The Decker/Rigger issue, Why so few Options

[nathanross]

EDIT - Double Post

[Kyleigh Wester]

I prefer Vans since we can move the whole team in one vehicle. The Van is fitted for running with a stabilization unit and desktop computer built it, as well as a large spool of chain for our manipulations and a weapon rack for ammo and guns. It makes things...simple. To Hermit, we do have two people who wont GM in our group. Laron doesn't want to read the books (lazy) and Cody, well, he's been kicked out once already so most of us are leery about letting him GM, though he wants too. (Plus, he already let it slip once that he would actively try to kill the PCs, rather then work with them for an entertaining session. Trying to make a game challenging is fine, trying to screw over your players isn't.)

He doesn't talk on the phone he texts...all the time. It makes no noise but the fact he's not paying attention is distracting in itself.

[hermit]

As for security, can you fit your car through the door of your Barrens squat? (...) Finding a nice flat in Puyallup that has access to a garage and maglock is near unheard of.

Does everyone's character live in Barrens squats? With jobs raking in five-digit sums, few really do. It just makes no sense unless you play seriously low level. Renton, the seedy parts of Downtown (like Lowell), or a warehouse, make much more sense for hideouts.

[cryptoknight]

Man, I haven't worn trenchcoats since the Secure Longcoat went out of fashion in the 60's. Nowadays I'm all about the suits. I still keep a Ulysses in my saddle bags for the rain, can't let my clothes get ruined by the acid rain.

What ever drove the Secure Longcoat out of fashion?

I'd wear one over my Armored Suits... like I wear a good trenchcoat over my suit these days.

[Kyleigh Wester]

All my characters generally end up with a high life style quickly, if not right from the start. We don't do a lot in the barrens, we mostly do anti corp stuff such as infiltration and in my next session they'll be running a defense. Now, for hideouts and stuff we do kind of abuse the Barrens, but it doesn't matter because i'm trying to persuade our group to move out of Seattle anyway. I'm tired of Seattle and want to try something like Knoxville for the rest of our current campaign. I just need the source book Knoxville is in...I know I saw it somewhere.

[hermit]

That would either be Shadows of North America or Neo anarchist's Guide to North America. Though I suppose the Knoxville chapter wouldn't be too long in either book.

[MaxHunter]

riggers, hackers, elves and vans.

riggers

We used to see some rigger action in SR3. I remember one character who was a paraplegic albino dwarf rigger in a wheelchair. Eventually, his munchkinism proved his undoing.

-The anecdote, if you want to know, I remember it dearly... -

[ Spoiler ]

(the runners had just found out their sponsor Johnson was in fact an Aztechnology agent, using the runners as the corps pawns in some still unknown scheme)

Character (a former doc wagon) -Hey men, do you remember Mr. Johnson offered to pay your share with some betaware? And that I was supposed to perform the surgery?
Rigger -hell yes.
Medic -Well... I have been running some tests with the headware and, to be honest, there are a couple modules in there that I can't figure out what they do... I am having bad feelings about this...
Rigger- But is it betaware?
Medic-Yup
Rigger-Then I don't care, put it on.

:roll:

Now in SR4 anyone can be a rigger. Out of 10 regular players only one has one installed, an orc samurai with a tricked out harley.

Hackers

Interestingly, we had more decking in previous editions. One of the main characters in the past storyline was a PC decker, and it was great fun, even with all the rules problems there were.

Now everyone agrees that SR4 hacking rules -even incomplete- are much simpler and easier to plug in. All players like the turn hacking has taken but no one really wanted to play the hacker. Just recently a player made a hacker character, of course, with full body replacement, body 9 and like 17 boxes in the physical condition monitor.

elves

I have found some players like elves, and some players outright hate them as well. There has not been a profusion of elves in our long history of SR, just a few here and there.

Currently there is one elf out of these 10 characters. A couple elf characters have died or retired as well.

(curiously; our gaming history comprises some 15 years and maybe a hundred characters. Only one of those was a troll.)

