Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The Decker/Rigger issue
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Kyleigh Wester
In most groups i've been in, ever, I played all the roles left over. I played the decker (my primary focus) the medic, and usually was the one with the high charisma to persuade the Johnson. We generally have at least three fighters and i've NEVER played with a Rigger, hell, I don't even really know the rigger rules. Does anybody else have this issue? Do you usually have to do without riggers and deckers? Have you ever got stuck with a group of all fighters, making it difficult to come up with a realistic run? Maybe it's just my groups, but I don't see this.

Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

A few other things I want to get out of the way:
Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?
Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?
Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.
hermit
QUOTE
i've NEVER played with a Rigger, hell, I don't even really know the rigger rules. Does anybody else have this issue?

Kind of. Let's just say I used to be a rigger player in sR3. But for more information, read the calling out hermit thread and the other recent riger relevant threads, as well as the arsenal review, in case you're interested. Of course, I'm not everyone, and some people here play SR4 riggers.

QUOTE
Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

Well, yes. I've had my fights with players who feel I play too little action-y stuff or punish them for action-y stunts. Well, yeah, I guess they're right, but I like my games more along the lines of detective stories or Alias (the show), emphathising stealth, infiltration, generally social stuff over blazing gun battles. That's not to say I don't ever run action-y adventures - I have a couple typed and ready if we feel like it - but I prefer social stuff because, selfish ass that I am, it's much more fun for the GM, as far as I am concerned.

I'd just recommend to chose your players carefully. If someone doesn't fit into the group, tell them - it's not a bad thing to prefer a different style of game than you do, it's just bad when that issue remains ignored.

QUOTE
Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?

Not really. I am an elf player, for the most part (elf or norm), but I'm not really the majority. It's pretty evenly mixed, actually. In my experience.

QUOTE
Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?

Do you like the Matrix movies or Equilibrium much? It's not in my group or groups I know. Me, I'm all into Actioneer and SecureTec armoured jackets. They have better stats too.

QUOTE
Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.

I'm lost there too. They're versatile and can use some turns a car cannot, sure, but the driver's just too vulnerable. I guess it's the mobility the bike offers, plus the raw numbers under speed and acceleration. Me, I prefer armoured and tricked sedans and vans.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester @ Mar 23 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

A few other things I want to get out of the way:
Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?
Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?
Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.



Well, let's see:

1. Not really. Alot of us like actioney types(me included), but we've always managed to make it through somehow. Maybe because our group has gamed together so long we just tailor the games to what we feel like playing.

2. Elves? Not so much. We play em now and then but they are rather uncommon.

3. I don't think we wear alot of trenchcoats. Sometimes, sure, but again, not always.

4. Motorcycles are fast, inexpensive, and pretty stylish, i guess. If we can afford vans, well, we like vans, but cycles are a good personal tool.
Daier Mune
we had a rigger in our 3rd Ed. days, and i recall the rules on them being numerous and complicated. 4th Ed. rules seems to make a dedicated rigger unnessisary, as its pretty easy for everyone to have a drone or two on autopilot watching your back.

elves are farily common, as ar orks. the stat bonuses are hard to argue with.

trenchcoats have been less common in 4th Ed. than they were before. people ususaly grab an armored jacked nowadays, but a trench is still pretty good. conceal bonuses are nice and it's armor is nothing to scoff at. plus if you've ever owned a good heavy trenchcoat you'll know how secure and multipurposed it really is.
Jhaiisiin
In my SR2/3 days, both Riggers and Deckers required so much extra work from a player and GM perspective, that they were often ignored. I know when I GM'd, I flat out disallowed riggers and deckers as PC's because of it. I'll likely make my next SR4 character a rigger, just because I've not had a chance to really try it out in the new system yet.

Elf popularity varied from one campaign to the next with our group. One crew was 2 elves and 2 humans, most recent crew is 1 elf, 2 humans and a dwarf. It varies.

Trenchcoats only get on characters for flavor usually. Most everyone runs with an armored jacket in the games I'm in.

Motorcycles are a quick, agile way to get to or from. But like the super agile adept or dancer or whatever, once you hit them, they're out like a light. It's a tradeoff. That said, my crew ususally has a team van, with individual rides like cycles or americars or somesuch.
Pendaric
I have been lucky with riggers and deckers but I made my own luck by intergrating them at the gaming table. I have had a fairly even mix of metahumans but humans seemed to be the favourite choice at my table. The build point system favouring cyber humans and player leanings.
Lets face it, the SR3 rigger rules where overly complicated. Once your experienced you can make them flow but thats a lot of effort, it put people off. SR4 you don't get the same advantages being a dedicated rigger when so many people can run drones.

