The Decker/Rigger issue, Why so few Options

[Kyleigh Wester]

In most groups i've been in, ever, I played all the roles left over. I played the decker (my primary focus) the medic, and usually was the one with the high charisma to persuade the Johnson. We generally have at least three fighters and i've NEVER played with a Rigger, hell, I don't even really know the rigger rules. Does anybody else have this issue? Do you usually have to do without riggers and deckers? Have you ever got stuck with a group of all fighters, making it difficult to come up with a realistic run? Maybe it's just my groups, but I don't see this.

Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

A few other things I want to get out of the way:
Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?
Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?
Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.

[hermit]

i've NEVER played with a Rigger, hell, I don't even really know the rigger rules. Does anybody else have this issue?

Kind of. Let's just say I used to be a rigger player in sR3. But for more information, read the calling out hermit thread and the other recent riger relevant threads, as well as the arsenal review, in case you're interested. Of course, I'm not everyone, and some people here play SR4 riggers.

Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

Well, yes. I've had my fights with players who feel I play too little action-y stuff or punish them for action-y stunts. Well, yeah, I guess they're right, but I like my games more along the lines of detective stories or Alias (the show), emphathising stealth, infiltration, generally social stuff over blazing gun battles. That's not to say I don't ever run action-y adventures - I have a couple typed and ready if we feel like it - but I prefer social stuff because, selfish ass that I am, it's much more fun for the GM, as far as I am concerned.

I'd just recommend to chose your players carefully. If someone doesn't fit into the group, tell them - it's not a bad thing to prefer a different style of game than you do, it's just bad when that issue remains ignored.

Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?

Not really. I am an elf player, for the most part (elf or norm), but I'm not really the majority. It's pretty evenly mixed, actually. In my experience.

Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?

Do you like the Matrix movies or Equilibrium much? It's not in my group or groups I know. Me, I'm all into Actioneer and SecureTec armoured jackets. They have better stats too.

Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.

I'm lost there too. They're versatile and can use some turns a car cannot, sure, but the driver's just too vulnerable. I guess it's the mobility the bike offers, plus the raw numbers under speed and acceleration. Me, I prefer armoured and tricked sedans and vans.

[ElFenrir]

Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

A few other things I want to get out of the way:
Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?
Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?
Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.

Well, let's see:

1. Not really. Alot of us like actioney types(me included), but we've always managed to make it through somehow. Maybe because our group has gamed together so long we just tailor the games to what we feel like playing.

2. Elves? Not so much. We play em now and then but they are rather uncommon.

3. I don't think we wear alot of trenchcoats. Sometimes, sure, but again, not always.

4. Motorcycles are fast, inexpensive, and pretty stylish, i guess. If we can afford vans, well, we like vans, but cycles are a good personal tool.

[Daier Mune]

we had a rigger in our 3rd Ed. days, and i recall the rules on them being numerous and complicated. 4th Ed. rules seems to make a dedicated rigger unnessisary, as its pretty easy for everyone to have a drone or two on autopilot watching your back.

elves are farily common, as ar orks. the stat bonuses are hard to argue with.

trenchcoats have been less common in 4th Ed. than they were before. people ususaly grab an armored jacked nowadays, but a trench is still pretty good. conceal bonuses are nice and it's armor is nothing to scoff at. plus if you've ever owned a good heavy trenchcoat you'll know how secure and multipurposed it really is.

[Jhaiisiin]

In my SR2/3 days, both Riggers and Deckers required so much extra work from a player and GM perspective, that they were often ignored. I know when I GM'd, I flat out disallowed riggers and deckers as PC's because of it. I'll likely make my next SR4 character a rigger, just because I've not had a chance to really try it out in the new system yet.

Elf popularity varied from one campaign to the next with our group. One crew was 2 elves and 2 humans, most recent crew is 1 elf, 2 humans and a dwarf. It varies.

Trenchcoats only get on characters for flavor usually. Most everyone runs with an armored jacket in the games I'm in.

Motorcycles are a quick, agile way to get to or from. But like the super agile adept or dancer or whatever, once you hit them, they're out like a light. It's a tradeoff. That said, my crew ususally has a team van, with individual rides like cycles or americars or somesuch.

[Pendaric]

I have been lucky with riggers and deckers but I made my own luck by intergrating them at the gaming table. I have had a fairly even mix of metahumans but humans seemed to be the favourite choice at my table. The build point system favouring cyber humans and player leanings.
Lets face it, the SR3 rigger rules where overly complicated. Once your experienced you can make them flow but thats a lot of effort, it put people off. SR4 you don't get the same advantages being a dedicated rigger when so many people can run drones.

