calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[Larme]

...

I'm pretty much on your side. I think you make some good points. I just wanted to say that the fact of a mage blowing mundanes out of the water at high karma shouldn't be cause for alarm ever. If they don't even do that, then obviously there's nothing to complain about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Keep magic out of this. Mages do different things than mundanes. Technomancers chime in on what mundanes can do and beat them at it. And Technos aren't mages, they work differently and are fairly unbalanced in just how powerful they are, combining the relative power of mages and the aspect of doing what mundanes do, only better, of adepts.

I won't keep magic out of this. Mages only do some things that mundanes can't, most pertinently astral stuff. But a lot of their abilities directly encroach on what mundanes can do, namely combat. Why should a sammy bother, if a mage can hurl a force 12 stunball and knock out all the enemies? Mages at high karma can spell themselves up to make samurai look weak by comparison. The downside? It takes a lot of karma to get there. And in the meantime, the samurai will rock everything. And the samurai at high karma can still be useful because though he is less powerful, he is more versatile. And what about Adepts? Virtually nothing they do is unique to Adepts. They duplicate sammies, but they have no hard cap like sammies.

Technomancers are just magical versions of hackers. They do what hackers do, only they start out worse and eventually (very eventually) become better. It's the same for Magicians, it's the same for Adepts. The thing you are whinging about is endemic to the system. It is a core dynamic of Shadowrun. The only way to solve this problem is to remove magic (and resonance) from the game. If you want to play a mundane, you have to accept that while they have advantages, they also have disadvantages. You're really not even complaining about their disadvantages though, you're just upset because one archetype, far in the future, can possibly become better than another (and people don't even agree with you fully on that, so it's questionable HOW much better they can become). Deal with it! If TMs are so great, play one! If you don't play one, maybe it's because they're not so great? It's not like someone held a gun to your head and say "play a mundane rigger," and now you're frustrated that riggers aren't good enough for you. You get to choose to play a mundane, and you get to choose how to deal with the consequences. You can house rule TMs out of rigging, you make make a TM, or you can just play the game without worrying whether some other archetype could be theoretically better than you.

[Fuchs]

Not everyone wants to play a TM (or a metahuman), no matter how great they are.

[Ryu]

The key problem in this case is not the TM vs. mundane character advancement. A TM can, from the get-go, create program ratings a mundane hacker/rigger can never hope to achive. And the Command mechanic allows to use this program rating with almost any skill. Once one has figured out how TMs work, basically all matrix mechanics break apart, too. See Support Operation used on the Attack CF, or on Stealth CF. It is beyond me how the wireless rules survived playtesting. Lets all hope for Unwired.

Once you have taken away Command Ratings that leave the expected scale of 1-6 with a factor of 2.5, the TM dominating the rigger in any way is OVER.

[Larme]

Not everyone wants to play a TM (or a metahuman), no matter how great they are.

And that's their choice. I'm sick of people saying choosing to play sub-optimal characters, and complaining that they're sub-optimal. Your character, your choice. The system doesn't concern itself with whether you refuse to play a TM, the system offers you mundanes and TMs and you choose which to play. You think one is totally better? Play it. Don't want to? That's your choice. It not the system's fault, and it is not grounds to complain.

[ArkonC]

And even more, it's not as if the TM can easily become completely overpowered...
Even if you start with resonance 6, it takes 70 Karma to submerge to grade 4, and 102 karma to actually raise resonance to 10...
And then you still haven't improved a single CF...
A mundane rigger would improve a lot of DPs for that 172 karma...
I think people seem to think too much of the uncappedness of TMs (and mages and adepts for that matter)...
Yes, they are uncapped, but I've yet to see a mage with 12 magic, of a TM with 12 resonance for that matter... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

Under those conditions, you are either awakened or a TM or you have to branch out.

No, you aren't playing SR4, you're playing third. In third, you could boost skill for mundanes endlessly, giving you nice opportunities to waste tons of Karma (also, there's this supernatural attributes at horrendous cost rule that, for instance, would quite easily allow a night one mundane non-cybered characters to have 2 IP - Quickness 10, 10+1d6 always is two IP, pushing the attribute well below the supernatural maximum of 12, even).

Actually, most people I know have main characters with three-digit Karma scores, now that I think of it.

They do what hackers do, only they start out worse and eventually (very eventually) become better.

No. They start out equal and only get better, whereas the mundane will have very little development. Now, if you don't oplay characters beyond 100 Karma, fine, but don't go around proclaiming everyone who doesn't abide by your playing style is a moron.

And what about Adepts? Virtually nothing they do is unique to Adepts. They duplicate sammies, but they have no hard cap like sammies.

Actually, they DO have hard caps that keep them kind of in check (at least with Skill and attribute increases). Aside from Rigger adepts, Adepts have lost quite some power in 4.

I'm sick of people saying choosing to play sub-optimal characters, and complaining that they're sub-optimal. Your character, your choice.

Aww. I feel, like, so guilty now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Seriously, if you can't stand the heat, don't stay close to the fire. In other words: If you don't like this thread, there's noone forcing you to participate in it.