As to trench coats, there the cloak of the neo hero plus you can hide stuff under them. Pink mohawk games love the style of a floor duster, its almost complusory. smile.gif

Bikes are a must for some characters in my game not just because of the cost but because I inforce the trecherous terrain of the barrens. You just can not guarentee a car will get through as easily as a bike.
Whipstitch
I'm an SR4 GM, and one of the nice things is that the Decker/Rigger thing is now a non-issue for me. By many standards you could say my groups munchkin out with everyone taking their role as far as they can without hardcapping and then they emphasize Edge. When I GM my current group has 1 cybered Face/Shaman, a Hacker, a Rigger and a Samurai. They're a tiny bit weak in social skills, but they've got the Edge to get by if they have to and the Face/Shaman is enough to see them through most encounters. He's more of a Summoner/Face & Astral Scout than a general practictioner, although he's unfortunately the only one with an Edge pool below 4. Combat spell wise he has Stun Bolt and that's it; he's mostly there to provide Social skills, Counterspelling, Mana Static and utility via Spirits. They actually rely pretty heavily on drones for combat backup when possible and everyone pitched in and bought at least 1 Steel Lynx to contribute to the drone army.

When it's not my turn to GM (we break things up with 1 shots regularly), the Rigger and Hacker are the first roles to be ignored, partially because the one shots are designed to be played relatively quick 'n' dirty so nobody wants to bother with the fiddly gear lists they require. That said, I don't think we've ever gone a run without at least having a hacker or rigger; it's just always having both that becomes an issue. Last time out was a Hacker/Rigger (we collaborated on resources so he maxed out on skills/commlink/'ware while everyone else chipped in a vehicle or drone again; a pox on the 50 point gear cap wink.gif) a cybered Hermetic (me!), a Samurai and a Social Adept with a ridiculous defense pool. Everyone but the Adept has a really nice Edge pool and the Samurai is a beast. People keep telling me Mages can dominate combat. So can the samurai, and he doesn't take drain doing it. I'll sit back here with my Mana Static and bag of "You can do WHAT?!" utility spells instead, thank you very much. My job is to provide crazy shit everyone else can't do, like the aforementioned Mana Static, Trid Phantasm, Heal, Levitation and Spirits that provide Weather Control and Concealment. As the samurai likes to say, leaving cover is for guys with more than 3 body.

Oh, and nobody plays Elves in the one shots because they kinda suck in the short term by the SR4 rules unless you've got a build in mind that really plays to their strengths.
Stahlseele
i've only built some riggers solely for certain concepts like the hover-drone-carrier or the air-ship drone carrier(so i like shield, sue me <.<) and only because we house-rules that remote controll decks can be placed into cyberlimbs just like cyber-decks . .

and no, i really don't know the hacker/decker/rigger rules either . . SR3 is slightly complicated in those regards *g*
Kyleigh Wester
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Mar 23 2008, 02:38 PM) *
In my SR2/3 days, both Riggers and Deckers required so much extra work from a player and GM perspective, that they were often ignored. I know when I GM'd, I flat out disallowed riggers and deckers as PC's because of it.


In second edition I can understand, but if you told me I couldn't be a Decker in third edition, were the rules are extremely simple ( I know all of them off the top of my head) then I'd probably flat out leave.


Glad to see some other people run into the all fighter issue and the motorcycle thing, this really helps answer some of my questions. I don't have the time for a full response response right now but I look forward to more replies and seeing how other GMs adapt to this issue.
hermit
QUOTE
only because we house-rules that remote controll decks can be placed into cyberlimbs just like cyber-decks . .

That's not a house rule.

QUOTE
In second edition I can understand, but if you told me I couldn't be a Decker in third edition, were the rules are extremely simple ( I know all of them off the top of my head) then I'd probably flat out leave.

Actually, so would I have.
Stahlseele
is not? O.o
hrm . . maybe i'm mixing something up, but we've houseruled something in that regard . . at least, i'm pretty sure we did o.O
hermit
It has been clarified in an Errata for SR3.01D that that is perfectly legal. At least for all I know. Don't ask me which one, though.
Stahlseele
but probably not with just 0,1 Essence-Cost for the DNI-Connection right? *g*
maybe we've even outsourced the VCR and the Cyber-deck like that . . i'm at work right now, i don't have access to my NSRCG with our changes to the DataBase so i ain't sure ^^#
cx2
Bikes often just seem a small neat personal transport, depending on the character. More a sammy thing than a face thing a lot of the time perhaps.