As to trench coats, there the cloak of the neo hero plus you can hide stuff under them. Pink mohawk games love the style of a floor duster, its almost complusory. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bikes are a must for some characters in my game not just because of the cost but because I inforce the trecherous terrain of the barrens. You just can not guarentee a car will get through as easily as a bike.

[Whipstitch]

I'm an SR4 GM, and one of the nice things is that the Decker/Rigger thing is now a non-issue for me. By many standards you could say my groups munchkin out with everyone taking their role as far as they can without hardcapping and then they emphasize Edge. When I GM my current group has 1 cybered Face/Shaman, a Hacker, a Rigger and a Samurai. They're a tiny bit weak in social skills, but they've got the Edge to get by if they have to and the Face/Shaman is enough to see them through most encounters. He's more of a Summoner/Face & Astral Scout than a general practictioner, although he's unfortunately the only one with an Edge pool below 4. Combat spell wise he has Stun Bolt and that's it; he's mostly there to provide Social skills, Counterspelling, Mana Static and utility via Spirits. They actually rely pretty heavily on drones for combat backup when possible and everyone pitched in and bought at least 1 Steel Lynx to contribute to the drone army.

When it's not my turn to GM (we break things up with 1 shots regularly), the Rigger and Hacker are the first roles to be ignored, partially because the one shots are designed to be played relatively quick 'n' dirty so nobody wants to bother with the fiddly gear lists they require. That said, I don't think we've ever gone a run without at least having a hacker or rigger; it's just always having both that becomes an issue. Last time out was a Hacker/Rigger (we collaborated on resources so he maxed out on skills/commlink/'ware while everyone else chipped in a vehicle or drone again; a pox on the 50 point gear cap (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) a cybered Hermetic (me!), a Samurai and a Social Adept with a ridiculous defense pool. Everyone but the Adept has a really nice Edge pool and the Samurai is a beast. People keep telling me Mages can dominate combat. So can the samurai, and he doesn't take drain doing it. I'll sit back here with my Mana Static and bag of "You can do WHAT?!" utility spells instead, thank you very much. My job is to provide crazy shit everyone else can't do, like the aforementioned Mana Static, Trid Phantasm, Heal, Levitation and Spirits that provide Weather Control and Concealment. As the samurai likes to say, leaving cover is for guys with more than 3 body.

Oh, and nobody plays Elves in the one shots because they kinda suck in the short term by the SR4 rules unless you've got a build in mind that really plays to their strengths.

[Stahlseele]

i've only built some riggers solely for certain concepts like the hover-drone-carrier or the air-ship drone carrier(so i like shield, sue me <.<) and only because we house-rules that remote controll decks can be placed into cyberlimbs just like cyber-decks . .

and no, i really don't know the hacker/decker/rigger rules either . . SR3 is slightly complicated in those regards *g*

[Kyleigh Wester]

In my SR2/3 days, both Riggers and Deckers required so much extra work from a player and GM perspective, that they were often ignored. I know when I GM'd, I flat out disallowed riggers and deckers as PC's because of it.

In second edition I can understand, but if you told me I couldn't be a Decker in third edition, were the rules are extremely simple ( I know all of them off the top of my head) then I'd probably flat out leave.


Glad to see some other people run into the all fighter issue and the motorcycle thing, this really helps answer some of my questions. I don't have the time for a full response response right now but I look forward to more replies and seeing how other GMs adapt to this issue.

[hermit]

only because we house-rules that remote controll decks can be placed into cyberlimbs just like cyber-decks . .

That's not a house rule.

In second edition I can understand, but if you told me I couldn't be a Decker in third edition, were the rules are extremely simple ( I know all of them off the top of my head) then I'd probably flat out leave.

Actually, so would I have.

[Stahlseele]

is not? O.o
hrm . . maybe i'm mixing something up, but we've houseruled something in that regard . . at least, i'm pretty sure we did o.O

[hermit]

It has been clarified in an Errata for SR3.01D that that is perfectly legal. At least for all I know. Don't ask me which one, though.

[Stahlseele]

but probably not with just 0,1 Essence-Cost for the DNI-Connection right? *g*
maybe we've even outsourced the VCR and the Cyber-deck like that . . i'm at work right now, i don't have access to my NSRCG with our changes to the DataBase so i ain't sure ^^#

[cx2]

Bikes often just seem a small neat personal transport, depending on the character. More a sammy thing than a face thing a lot of the time perhaps.

As to trench coats, two words... Syndicate Wars big grin.

[hermit]

but probably not with just 0,1 Essence-Cost for the DNI-Connection right? *g*

You have to pay for the rigger's foot too (0,3), and that's it, if I am not mistaken.