The key problem in this case is not the TM vs. mundane character advancement. A TM can, from the get-go, create program ratings a mundane hacker/rigger can never hope to achive. And the Command mechanic allows to use this program rating with almost any skill. Once one has figured out how TMs work, basically all matrix mechanics break apart, too. See Support Operation used on the Attack CF, or on Stealth CF. It is beyond me how the wireless rules survived playtesting. Lets all hope for Unwired.

Nice one. QFT and all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cryptoknight]

And that's their choice. I'm sick of people saying choosing to play sub-optimal characters, and complaining that they're sub-optimal. Your character, your choice. The system doesn't concern itself with whether you refuse to play a TM, the system offers you mundanes and TMs and you choose which to play. You think one is totally better? Play it. Don't want to? That's your choice. It not the system's fault, and it is not grounds to complain.

So then, everybody should play a metahuman mage, adept or technomancer by what you said.

With that concept, why even have the cyberware or bioware, etc? Shadowrun should just be a game of magic... oh wait.. that's Earthdawn.

Why shouldn't a Street Samurai with 150 Karma be able to compete on some level with a mage with 150 karma? Same in the TM vs Hacker debate.

This is a Skill based, Build Point based system, this isn't D&D. A character built with 400 BP should be on an equal footing when looked at overall from any other character with 400 BP. And when you add Karma onto it later, a character built with 400 BP and having 150 Karma should be balanced to some degree with any other.

*shrug* sometimes I think that mundanes should have 9 essence instead of 6 as a balancing effect, or all magic/tm types should get stuck with sensitive system when they pick up a magic quality without getting any points back for it.

[Tobias]

Not much to add to this, this has been good reading and has enlightened me to some rules I wasn't aware of. Mainly it has made me want to play a Mundane Rigger and get me Unwired ASAP preferably sooner.

[Jaid]

No. They start out equal and only get better, whereas the mundane will have very little development. Now, if you don't oplay characters beyond 100 Karma, fine, but don't go around proclaiming everyone who doesn't abide by your playing style is a moron.

i wouldn't say they start out equal at all. the technomancer is going to have to thread and/or blow services for all of the CFs he isn't allowed to start with. the hacker/rigger/whatever else mundane just needs to get his hands on a decent commlink, some decent skillwires, and the right programs, when it comes down to it, and will already be pretty solid with just that. assuming the hacker/rigger whatever doesn't just start with them all already.

TMs don't really start equal to their mundane counterparts. they're *way* too different to compare, imo. stronger or weaker will depend largely on what you want to do, and who's designing the characters.

[hermit]

i wouldn't say they start out equal at all.

Equal (though with different approaches) in all vehicle control relevat skills. Yes, the mancers will propably not live up to the rigger sam in the real world, but I am talking about what riggers used to be ahead of others in.

[Larme]

Seriously, if you can't stand the heat, don't stay close to the fire. In other words: If you don't like this thread, there's noone forcing you to participate in it.

I'm not complaining about my choice to participate in this thread. I choose to participate, and I choose to lambast those with whom I disagree. This is dissimilar from what you seem to be doing: choosing to play a mundane, and then whinging about how that isn't the optimal choice. You dig your own grave. The system is neutral, you're the one who's using it badly. You're wishing that the system worked exactly the way you want it to. You're wishing that you could follow your normal preferences for playing a mundane rigger, and that the system would keep you on top of the heap, whether it's at 1 karma or 200 karma. I'm sorry that the system doesn't suit you exactly perfectly, but you don't have a valid objective criticism. You have a complaint based on a personal preference which is unique to you (and those few who share it) and not actually a problem with the system itself.

[hermit]

Fine, you said your part and are free to go now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Can we please get back on topic now? I think we were setting up a car chase scenario.

Now, I propose NPC vehicles having Firewall 5 minimum, since noone wants random car crashes due to bored code kiddies. Device rating = response = 3 on NPC random bypasser vehicles. Also, I'd treat all GridGuide-relevant devices as security, seeinga s how it was always emphathised what a black hole GG was ... hence, your average traffic lights would have a DR of 4 and firewall 6 running, with randomly patrolling Agents (4?) running analyse, wandering from node to node, checking for probblems, and dormant Lv4 IC agents with attack 4 in case an alarm is sound.

Comments, suggestions for the rest of the scneario? dense/low traffic? Hghway, back streets in Redmond, or suburbia?

[Whipstitch]

The point being that Riggers can crush 90% of the gameworld in their chosen specialty and don't have to cripple themselves to get there. If you want to omgwtfpwnzor all comers in raw Matrix manipulation or remote controlled combat, then yes, you want to play a TM, since that's kinda what they do. Just don't be surprised if your TM is so weak meatside that he could get beaten up by a feisty housecat. Non-mundanes are the bleeding edge specialists now while mundanes are extremely competent and often have the Edge and bps leftover to sleaze through sticky situations outside of their specialty as well.