As to trench coats, two words... Syndicate Wars big grin.
hermit
QUOTE
but probably not with just 0,1 Essence-Cost for the DNI-Connection right? *g*

You have to pay for the rigger's foot too (0,3), and that's it, if I am not mistaken.
Stahlseele
yeah, okay, of course the essence-cost of the limb you wanna place it in has to be taken into account . . as an aside, i just watched the streethawk pilot again and am very inclined to make a character based on that . . they did the good old knight rider trick, but with moto-cross-bikes rolling out of the back of a medium transport or VAN-like Truck . . for such things, like getting away, bikes are pretty much unbeatable, if you don't have a flying drone that can support your weight ^^
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 23 2008, 01:33 PM) *
QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester @ Mar 23 2008, 01:27 PM) *
In second edition I can understand, but if you told me I couldn't be a Decker in third edition, were the rules are extremely simple ( I know all of them off the top of my head) then I'd probably flat out leave.

Actually, so would I have.


Honestly, my trepidation with riggers and deckers in SR3 may have been a holdover from SR2. Everyone we played with had almost no issue with it (the occasional mentioning of wanting to play one, but it never went far), so it never really became a problem. Were you part of that group, I'd have hated to see you go, but that would have been your choice. The "No deckers or riggers" ruling was always laid down from the moment we considered playing SR with a group, so there were no complaints going in, because everyone knew the rules.

That said, completely contrary to some people here it seems, we *rarely* see a change of people in the roleplaying groups I'm a part of. Only once have we booted someone, others have left because they chose to, and even then I still have fingers left on one hand when adding them all up. Only ever lost one GM, and that was due to... ummm... how to put this gently... they graduated from Crazy Go Nuts University and are now teaching there. I wonder if that's tactful enough. embarrassed.gif
hermit
QUOTE
Honestly, my trepidation with riggers and deckers in SR3 may have been a holdover from SR2. Everyone we played with had almost no issue with it (the occasional mentioning of wanting to play one, but it never went far), so it never really became a problem. Were you part of that group, I'd have hated to see you go, but that would have been your choice. The "No deckers or riggers" ruling was always laid down from the moment we considered playing SR with a group, so there were no complaints going in, because everyone knew the rules.

Well, we seem to come from opposing backgrounds then, playing style wise ... because, in all except my last gaming group, there were a rigger (me) and at least one decker present. My first group had: a rigger, a decker, a combat decker, a sam, and a tech-affine shaman.

QUOTE
That said, completely contrary to some people here it seems, we *rarely* see a change of people in the roleplaying groups I'm a part of.

Lucky you, then. I lost a GM like that too, btw. For other fun reasons too.
Eyeless Blond
As to bikes, you see a lot of them around in SR4 for the same reason you see them almost exclusively in third-world countries today: they're cheap to own, easy to maintain, get decent gas mileage, and can handle poor road conditions far better than your average (non off-road) car.

As to elves, I can't say why you see so many elves; they suck now unless you're making a Pornomancer. You really have to min-max that Cha to make them worthwhile over the lowly human. The thing I've been seeing more and more of these days, though, is orks. They're everywhere; just about every build I've seen that's not Technical Skill-oriented--and sometimes even those--are done with orks.

Then there's riggers. Ugh, riggers. I'm trying to build a hacker/rigger right now, and I'm having the worst time of it, because the rules are scattered in the most unlikely places. For example, anyone know what the Signal rating of a Steel Lynx is? I'll give you a hint: it's not in the vehicle entry; it's not on page 158 where they talk about vehicle attributes; it's not on page 238 with the vehicle remote control rules either. I had to ask around on DS before someone pointed out page 214, where they give Matrix attributes to non-commlink objects. I'm still a little curious, though, whether or not the Steel Lynx is a drone or a security device, but I guess I may as well just give it a 3.

I'm still a little confused as to which attributes replace your physical ones when you've switched into VR driving. Apparently Agility is replaced by Sensor, for some reason, as that's the attribute you use when rolling Gunnery by remote, and Reaction is replaced by Response. Whose Response? The drone's? The rigger's commlink's? The lowest of the two? Where is this spelled out in the book? Ugh, what a mess.
hermit
QUOTE
I'm still a little curious, though, whether or not the Steel Lynx is a drone or a security device, but I guess I may as well just give it a 3.

