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700 |
Yeah, but if you think about the Enchanting skill - you are going to learn all the theory that comes with it. Whether or not you can actually cast spells, if you learn Enchanting you get a tutorial on how to make things for people that do. You don't need to know why your foci do what they do, just that they do. I do think that a full magician could probably make a better spell focus, knowing what he knows, than a conjuror could, but I still think a conjuror could make one if he learned Enchanting. |
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Dec 9 2003, 04:16 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Right.
A character with Spell Design doesn't have to have Sorcery in order to design spells. Because Spell Design includes all the knowledge and know-how you need to... that's right... design spells. The same is and should be true of Enchanting. It includes all the know-how you need to create foci and everything else the skill entails, because that's what the skill is all about. Just like Electronics B/R includes all the know-how you need to build and repair any and all Electronics gadgets. |
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Dec 9 2003, 04:22 AM
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#75
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, if Enchanting has nothing to do with how the character interacts with Magic, why is a Magic Attribute of 1 a necessity?
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