Orks

Orks on the other hand are much more frequent with the SR4 rules than before.
Out of these active 10 characters 3 are orks. Also there were a couple more orcs characters in the sr4 stage that were killed or belonged to players who stopped playing.

Plus, orks are cooler now, with orxploitation and the gangsta flavor they got in the new rules. And don't forget the cool physical bonuses.

Let's face it, orks are the new master race and humans should be afraid of the day they get organized.

motorbikes vs. vans


It's very interesting this discussion has come out. I am experiencing all sides of the story right now.

One of the teams I gm for are all into bikes. All of them have motorbikes, invest heavily on them, use them extensively and even program long rides into their characters lives
just for the sake of it. Their last was a Seattle-Boston road trip.

Another group has pooled their money to buy a S.U.V. they use "for work". They still own their own vehicles. They would say it is much more convenient to be all together in one vehicle. They value the versatility of a tricked out van and, especially, the possibility to carry all their gear. Tons of it.

ups! gotta work. I'll keep it up later

Cheers,

Max

[nathanross]

Does everyone's character live in Barrens squats?

No, that was just an (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ic.gif) post from my favorite char Fuku who has been living in Tarislar for quite some time. Tarislar has always been one of my favorite settings, and he has connections all over the Seattle underworld. Right now I am waiting for more info on the Laesa so I can work more of his time into that.

What ever drove the Secure Longcoat out of fashion?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ic.gif) Omae, you need to get with the times! The Securetech Longcoat is a classic, but sometime you have to move on. It is nice to hit up Penumbra in the old longcoat every now and then, though.
---
Max, hilarious story on the rigger, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)
Never trust Aztechnology over your chums.

Seriously though, vans are great! No team should be without a bulldog equipped with a mini fridge and a mini gun. I just prefer bikes for my personal transit (Johnny cab days are over!).

[Trobon]

The thing about the Lined Coat is that it is a great thing to have if you have the average body score. Great protection for no agility penalty. That being said I wear the Actioneer Business Suit myself.

Next game I think I'm going to try my hand at a technomancer. I always played deckers, but in 4th edition I just haven't for some reason.

EDIT: I forgot. The Urban Explorer Jumpsuit would be great armor if it wasn't for how dorky it is to wear a jumpsuit while running (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Eyeless Blond]

It's all bout the Horizon Double Revolution now. It's not just a mere motorcycle; it is a single giant wheel that you ride inside.

GIANT WHEEL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[hermit]

Driving that would get a character 1 negative street rep for making an idiot out of themselves in a campaign I GM.

[Kyleigh Wester]

We have a bat shaman who can manipulate metal so well he can make a giant walking automaton of metal and just go down the road. Of course, i've warned him if he actually does someone might shoot at the strange metal creature moving down the street but...yeah. (Especially since he can only make his metal up to barrier rating 7 if I can remember correctly.

[hermit]

Does he also have industrial machinery br and walkers br on minimum 4, and an engineering knowledge skill? Otherwise, all I'd let him do would be forming giant metal statues.

Yeah yeah. Restrictive, evil me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kyleigh Wester]

No, but he basically just makes large limbs and moves them step by step via magic. I consider this concept to be simple enough to let him do it. He uses basic concepts that resemble real objects.

[hermit]

Okay ... and he manages to sustain four levitation spells (one for every limb) .... how?

[Kyleigh Wester]

He creates the four limbs which should stay upright on their own and a platform for him to sit on, there should be no levitation required, only a very basic understanding on the mechanics of movement. They he just uses manipulate metal to force the metal to move in a way resembling steps. All he has to do is sustain Metal Manipulation for this to work. If constructed right, the pieces should support each other.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

EDIT: I forgot. The Urban Explorer Jumpsuit would be great armor if it wasn't for how dorky it is to wear a jumpsuit while running (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

That depends: do they look like
http://www.scubatoys.com/store/wetsuits/pi.../microprene.jpg
http://www.actionfigure2002.com/site_image...Ver_Hot_480.jpg
or
http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entir...suit.071907.jpg ?

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

It's all bout the Horizon Double Revolution now. It's not just a mere motorcycle; it is a single giant wheel that you ride inside.