Going out on a limb a bit, I imagine the Steel Lynx is a security vehicle (drone) rather than drone like the chariot is and thus will have signal Device Rating 4. You may want to up it's response to 5 ASAP, though.

QUOTE
Whose Response? The drone's? The rigger's commlink's? The lowest of the two?

Whatever's lower.
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 23 2008, 04:36 PM) *
Well, we seem to come from opposing backgrounds then, playing style wise ... because, in all except my last gaming group, there were a rigger (me) and at least one decker present. My first group had: a rigger, a decker, a combat decker, a sam, and a tech-affine shaman.

So it seems. Ain't it great how much experiences can color/taint our perceptions? I'm glad it worked for you guys though. In a lot of ways, I regret not having it work for us.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 23 2008, 04:36 PM) *
Lucky you, then. I lost a GM like that too, btw. For other fun reasons too.

Yeah, CGNU seems to attract so many people each year. Hates that school a lot.
Eyeless Blond
How about a Doberman? The thing's got a weapon mount on it standard; I'd argue that makes it a security device rather than a normal drone.

Or the offensive version of the Lone Star IBall?
Kyleigh Wester
We've always had the same people, we've never lost a player, errr, we kicked him out but we eventually let him back in. We might kick him out for the same reason too. Suspected cheating and talking on his damned phone in the middle of a session. Most of our players are close friends.

Being a GM I can say I hate having a decker-less team because, realistically, I can't see a complex not having heavy technological security.


Our group works in a differant way. We have five players and we swap GMing week for week. For example, next Saturday is Jeremy, and the one after that is me. It actually works out real well and we all have our little arcs going. If someone needs of course they can GM multiple times in a row.
hermit
QUOTE
So it seems. Ain't it great how much experiences can color/taint our perceptions? I'm glad it worked for you guys though. In a lot of ways, I regret not having it work for us.

Yeah. Decking and Rigging in 3 was pretty smooth, rules-wise, actually, once you got the hang of it. In 2, on the other hand ... our usual GM was pretty soon rather good at timing the decker's part so the rest of the group could go fetch lunch kebab. Tat worked out nicely too. Should the decker fuck up, the plugholding duty PC would just pull the plug on autopilot (with the GM rolling reaction). Worked out nicely too. Rigging was houseruled a bit and drones were treated like characters, though all had the same initiative, in 3 as wella s 2. we never really bothered with maneuver tests for drones, only for larger vehicles. That integrated them very well, and with captain's chair or a bit more houseruling in 2, the rigger was able to be mobile while the drones did their thing too. excellent for infiltration jobs that need lots of firepower as backup.

QUOTE
How about a Doberman? The thing's got a weapon mount on it standard; I'd argue that makes it a security device rather than a normal drone.

Or the offensive version of the Lone Star IBall?

The first is a security device, since it actually does security work. the second is just a grenade with minimal sensors and propulsion, so I giess it diesn't really have much in terms of response wasted on it.

QUOTE
We've always had the same people, we've never lost a player, errr, we kicked him out but we eventually let him back in. We might kick him out for the same reason too. Suspected cheating and talking on his damned phone in the middle of a session. Most of our players are close friends.

Yah. In my last group, we eventually established a rule that cells ringing loudly and not going out of the room to take the call was punished by Karma loss. That worked somewhat. We kicked several in previous groups, but not in that one. The last was full of mature people. Really fun troupe. Pity it dissolved.

QUOTE
Being a GM I can say I hate having a decker-less team because, realistically, I can't see a complex not having heavy technological security.

Too true. Though usually, this is circumvented by use of NPC deckers.

QUOTE
Our group works in a differant way. We have five players and we swap GMing week for week. For example, next Saturday is Jeremy, and the one after that is me. It actually works out real well and we all have our little arcs going. If someone needs of course they can GM multiple times in a row.

Congrats that all of your plaers are up to GMing. In my old groups, maybe 2 to 4 out of some 6 were. It's pretty much the ideal group if that works out; that way, noone is frustrated because he can never play.

In short: I'm green with envy. biggrin.gif
nathanross
QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester @ Mar 23 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

Action heros don't last in the shadows, tech guys who know how to hide right last quite some time if they don't mess with the wrong people. I found it easier to survive by knowing people. Back in the 60's, a man could go without knowing any of that matrix jumbo, nowadays, you gotta know it to survive. I always pay a good friend in the Choson rings to watch my electronic back, and he has hooked me up with some awesome bugs and software to make using 'em easy. Boy does he have some favors to call down on.

QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester @ Mar 23 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?

In my experience, elves will be elves, and orks will be orks. Just the way some people roll you know chummer?

QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester @ Mar 23 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?

Man, I haven't worn trenchcoats since the Secure Longcoat went out of fashion in the 60's. Nowadays I'm all about the suits. I still keep a Ulysses in my saddle bags for the rain, can't let my clothes get ruined by the acid rain.

QUOTE (Kyleigh Wester @ Mar 23 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Why do people always choose motorcycles? Their not practical. My character has a van he named LightWalk. Figure it out.

Three reasons to drive a motorcycle: gas, parking, and security. Petrol costs too damn much now, in 2070 its 10x worse. There is no way I can rationalize a van unless the team is carpooling and the rigger has a few stratos-9 (or SR4 equivalent) and Dobermen to unload. Parking is also a total bitch in downtown Seattle at midday for a car. Sure Ares recently built a new parking garage, but that barely handles the current excess. Those SINers just have too much money to waste. As for security, can you fit your car through the door of your Barrens squat? Didn't think so. Finding a nice flat in Puyallup that has access to a garage and maglock is near unheard of. Bikes are much easier to handle and maintain.
nathanross
EDIT - Double Post
Kyleigh Wester
I prefer Vans since we can move the whole team in one vehicle. The Van is fitted for running with a stabilization unit and desktop computer built it, as well as a large spool of chain for our manipulations and a weapon rack for ammo and guns. It makes things...simple. To Hermit, we do have two people who wont GM in our group. Laron doesn't want to read the books (lazy) and Cody, well, he's been kicked out once already so most of us are leery about letting him GM, though he wants too. (Plus, he already let it slip once that he would actively try to kill the PCs, rather then work with them for an entertaining session. Trying to make a game challenging is fine, trying to screw over your players isn't.)

He doesn't talk on the phone he texts...all the time. It makes no noise but the fact he's not paying attention is distracting in itself.
hermit
QUOTE
As for security, can you fit your car through the door of your Barrens squat? (...) Finding a nice flat in Puyallup that has access to a garage and maglock is near unheard of.

Does everyone's character live in Barrens squats? With jobs raking in five-digit sums, few really do. It just makes no sense unless you play seriously low level. Renton, the seedy parts of Downtown (like Lowell), or a warehouse, make much more sense for hideouts.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 27 2008, 12:09 PM) *
Man, I haven't worn trenchcoats since the Secure Longcoat went out of fashion in the 60's. Nowadays I'm all about the suits. I still keep a Ulysses in my saddle bags for the rain, can't let my clothes get ruined by the acid rain.


What ever drove the Secure Longcoat out of fashion?

I'd wear one over my Armored Suits... like I wear a good trenchcoat over my suit these days.
Kyleigh Wester
All my characters generally end up with a high life style quickly, if not right from the start. We don't do a lot in the barrens, we mostly do anti corp stuff such as infiltration and in my next session they'll be running a defense. Now, for hideouts and stuff we do kind of abuse the Barrens, but it doesn't matter because i'm trying to persuade our group to move out of Seattle anyway. I'm tired of Seattle and want to try something like Knoxville for the rest of our current campaign. I just need the source book Knoxville is in...I know I saw it somewhere.
hermit
That would either be Shadows of North America or Neo anarchist's Guide to North America. Though I suppose the Knoxville chapter wouldn't be too long in either book.
MaxHunter
riggers, hackers, elves and vans.

riggers

We used to see some rigger action in SR3. I remember one character who was a paraplegic albino dwarf rigger in a wheelchair. Eventually, his munchkinism proved his undoing.

-The anecdote, if you want to know, I remember it dearly... -
[ Spoiler ]


Now in SR4 anyone can be a rigger. Out of 10 regular players only one has one installed, an orc samurai with a tricked out harley.

Hackers

Interestingly, we had more decking in previous editions. One of the main characters in the past storyline was a PC decker, and it was great fun, even with all the rules problems there were.

Now everyone agrees that SR4 hacking rules -even incomplete- are much simpler and easier to plug in. All players like the turn hacking has taken but no one really wanted to play the hacker. Just recently a player made a hacker character, of course, with full body replacement, body 9 and like 17 boxes in the physical condition monitor.

elves

I have found some players like elves, and some players outright hate them as well. There has not been a profusion of elves in our long history of SR, just a few here and there.

