calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[hermit]

Why the 900 karma rigger?

Because that's a high-end as riggers can possibly get, and STILL the character is outclassed by STARTUP TMs using threading and sprite assistance.

What about the other specialists you were complaining about? Are you conceding regarding them?

No, I just thought we could do this step by step. Vehicle Streetsam and Adept Rigger are propably going to get some 100 startup Karma to go against the insane-Karma rigger (and outclass the character in driving and equal them in gunnery).

I may have been unclear, but what I meant to point out was that the "field of rigging" is pretty large and that while most of aforementioned specialists will compete with riggers in a very limited way such as driving skill pools (something which obviously doesn't sit well with you), they are generally unable to keep up with the rigger in the vast "field of rigging" and hence do not make them obsolete.

I am thinking of DP comparison in vehicle perception, driving, gunnery and spoofing. That should about cover that vast field. However, I will exclude data search and the likes.

The exception to this can be, of course, the technomancer rigger—however, technomancers are rare enough and their specialization is so restrictive (both in terms of BP and in game Karma development) that they will never render a competent rigger obsolete and they also have the whole limitation with the Living Persona equating Physical damage going on.

HotSim covers that, too, albeit apparently only in German books.

[Mäx]

If you are the (mundane)rigger of the team and anyone else is not playing a tecno rigger, why do you even care if they might get a bigger dicepools, that doesn't affect your character or his effectines at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[hermit]

Because a) they exist and b) the GM will eventually use them. Besides, not being able to upgrade your character after some 100 Karma is kind of depressing and kinda spoils playing such a character for me. I usually don't play oneshot characters, you see.

And I would like to note I just read that the numer of IP a technomancer can have while rigging is NOT CAPPED. He can initiate over and over again and get that +1IP echo and will only gather more. Yay for balancing.

Also, hot damn is the GM screen not useful here.

[Whipstitch]

Uh, no? The hardcap on IPs is set at 4. No exceptions.

[ArkonC]

Echoes
A technomancer can choose one of the following echoes at each grade of submersion (including the first). Unless otherwise noted, no power may be chosen more than once.

Overclocking: The technomancer accelerates his living persona’s system clock, allowing him to act more quickly within the Matrix. This grants the technomancer + 1 to his Response (also increasing his Matrix Initiative), and grants him an additional Initiative Pass while operating in full-sim VR.

So even if 4 IPs wasn't the hard cap, it still wouldn't be so...

[hermit]

First edition german core rules books seem to suck enormously. That's the second time they deviate from English canon.

[BishopMcQ]

And I would like to note I just read that the numer of IP a technomancer can have while rigging is NOT CAPPED. He can initiate over and over again and get that +1IP echo and will only gather more. Yay for balancing.

Also, unless specifically mentioned otherwise, each echo can only be taken once. Overclocking thus can only give the TM +1 IP.

[edit: Blast you, Arkon...that's what I get for reading a thread without updating before I post.]

[hermit]

I'll have to work this out with Angier, so it may be a day or two until I have my examples ready. My apologies for the delay.

[Tycho]

First edition german core rules books seem to suck enormously. That's the second time they deviate from English canon.

only the second time?
you should read the book more carefully, there are much more mistakes in the translation.

eg:
-Allergy of Water/Fire spirits
-Edge use to reduce glitchs
...

I only use my german core rules, if I don't have my laptop with the eng. pdf arround.

cya
Tycho

[hermit]

you should read the book more carefully, there are much more mistakes in the translation.

Well, since I haven't yet compared it to english canon, how exactly am I to know the differences?

So who's right now, english or german rules?

[Synner]

Because that's a high-end as riggers can possibly get, and STILL the character is outclassed by STARTUP TMs using threading and sprite assistance.

You can have it your way but that exercise is comparatively useless. I don't see the point since even with 900 karma the high end skills are capped and will show little if any difference for the rigger. The nuyen would be much more important but that would mean adding/factoring in available gear, software, autosofts, cyberware, etc to your intent to compare dicepools below. Comparing out of chargen is much more important, your technomancer may be great out the box but he might not have any resources left over to buy a souped up drone let alone several.