GIANT WHEEL! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Can I buy one that works without going in and out of my ass and mouth?

[Wakshaani]

My my, much covered in a small area (And my first post in, wow, forever.)

Right then!

Firstly, in older games, we *usually* had a Rigger, but not always. Only two players ever tried them, however, and if neither was in the group at the time, or had decided to play something different, then we had no Rigger. Back then, their job was to sit in the van and wait. Kinda dull and boring. Yes, they could have had drones and so forth, but none did. They did lots of RP during the legwork section, but once the run started? "I'll keep the engine running. Have fun storming the castle!"

Deckers, meanwhile, were 100% NPC across the board. "Johnny, get the door open and get those cameras off." "On it." ... ... ... "You're clear." Nobody wanted to deal with the solo adventure aspect of a single Decker and, in truth, after they got the 'Taint' on them due to that, no one even bothered to *learn* the decking rules for later editions. This continues to be a problem today, with no one locally being able to understand the 4th ed ones. We'd love to HAVE a decker, but there's still a dozen versions of "How do you hack open a door?" answers, so, we're still on pause and still using NPCs for it. (No, don't derail this with a big Decker thing. We'll all be stabbed.)

On Race

As for Elves, they come and go in waves. Some players take them, either because A) they're Elf Fans or B) they're gunbunny types who just *have* to have that reaction. A Charisma-based Elf is pretty much unheard of here. Yes, they talk with great skill as a faceman, but, prejudice being so common, having your only talker sidelined when meeting, say, some Orks? That's crippling. Humans, being the centerline, tend to work better, even with the lower Charisma. (And no Pornomancers, thank Gwar.) So, we get some, but not many.

Orks used to not exist. Trolls, sure, but never Orks. "Why bother? They're like Trolls Lite! Please." These days, however, they're everywhere. It's hard to find a combat-side characetr who isn't a Metahuman instead of plain ol' human, now, with Orks having a significant lead. Trolls are simply too rare to not get hassled in the good parts of town and those fake liscenses just don't hold up when Lone Star finds you toting around a rocket launcher a half mile from a Shiawase facility, you know? The big guys just can't hide anymore, whiel Orks blend in easily. (Can you describe him, ma'am? | Well, he was an Ork. | ... Well, that's got us down to three million suspects. It's a start.)

On Long Coats

Rarely seen, aside from Mages (Shamans sometimes, Hermetics *always*) and teh rare Matrix-fan Gunbunny. Most stick to armored vests (If combatty), vests (Pretty much evryone), or Jumpsuits (If on an active run) ... jumpsuits, in particular, are beloved by all. Skintight, armor plated, look post-modern, and then get tweaked out with electricity resistance, a chemical-proof helmet, and off you go, *stylin'*.


On a quality ride

There's a team van. There's *always* a Team Van. Bulldog's parent company must have some of the most valuable stock in the world with how much love Shadowrunners give them. They're, like, the official *sponsor* of Shadowruns.

Bikes pop up sometimes. Street Sams sometimes (The sleek n sexy ones, not the big chunky muscleguy types), gangers, but that's it. Eurocar Westwind also makes a rare popup, but I have to give mad props to oen group who went to all professional-style meets in a rented limo. Normal meets? You creep around and look normal, but for teh BIG stuff? Drive in style. Impress the Johnson with your own professionallism. Just try to keep the driver quiet about it being rented instead of owned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Bikes allowed team members to go do things without the van, which allowed them to seperate.

MOST runners, however, never bother to buy a vehicle, assuming that they'll just ride the van everywhere. They wind up having to take a taxi or trains. Mind you, having a Troll Sammy trying to ride to the meeting on a train, while wearing full gear? Not the wisest of moves.

[nathanross]

Deckers, meanwhile, were 100% NPC across the board. "Johnny, get the door open and get those cameras off." "On it." ... ... ... "You're clear." Nobody wanted to deal with the solo adventure aspect of a single Decker and, in truth, after they got the 'Taint' on them due to that, no one even bothered to *learn* the decking rules for later editions. This continues to be a problem today, with no one locally being able to understand the 4th ed ones. We'd love to HAVE a decker, but there's still a dozen versions of "How do you hack open a door?" answers, so, we're still on pause and still using NPCs for it. (No, don't derail this with a big Decker thing. We'll all be stabbed.)