Currently there is one elf out of these 10 characters. A couple elf characters have died or retired as well.

(curiously; our gaming history comprises some 15 years and maybe a hundred characters. Only one of those was a troll.)

Orks

Orks on the other hand are much more frequent with the SR4 rules than before.
Out of these active 10 characters 3 are orks. Also there were a couple more orcs characters in the sr4 stage that were killed or belonged to players who stopped playing.

Plus, orks are cooler now, with orxploitation and the gangsta flavor they got in the new rules. And don't forget the cool physical bonuses.

Let's face it, orks are the new master race and humans should be afraid of the day they get organized.

motorbikes vs. vans


It's very interesting this discussion has come out. I am experiencing all sides of the story right now.

One of the teams I gm for are all into bikes. All of them have motorbikes, invest heavily on them, use them extensively and even program long rides into their characters lives
just for the sake of it. Their last was a Seattle-Boston road trip.

Another group has pooled their money to buy a S.U.V. they use "for work". They still own their own vehicles. They would say it is much more convenient to be all together in one vehicle. They value the versatility of a tricked out van and, especially, the possibility to carry all their gear. Tons of it.

ups! gotta work. I'll keep it up later

Cheers,

Max













nathanross
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 27 2008, 03:19 PM) *
Does everyone's character live in Barrens squats?

No, that was just an ic.gif post from my favorite char Fuku who has been living in Tarislar for quite some time. Tarislar has always been one of my favorite settings, and he has connections all over the Seattle underworld. Right now I am waiting for more info on the Laesa so I can work more of his time into that.

QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Mar 27 2008, 03:30 PM) *
What ever drove the Secure Longcoat out of fashion?

ic.gif Omae, you need to get with the times! The Securetech Longcoat is a classic, but sometime you have to move on. It is nice to hit up Penumbra in the old longcoat every now and then, though.
---
Max, hilarious story on the rigger, rotfl.gif
Never trust Aztechnology over your chums.

Seriously though, vans are great! No team should be without a bulldog equipped with a mini fridge and a mini gun. I just prefer bikes for my personal transit (Johnny cab days are over!).
Trobon
The thing about the Lined Coat is that it is a great thing to have if you have the average body score. Great protection for no agility penalty. That being said I wear the Actioneer Business Suit myself.

Next game I think I'm going to try my hand at a technomancer. I always played deckers, but in 4th edition I just haven't for some reason.

EDIT: I forgot. The Urban Explorer Jumpsuit would be great armor if it wasn't for how dorky it is to wear a jumpsuit while running twirl.gif
Eyeless Blond
It's all bout the Horizon Double Revolution now. It's not just a mere motorcycle; it is a single giant wheel that you ride inside.

GIANT WHEEL! rotfl.gif
hermit
Driving that would get a character 1 negative street rep for making an idiot out of themselves in a campaign I GM.
Kyleigh Wester
We have a bat shaman who can manipulate metal so well he can make a giant walking automaton of metal and just go down the road. Of course, i've warned him if he actually does someone might shoot at the strange metal creature moving down the street but...yeah. (Especially since he can only make his metal up to barrier rating 7 if I can remember correctly.
hermit
Does he also have industrial machinery br and walkers br on minimum 4, and an engineering knowledge skill? Otherwise, all I'd let him do would be forming giant metal statues.

Yeah yeah. Restrictive, evil me. wink.gif
Kyleigh Wester
No, but he basically just makes large limbs and moves them step by step via magic. I consider this concept to be simple enough to let him do it. He uses basic concepts that resemble real objects.
hermit
Okay ... and he manages to sustain four levitation spells (one for every limb) .... how?
Kyleigh Wester
He creates the four limbs which should stay upright on their own and a platform for him to sit on, there should be no levitation required, only a very basic understanding on the mechanics of movement. They he just uses manipulate metal to force the metal to move in a way resembling steps. All he has to do is sustain Metal Manipulation for this to work. If constructed right, the pieces should support each other.
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Trobon @ Mar 28 2008, 12:13 AM) *
EDIT: I forgot. The Urban Explorer Jumpsuit would be great armor if it wasn't for how dorky it is to wear a jumpsuit while running twirl.gif


That depends: do they look like
http://www.scubatoys.com/store/wetsuits/pi.../microprene.jpg
http://www.actionfigure2002.com/site_image...Ver_Hot_480.jpg
or
http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entir...suit.071907.jpg ?

b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 28 2008, 12:22 AM) *
It's all bout the Horizon Double Revolution now. It's not just a mere motorcycle; it is a single giant wheel that you ride inside.