[Ryu]

Well, riggers certainly can´t complain about a weak overall position on the food chain. Ask your samurai how they feel about security using optimised Dobermans and MCT Rotordrones.

Many campaigns reach the 100+ mark, thats about 20 games for many groups. What surprised me were the four-digit scores. I think I have never seen that. A real rigger will have attributes and secondary skills to improve before he thinks about the primary ones. The option of being a drone network controller is very strong, and you can do that with AR. Then there are way more rigging-related skills than those I listed. Our previous rigger char did not even have all *needed* skills at decent scores when he reached 170 karma. And most players like to branch out.

[hermit]

My longest-played character has some 900 Karma used and about ... maybe 200 burned (Riggers are nuyen black holes). Played that one since ... well, a damn long time.

I know of a streetsam with some 1400 Karma (played for some 7 years, has really insane firearms skills), two adepts way beyond 1000 (one sort of optimised as sneak/thief and one very optimised as fighter/face), a mystical adept with some 900 Karma used, and a Wolf shaman with about 800. All played for at the very least 5 years in ongoung groups, through more than one campaign. But yes, those are rather extreme cases. Characters around 300 Karma are fairly common, though, for all I know and have seen.

Well, riggers certainly can´t complain about a weak overall position on the food chain. Ask your samurai how they feel about security using optimised Dobermans and MCT Rotordrones.

Sure. I guess I just have a problem with them not being the best in what they do anymore, no matter what. Well, as you put it, let's hope for Unwired.

[Larme]

My longest-played character has some 900 Karma used and about ... maybe 200 burned (Riggers are nuyen black holes). Played that one since ... well, a damn long time.

I know of a streetsam with some 1400 Karma (played for some 7 years, has really insane firearms skills), two adepts way beyond 1000 (one sort of optimised as sneak/thief and one very optimised as fighter/face), a mystical adept with some 900 Karma used, and a Wolf shaman with about 800. All played for at the very least 5 years in ongoung groups, through more than one campaign. But yes, those are rather extreme cases. Characters around 300 Karma are fairly common, though, for all I know and have seen.

Heh, well if that's how your games look, I can see why you'd be upset at the hard caps of SR4. I think that isn't typical of most peoples' games, though. You know what I'd do if I played in a setting where people generally had 300+ karma, and the caps were really getting in the way? Take away the skill cap of 6. There you go, problem solved. That was easy huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Fuchs]

I played in similar games, and it's why I started to play without karma. Advancement happens by GM/Group consensus, and characters are judged for balance not by the amount of BPs or Karma used, but by actual effectiveness and power in the specific campaign.

Same effect, and no power creep.

[hermit]

Both are viable if all players agree on houseruling lots of stuff, and you have no powergamers to keep in check.

[DMK]

[WRENCH] There we go... back on-topic.

So, let's say that my sample rigger (I posted him on Page 9) is making a courier run through Seattle at 3am. He's got his Dalmation running oversight, with the Steel Lynx alongside for additional firepower.

We'll call the terrain Restricted (Light Traffic), giving a +2 to all Thresholds for vehicle tests. Not really sure what the Air Terrain should be like... anyone have any thoughts?

So... what's up first? Trying to detect Hermit's TM Rigger's drones?

[hermit]

I'd think both attempt to detect each other. For fairness' purposes, let's assume similar vehicle ratings?

[Synner]

Set this in a Downtown area (imposing minor restrictions on aerial movement) and make it evening/night time (imposing visibility modifiers). This makes it a medium difficulty scenario for both sides involved and a good comparison (since its neither an extreme open-field shooting range example nor an enclosed space close-quarters maneuvering example).

I agree with hermit, have both sides running sensor checks to detect one another (one looking for its target, the other watching for possible threats).

Additionally, the technomancer should clearly specify exactly what tricks if any he's already commanded from his sprites (though sustained use of the Diagnostics Power is a bad idea since he won't know when the opposition is showing up) and how many tasks he has left from each.

Finally, the rigger should also note what precautions he's got going (Agents/IC in particular).

[hermit]

Makes sense. What about police and sensors, will they interfere or do we rule their response will come after the scene, if at all?

[Synner]

Makes sense. What about police and sensors, will they interfere or do we rule their response will come after the scene, if at all?

To keep this relatively even and simple, let's say the police will take longer to respond than the encounter is likely to last (which I fully expect will be true).

[hermit]

Okay.

Good. Now...

Step 1: Both try to detect each other.

Step 2: Mancer orders a sprite to boost his car, one to boost the vehicle's turret, and threads himself.

Step 3: Vehicle combat begins

Suggestions for Rigger to do, and suggestions how mancer might be more effective?

[Synner]

Step 1: Both try to detect each other.

Step 2: Mancer orders a sprite to boost his car, one to boost the vehicle's turret, and threads himself.

Step 3: Vehicle combat begins

Suggestions for Rigger to do, and suggestions how mancer might be more effective?

I'd suggest taking it one Step at a time. For instance, just Step 2 is going to cost the TM multiple actions which, assuming both sides detected one another, gives the rigger plenty of time to make some moves of his own.