[Stahlseele]

yeah, okay, of course the essence-cost of the limb you wanna place it in has to be taken into account . . as an aside, i just watched the streethawk pilot again and am very inclined to make a character based on that . . they did the good old knight rider trick, but with moto-cross-bikes rolling out of the back of a medium transport or VAN-like Truck . . for such things, like getting away, bikes are pretty much unbeatable, if you don't have a flying drone that can support your weight ^^

[Jhaiisiin]

In second edition I can understand, but if you told me I couldn't be a Decker in third edition, were the rules are extremely simple ( I know all of them off the top of my head) then I'd probably flat out leave.

Actually, so would I have.

Honestly, my trepidation with riggers and deckers in SR3 may have been a holdover from SR2. Everyone we played with had almost no issue with it (the occasional mentioning of wanting to play one, but it never went far), so it never really became a problem. Were you part of that group, I'd have hated to see you go, but that would have been your choice. The "No deckers or riggers" ruling was always laid down from the moment we considered playing SR with a group, so there were no complaints going in, because everyone knew the rules.

That said, completely contrary to some people here it seems, we *rarely* see a change of people in the roleplaying groups I'm a part of. Only once have we booted someone, others have left because they chose to, and even then I still have fingers left on one hand when adding them all up. Only ever lost one GM, and that was due to... ummm... how to put this gently... they graduated from Crazy Go Nuts University and are now teaching there. I wonder if that's tactful enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[hermit]

Honestly, my trepidation with riggers and deckers in SR3 may have been a holdover from SR2. Everyone we played with had almost no issue with it (the occasional mentioning of wanting to play one, but it never went far), so it never really became a problem. Were you part of that group, I'd have hated to see you go, but that would have been your choice. The "No deckers or riggers" ruling was always laid down from the moment we considered playing SR with a group, so there were no complaints going in, because everyone knew the rules.

Well, we seem to come from opposing backgrounds then, playing style wise ... because, in all except my last gaming group, there were a rigger (me) and at least one decker present. My first group had: a rigger, a decker, a combat decker, a sam, and a tech-affine shaman.

That said, completely contrary to some people here it seems, we *rarely* see a change of people in the roleplaying groups I'm a part of.

Lucky you, then. I lost a GM like that too, btw. For other fun reasons too.

[Eyeless Blond]

As to bikes, you see a lot of them around in SR4 for the same reason you see them almost exclusively in third-world countries today: they're cheap to own, easy to maintain, get decent gas mileage, and can handle poor road conditions far better than your average (non off-road) car.

As to elves, I can't say why you see so many elves; they suck now unless you're making a Pornomancer. You really have to min-max that Cha to make them worthwhile over the lowly human. The thing I've been seeing more and more of these days, though, is orks. They're everywhere; just about every build I've seen that's not Technical Skill-oriented--and sometimes even those--are done with orks.

Then there's riggers. Ugh, riggers. I'm trying to build a hacker/rigger right now, and I'm having the worst time of it, because the rules are scattered in the most unlikely places. For example, anyone know what the Signal rating of a Steel Lynx is? I'll give you a hint: it's not in the vehicle entry; it's not on page 158 where they talk about vehicle attributes; it's not on page 238 with the vehicle remote control rules either. I had to ask around on DS before someone pointed out page 214, where they give Matrix attributes to non-commlink objects. I'm still a little curious, though, whether or not the Steel Lynx is a drone or a security device, but I guess I may as well just give it a 3.

I'm still a little confused as to which attributes replace your physical ones when you've switched into VR driving. Apparently Agility is replaced by Sensor, for some reason, as that's the attribute you use when rolling Gunnery by remote, and Reaction is replaced by Response. Whose Response? The drone's? The rigger's commlink's? The lowest of the two? Where is this spelled out in the book? Ugh, what a mess.

[hermit]

I'm still a little curious, though, whether or not the Steel Lynx is a drone or a security device, but I guess I may as well just give it a 3.

Going out on a limb a bit, I imagine the Steel Lynx is a security vehicle (drone) rather than drone like the chariot is and thus will have signal Device Rating 4. You may want to up it's response to 5 ASAP, though.

Whose Response? The drone's? The rigger's commlink's? The lowest of the two?

Whatever's lower.

[Jhaiisiin]

Well, we seem to come from opposing backgrounds then, playing style wise ... because, in all except my last gaming group, there were a rigger (me) and at least one decker present. My first group had: a rigger, a decker, a combat decker, a sam, and a tech-affine shaman.

So it seems. Ain't it great how much experiences can color/taint our perceptions? I'm glad it worked for you guys though. In a lot of ways, I regret not having it work for us.