GIANT WHEEL! rotfl.gif


Can I buy one that works without going in and out of my ass and mouth?
Wakshaani
My my, much covered in a small area (And my first post in, wow, forever.)

Right then!

Firstly, in older games, we *usually* had a Rigger, but not always. Only two players ever tried them, however, and if neither was in the group at the time, or had decided to play something different, then we had no Rigger. Back then, their job was to sit in the van and wait. Kinda dull and boring. Yes, they could have had drones and so forth, but none did. They did lots of RP during the legwork section, but once the run started? "I'll keep the engine running. Have fun storming the castle!"

Deckers, meanwhile, were 100% NPC across the board. "Johnny, get the door open and get those cameras off." "On it." ... ... ... "You're clear." Nobody wanted to deal with the solo adventure aspect of a single Decker and, in truth, after they got the 'Taint' on them due to that, no one even bothered to *learn* the decking rules for later editions. This continues to be a problem today, with no one locally being able to understand the 4th ed ones. We'd love to HAVE a decker, but there's still a dozen versions of "How do you hack open a door?" answers, so, we're still on pause and still using NPCs for it. (No, don't derail this with a big Decker thing. We'll all be stabbed.)

On Race

As for Elves, they come and go in waves. Some players take them, either because A) they're Elf Fans or B) they're gunbunny types who just *have* to have that reaction. A Charisma-based Elf is pretty much unheard of here. Yes, they talk with great skill as a faceman, but, prejudice being so common, having your only talker sidelined when meeting, say, some Orks? That's crippling. Humans, being the centerline, tend to work better, even with the lower Charisma. (And no Pornomancers, thank Gwar.) So, we get some, but not many.

Orks used to not exist. Trolls, sure, but never Orks. "Why bother? They're like Trolls Lite! Please." These days, however, they're everywhere. It's hard to find a combat-side characetr who isn't a Metahuman instead of plain ol' human, now, with Orks having a significant lead. Trolls are simply too rare to not get hassled in the good parts of town and those fake liscenses just don't hold up when Lone Star finds you toting around a rocket launcher a half mile from a Shiawase facility, you know? The big guys just can't hide anymore, whiel Orks blend in easily. (Can you describe him, ma'am? | Well, he was an Ork. | ... Well, that's got us down to three million suspects. It's a start.)

On Long Coats

Rarely seen, aside from Mages (Shamans sometimes, Hermetics *always*) and teh rare Matrix-fan Gunbunny. Most stick to armored vests (If combatty), vests (Pretty much evryone), or Jumpsuits (If on an active run) ... jumpsuits, in particular, are beloved by all. Skintight, armor plated, look post-modern, and then get tweaked out with electricity resistance, a chemical-proof helmet, and off you go, *stylin'*.


On a quality ride

There's a team van. There's *always* a Team Van. Bulldog's parent company must have some of the most valuable stock in the world with how much love Shadowrunners give them. They're, like, the official *sponsor* of Shadowruns.

Bikes pop up sometimes. Street Sams sometimes (The sleek n sexy ones, not the big chunky muscleguy types), gangers, but that's it. Eurocar Westwind also makes a rare popup, but I have to give mad props to oen group who went to all professional-style meets in a rented limo. Normal meets? You creep around and look normal, but for teh BIG stuff? Drive in style. Impress the Johnson with your own professionallism. Just try to keep the driver quiet about it being rented instead of owned. smile.gif Bikes allowed team members to go do things without the van, which allowed them to seperate.

MOST runners, however, never bother to buy a vehicle, assuming that they'll just ride the van everywhere. They wind up having to take a taxi or trains. Mind you, having a Troll Sammy trying to ride to the meeting on a train, while wearing full gear? Not the wisest of moves.
nathanross
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Mar 30 2008, 07:07 AM) *
Deckers, meanwhile, were 100% NPC across the board. "Johnny, get the door open and get those cameras off." "On it." ... ... ... "You're clear." Nobody wanted to deal with the solo adventure aspect of a single Decker and, in truth, after they got the 'Taint' on them due to that, no one even bothered to *learn* the decking rules for later editions. This continues to be a problem today, with no one locally being able to understand the 4th ed ones. We'd love to HAVE a decker, but there's still a dozen versions of "How do you hack open a door?" answers, so, we're still on pause and still using NPCs for it. (No, don't derail this with a big Decker thing. We'll all be stabbed.)