I still suggest someone post a starting character rigger for comparison too.

No, I just thought we could do this step by step. Vehicle Streetsam and Adept Rigger are propably going to get some 100 startup Karma to go against the insane-Karma rigger (and outclass the character in driving and equal them in gunnery).

Okay, we'll wait for that then.

I am thinking of DP comparison in vehicle perception, driving, gunnery and spoofing. That should about cover that vast field. However, I will exclude data search and the likes.

The problem there is that Threading, particularly at the levels you're talking about, causes Fading — which riggers don't have to deal with — and that impacts dicepools and technomancer effectiveness in subsequent Tests. Hence my suggestion of playing out a scene. At the very least you need to include comparisons where the same characters control different vehicles and drones, simultaneously or not.

HotSim covers that, too, albeit apparently only in German books.

Obviously any comparison would need to be based on the mechanics in the English SR4 book (and any relevant errata) which the rest of us are using - the German material was translated (badly or not) from the English original and the FanPro D printing was never errata'd to the best of my knowledge.

For reference: Biofeedback damage is (DV taken by vehicle/2)S Damage and resisted with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter. Dumpshock damage is a fixed 5P for Hotsim again resisted with Willpower + Biofeedback Filter (which btw makes it impossible to die simply from dumpshock).

[hermit]

Comparing out of chargen is much more important, your technomancer may be great out the box but he might not have any resources left over to buy a souped up drone let alone several.

Why should he need to buy equipment? He can hack/steal himself any drone he'll ever need. He can just go ahead, thread himself up, channel a sprite and steal the startup rigger's drones, something the startup rigger can do nothing about.

Obviously any comparison would need to be based on the mechanics in the English SR4 book (and any relevant errata) which the rest of us are using - the German material was translated (badly or not) from the English original and the FanPro D printing was never errata'd to the best of my knowledge.

Allright, I'l see if I can find soemone with an english core book then for these examples.

I still suggest someone post a starting character rigger for comparison too.

Yeah propably.

I don't see the point since even with 900 karma the high end skills are capped and will show little if any difference for the rigger.

The lack of a chance for progression would be part of my point, yes.

The problem there is that Threading, particularly at the levels you're talking about, causes Fading — which riggers don't have to deal with — and that impacts dicepools and technomancer effectiveness in subsequent Tests. Hence my suggestion of playing out a scene. At the very least you need to include comparisons where the same characters control different vehicles and drones, simultaneously or not.

If you kill off the opfor with one hard strike, or cripple them enough, that's worth it.

[Whipstitch]

Yes, that will surely have no consequences whatsoever. Look, TMs are really expensive, and I do rather dislike how powerful they are once they go "all in" and burn through services at a tremendous clip. But at the same time, being better at that kinda thing is their whole reason for existing. I'd probably prefer a setting in which they didn't exist at all, but if they're going to be here I don't see why they shouldn't be better at rigging than a rigger. Riggers are a lot easier to branch off into other specialties, even if it's just via Wired Reflexes and a Skillwire system. The TM's lack of flexibility is a tremendous flaw.

[hermit]

Yes, that will surely have no consequences whatsoever.

Where did I state that? I said that the damage done/tasks achieved might be worth it.

Look, TMs are really expensive, and I do rather dislike how powerful they are once they go "all in" and burn through services at a tremendous clip. But at the same time, being better at that kinda thing is their whole reason for existing.

Ah, so the Rigger's raison d'etre would be to suck at what he does?

I'd probably prefer a setting in which they didn't exist at all, but if they're going to be here I don't see why they shouldn't be better at rigging than a rigger.

See, I personally would prefer a setting where they're somewhat balanced against other characters, and where non-TM characters would have ANY chance of goingt against one and winning (no, there is none in rigger vs. mancer, at least none I see). And yes, knowing no matter how much I try to develop the character, he'll always suck at what is supposed to be the center of his capabilities compared to other characters, and suck massively (a difference of 8 dice or more), kind of kills the fun of playing that type of character. Well, at least for me. Someone who wants to play a steetsam who can on the side rig drones, or whatever other character you want to add the rigging capabilities on as a side occupation may rejoice and be happy with that concept. Me, I won't.