Lucky you, then. I lost a GM like that too, btw. For other fun reasons too.

Yeah, CGNU seems to attract so many people each year. Hates that school a lot.

[Eyeless Blond]

How about a Doberman? The thing's got a weapon mount on it standard; I'd argue that makes it a security device rather than a normal drone.

Or the offensive version of the Lone Star IBall?

[Kyleigh Wester]

We've always had the same people, we've never lost a player, errr, we kicked him out but we eventually let him back in. We might kick him out for the same reason too. Suspected cheating and talking on his damned phone in the middle of a session. Most of our players are close friends.

Being a GM I can say I hate having a decker-less team because, realistically, I can't see a complex not having heavy technological security.


Our group works in a differant way. We have five players and we swap GMing week for week. For example, next Saturday is Jeremy, and the one after that is me. It actually works out real well and we all have our little arcs going. If someone needs of course they can GM multiple times in a row.

[hermit]

So it seems. Ain't it great how much experiences can color/taint our perceptions? I'm glad it worked for you guys though. In a lot of ways, I regret not having it work for us.

Yeah. Decking and Rigging in 3 was pretty smooth, rules-wise, actually, once you got the hang of it. In 2, on the other hand ... our usual GM was pretty soon rather good at timing the decker's part so the rest of the group could go fetch lunch kebab. Tat worked out nicely too. Should the decker fuck up, the plugholding duty PC would just pull the plug on autopilot (with the GM rolling reaction). Worked out nicely too. Rigging was houseruled a bit and drones were treated like characters, though all had the same initiative, in 3 as wella s 2. we never really bothered with maneuver tests for drones, only for larger vehicles. That integrated them very well, and with captain's chair or a bit more houseruling in 2, the rigger was able to be mobile while the drones did their thing too. excellent for infiltration jobs that need lots of firepower as backup.

How about a Doberman? The thing's got a weapon mount on it standard; I'd argue that makes it a security device rather than a normal drone.

Or the offensive version of the Lone Star IBall?

The first is a security device, since it actually does security work. the second is just a grenade with minimal sensors and propulsion, so I giess it diesn't really have much in terms of response wasted on it.

We've always had the same people, we've never lost a player, errr, we kicked him out but we eventually let him back in. We might kick him out for the same reason too. Suspected cheating and talking on his damned phone in the middle of a session. Most of our players are close friends.

Yah. In my last group, we eventually established a rule that cells ringing loudly and not going out of the room to take the call was punished by Karma loss. That worked somewhat. We kicked several in previous groups, but not in that one. The last was full of mature people. Really fun troupe. Pity it dissolved.

Being a GM I can say I hate having a decker-less team because, realistically, I can't see a complex not having heavy technological security.

Too true. Though usually, this is circumvented by use of NPC deckers.

Our group works in a differant way. We have five players and we swap GMing week for week. For example, next Saturday is Jeremy, and the one after that is me. It actually works out real well and we all have our little arcs going. If someone needs of course they can GM multiple times in a row.

Congrats that all of your plaers are up to GMing. In my old groups, maybe 2 to 4 out of some 6 were. It's pretty much the ideal group if that works out; that way, noone is frustrated because he can never play.

In short: I'm green with envy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[nathanross]

Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

Action heros don't last in the shadows, tech guys who know how to hide right last quite some time if they don't mess with the wrong people. I found it easier to survive by knowing people. Back in the 60's, a man could go without knowing any of that matrix jumbo, nowadays, you gotta know it to survive. I always pay a good friend in the Choson rings to watch my electronic back, and he has hooked me up with some awesome bugs and software to make using 'em easy. Boy does he have some favors to call down on.

Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?

In my experience, elves will be elves, and orks will be orks. Just the way some people roll you know chummer?

Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?

Man, I haven't worn trenchcoats since the Secure Longcoat went out of fashion in the 60's. Nowadays I'm all about the suits. I still keep a Ulysses in my saddle bags for the rain, can't let my clothes get ruined by the acid rain.

Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.

Three reasons to drive a motorcycle: gas, parking, and security. Petrol costs too damn much now, in 2070 its 10x worse. There is no way I can rationalize a van unless the team is carpooling and the rigger has a few stratos-9 (or SR4 equivalent) and Dobermen to unload. Parking is also a total bitch in downtown Seattle at midday for a car. Sure Ares recently built a new parking garage, but that barely handles the current excess. Those SINers just have too much money to waste. As for security, can you fit your car through the door of your Barrens squat? Didn't think so. Finding a nice flat in Puyallup that has access to a garage and maglock is near unheard of. Bikes are much easier to handle and maintain.