I am surprised you haven't jumped into the SR4 matrix yet. Now that everything is universal and wireless you can do so much with a 90BP investment in Electronics and Cracking Skill Groups and all the Hacking Programs. Of course, once you open pandora's box, everyone will be investing in hacking skills and once the programs are cracked it's all over.

I can't even image a run without at least 5 spy drones (I prefer 10+ spies, a few dobermans, and at least one stratos-9)

Now the hacker can rig without selling his soul, and the rigger can hack without selling his family for medical experiments.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Mar 30 2008, 07:07 AM) *
On Race
(Can you describe him, ma'am? | Well, he was an Ork. | ... Well, that's got us down to three million suspects. It's a start.)

And with a constant growth rate of 40%!

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Mar 30 2008, 07:07 AM) *
There's a team van. There's *always* a Team Van. Bulldog's parent company must have some of the most valuable stock in the world with how much love Shadowrunners give them. They're, like, the official *sponsor* of Shadowruns.

Wow can I ever relate. We had a spirit whore mage in our group for a while, who used movement and guard on the rigger's Bulldog. We called it the Mystery Machine. Never got around to painting it though.
Ryu
Q:Do you usually have to do without riggers and deckers? Have you ever got stuck with a group of all fighters, making it difficult to come up with a realistic run?

Since SR4, we always had a decker. The current one dropped out because of WoW-addiction (not funny), so currently only one char can hack as secondary specialisation (after combat). The all-fighters thing happend in some group constellations, but is not common. At least one mage is usually present. If you have issues with the matrix rules, use Moon-Hawks houserules.

Q: Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

Yes, when I started GMing for the current bunch. The previous GM had stressed combat over everything else, and made it very deadly, so the typical arms race was in full progress. Once everyone had a fresh character, with some soft limits enforced by me (ie 3 IPs max, and that for combat specialists), and I had shown that every area would get some spotlight, the problem was ended. Nowadays everyone can fight in some way, but it is usually only the second concern, after stealth or face skills.

Q:Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?

No, most play humans or orks. We┬┤ve always had orks, even in SR3. One player is an elven fanboy, and we had a munched elven mage.

Q: Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?

Yes, excepting a trenchcoat over an armored suit in rainy weather. Urban Camo Suits, Chameleon Suits or Jumpsuits are what gets worn on a run. And only tricked-out full body armor goes well with heavy weapons.

Q: Why do people always choose motorcycles?

Independend superfast disposeable movement. That Westwind left in the woods does hurt the budget bigtime. A bike can be replaced. Few of our characters have no vehicle for long. Some have multiples, at least one bike and one car is somewhat common. One character owns a Westwind for downtime only.
Wakshaani
As a rule of thumb, by the by, I suggest a fifty-fifty split on "Good in a scrap" and "Focuses on other things". A group of four, thus, would need two fighting types (Be they Sammy, Adept, or whatever) and two non-fighty types Face! Rigger! Decker! Magician! More!) ... the fighty types can usually do some backup (Such as a fighter-face, aka, "Mercenary Team Leader"), but the big thing that they do is, when a run turns sour (And, well, they will), their job is to get the team's hoops through it intact.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 30 2008, 06:29 PM) *
I am surprised you haven't jumped into the SR4 matrix yet. Now that everything is universal and wireless you can do so much with a 90BP investment in Electronics and Cracking Skill Groups and all the Hacking Programs. Of course, once you open pandora's box, everyone will be investing in hacking skills and once the programs are cracked it's all over.

I can't even image a run without at least 5 spy drones (I prefer 10+ spies, a few dobermans, and at least one stratos-9)


The big problem is that nobody can quite figure it out. It just doesn't quite 'click' mentally and, since no one's done a decker in a decade, locally, there's no "Heritage" knowledge to draw from. This leads to the "How do you open a locked door?" question. There's been three answers, normally, none of which seem to work for us. And if we can't figure out how to open a *door*, then the rest is just beyond us.

Needless to say, I'm more than a wee bit interested in the "Matrix for Dummies" section of the Decker book. (I know, I know, 'Hackers', but, man, I'm closing in on twenty years of this game, leave me my dinosaur-like terminology! Nyeah!)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012