[Tycho]

Obviously any comparison would need to be based on the mechanics in the English SR4 book (and any relevant errata) which the rest of us are using - the German material was translated (badly or not) from the English original and the FanPro D printing was never errata'd to the best of my knowledge.

There is a german errata, but it does only include the most ovious mistakes and the first eng. errata. None of the translation mistake has been included.

cya
Tycho

[masterofm]

Well what it seems to me now is you just don't play a mundane rigger. You play an adept rigger. Why is this so wrong? 4th ed changed the arch types around a little bit. If your a SR it stands to reason most people in a team should be magically attuned. An adept with improved ability can throw dice up in the 20's where a mundane gets teens. Is this what you are mainly talking about Hermit? If so it seems that to be a mundane in SR 4 (for the most part) is a pretty bad idea. Although dropping 5 bp for a trait that allows you for growth in the future is not a bad idea, but then again sometimes it pays to have a cyborg, or a jack of all trades.

[Synner]

Why should he need to buy equipment? He can hack/steal himself any drone he'll ever need. He can just go ahead, thread himself up, channel a sprite and steal the startup rigger's drones, something the startup rigger can do nothing about.

Seriously? I'm assuming you've never tried it then. If he's on the network, a competent rigger will know about the intrusion the moment it happens and will be bitch slapping the technomancer with his hacking skills if not backtracking him to his location, that's assuming the drone doesn't have IC inside to protect it. But don't take my word for it. Why don't we add that to the "tests" to compare the characters? How good each is at hijacking drones and vehicles (and how long that takes).

The lack of a chance for progression would be part of my point, yes.

The technomancer is not capped by Submersion, but then again he sucks at pretty much every other Att and Skill—if he's specialized as a maxed-out technomancer rigger. And once Unwired comes out his options are going to expand and with them places to spend karma.

Look, TMs are really expensive, and I do rather dislike how powerful they are once they go "all in" and burn through services at a tremendous clip. But at the same time, being better at that kinda thing is their whole reason for existing.

Ah, so the Rigger's raison être wpould be to suck at what he does?

Just for the record, and just so we're all on the same track, the maxed-out specialized technomancer rigger should be able to trounce the rigger in several of those tests, just like a specialized technomancer can beat out most hackers in straight hacking. That's what they do, they are masters of all things Matrix and like it or not rigging is now part of the Matrix. However, they are very rare, they are rarer than magicians, their abilities can't be reproduced and are sensitive to implantation. This is represented by their high BP cost. Furthermore, step one degree out of their specialization or have them take damage and they're going to sink like a rock.

The rigger doesn't suck or is rendered obsolete because he can be beaten in his field by a hyperspecialist, any more than samurais suck or is rendered obsolete because a cybered gunslinger adept can beat them at shooting pistols. He's still head and feet above 99.999% of the population in the vast "field of rigging."

[masterofm]

If your drones operate without wireless access how are they going to steal the drone anyways? Just coat your drones with anti wifi paint.

[hermit]

Seriously? I'm assuming you've never tried it then. If he's on the network, a competent rigger will know about the intrusion the moment it happens and will be bitch slapping the technomancer with his hacking skills if not backtracking him to his location, that's assuming the drone doesn't have IC inside to protect it. But don't take my word for it. Why don't we add that to the "tests" to compare the characters? How good each is at hijacking drones and vehicles (and how long that takes).

Okay, certainly.

Just for the record, and just so we're all on the same track, the maxed out specialized technomancer rigger should be able to trounce the rigger in several of those tests, just like a specialized technomancer can beat out most hackers in straight hacking. That's what they do, they are masters of all things Matrix. Now, step a milimeter out of their specialization or have them take damage and they're going to sink.

The rigger doesn't suck or is rendered obsolete because he can be beaten, any more than samurais suck or are obsolete because a cybered gunslinger adept can beat them at shooting pistols. He's still head and feet above 99.99% of the population in the vast "field of rigging."

Okay, that WAS a great deal of my reasoning. So the reduction of a rigger to nothingness in face of a riggermancer is on purpose, suggesting the rigger become an add-on feature for other character cocnepts, not a concept to stand on it's own feet, yes? I'm kind of curious because I have been told quite often now that a rigger IS suppsoed to be able to stand on his two feet as a concept. I just don't see that when that concept is purposely outclassed by another.

And 'can be beaten at one skill' doesn't quite compare to 'will be beaten at any matrix relevant skill by another character', nor do I see how this compares to a streetsam versus adept (who'll still be ahead of the adept in many relevant attributes and can boost himself significantly with cyber, almost to adept level). This is more of a rigger/rigger adept comparison thing (which kinda would make sense). Against a mancer, however, it's insta-lose for the rigger. And yes,t hat makes the character obsolete.

Whether or not TMs are supposed to be rare or not isn't quite relevant in ingame terms. Fact is, they do reduce riggers to MacGuffin characters or Stormtrooper-level soldiers compared to a Luke Skywalker. Kind of a dive from "guy who is actually good at what he does", isn't it?

If your drones operate without wireless access how are they going to steal the drone anyways? Just coat your drones with anti wifi paint.

And issue commands or jump into them how?

[Whipstitch]

It does stand on its own two feet as a concept. It's a highly skilled technical character and vehicle operater with a wide suite of skills. A TM rigger is a frail pile of meat that really sucks outside of an extremely narrow specialty and is easily confounded by a wired vehicle. Past a certain point, yes, mundanes have to expand their skillset laterally rather than vertically, but at least they're in a much better position to do so. It's an attribute-skill based game, not a class based one.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Mar 22 2008, 08:37 PM

[hermit]

Uhm ... hunh? how would he? He'd just hack the vehicle and take over?

[Whipstitch]

I meant wired vehicle. My bad. TMs tend to rely on Sprites and autosofts to the point that actually physically driving a wired vehicle is hard for them. If the rigger jumps on something that's manually controlled only he just grabs the wheel and goes. Edited and tagged the post accordingly

[hermit]

Allright. Yeah, that'd propably make the mancer look bad. Though that'S where KyleDr!v3r comes in, where he excels, again outclassing the rigger.

[BishopMcQ]

Hermit--Reading through many of your comments/critiques, I think the problem we are running into is a difference between Mundanes and Awakened/Resonant people.

The beginning of the discussion seemed to focus on the problems between pilot programs and riggers, after that talk got put to rest, there was a transition to TMs as better riggers than mundanes. Straight out of the box, the two characters will have similar dice-pools. (Both can max out the relevant skills and program/CF ratings). The difference comes in the application.

While a TM is great at a single area, all the points that are being poured into Resonance, Threading and Compiling, the rigger is spending on other areas to create a more-rounded approach. When the TM tosses in a sprite and threads up a complex form, the rigger can respond with versatility. The rigger provides forward reconnaissance, fire support, and bolsters his teams matrix defenses. Because a TM uses complex forms, they can't copy IC into their drones, commlinks etc.

In the example of a TM stealing a rigger's drone, while it's fully plausible, doing that takes all of the TM's focus and concentration. At the same time that a rigger is fending off the attack on this drone, his other drones are still transmitting information across the network and other members of his team can issue commands to the drones. That flexibility is what allows riggers to stand on their own as a concept for me.

I'm intrigued by the concept of a techno-mancer covert ops type who infiltrates networks and turns the system against itself or a TM who is the world's best driver and specializes in taking down drone defenses at a corporate target. But the question is what does the TM offer the group when they take a job against a magical target which doesn't use matrix based defenses or drones, or when they go on safari in Africa or the Outback.

For my two cents, better or worse is far too situational to say that the TM renders the Rigger obsolete or that the Rigger is relegated to an add-on role for the Street Sam.

[Whipstitch]

Allright. Yeah, that'd propably make the mancer look bad. Though that'S where KyleDr!v3r comes in, where he excels, again outclassing the rigger.

Not really. The rigger already should have Hardware skill to hotwire it, plus the raw driving skill required to do extremely well on an unwired vehicle. My team's current rigger actually has a Move-By-Wire system, which is nice, since he's got 7 Reaction and a bonus to dodge plus the integral Skillwire 2. He'll school you on a bike without the Control Rig no problem.