I am surprised you haven't jumped into the SR4 matrix yet. Now that everything is universal and wireless you can do so much with a 90BP investment in Electronics and Cracking Skill Groups and all the Hacking Programs. Of course, once you open pandora's box, everyone will be investing in hacking skills and once the programs are cracked it's all over.

I can't even image a run without at least 5 spy drones (I prefer 10+ spies, a few dobermans, and at least one stratos-9)

Now the hacker can rig without selling his soul, and the rigger can hack without selling his family for medical experiments.

On Race
(Can you describe him, ma'am? | Well, he was an Ork. | ... Well, that's got us down to three million suspects. It's a start.)

And with a constant growth rate of 40%!

There's a team van. There's *always* a Team Van. Bulldog's parent company must have some of the most valuable stock in the world with how much love Shadowrunners give them. They're, like, the official *sponsor* of Shadowruns.

Wow can I ever relate. We had a spirit whore mage in our group for a while, who used movement and guard on the rigger's Bulldog. We called it the Mystery Machine. Never got around to painting it though.

[Ryu]

Q:Do you usually have to do without riggers and deckers? Have you ever got stuck with a group of all fighters, making it difficult to come up with a realistic run?

Since SR4, we always had a decker. The current one dropped out because of WoW-addiction (not funny), so currently only one char can hack as secondary specialisation (after combat). The all-fighters thing happend in some group constellations, but is not common. At least one mage is usually present. If you have issues with the matrix rules, use Moon-Hawks houserules.

Q: Most people want to play the action hero or the fighter, so I think that's what people see most of in the end. As GMs, have you ever run into this problem?

Yes, when I started GMing for the current bunch. The previous GM had stressed combat over everything else, and made it very deadly, so the typical arms race was in full progress. Once everyone had a fresh character, with some soft limits enforced by me (ie 3 IPs max, and that for combat specialists), and I had shown that every area would get some spotlight, the problem was ended. Nowadays everyone can fight in some way, but it is usually only the second concern, after stealth or face skills.

Q:Is it just me, or do too many people play Elves?

No, most play humans or orks. We´ve always had orks, even in SR3. One player is an elven fanboy, and we had a munched elven mage.

Q: Is the trenchcoat thing only a fad in my group?

Yes, excepting a trenchcoat over an armored suit in rainy weather. Urban Camo Suits, Chameleon Suits or Jumpsuits are what gets worn on a run. And only tricked-out full body armor goes well with heavy weapons.

Q: Why do people always choose motorcycles?

Independend superfast disposeable movement. That Westwind left in the woods does hurt the budget bigtime. A bike can be replaced. Few of our characters have no vehicle for long. Some have multiples, at least one bike and one car is somewhat common. One character owns a Westwind for downtime only.

[Wakshaani]

As a rule of thumb, by the by, I suggest a fifty-fifty split on "Good in a scrap" and "Focuses on other things". A group of four, thus, would need two fighting types (Be they Sammy, Adept, or whatever) and two non-fighty types Face! Rigger! Decker! Magician! More!) ... the fighty types can usually do some backup (Such as a fighter-face, aka, "Mercenary Team Leader"), but the big thing that they do is, when a run turns sour (And, well, they will), their job is to get the team's hoops through it intact.

[Wakshaani]

I am surprised you haven't jumped into the SR4 matrix yet. Now that everything is universal and wireless you can do so much with a 90BP investment in Electronics and Cracking Skill Groups and all the Hacking Programs. Of course, once you open pandora's box, everyone will be investing in hacking skills and once the programs are cracked it's all over.

I can't even image a run without at least 5 spy drones (I prefer 10+ spies, a few dobermans, and at least one stratos-9)

The big problem is that nobody can quite figure it out. It just doesn't quite 'click' mentally and, since no one's done a decker in a decade, locally, there's no "Heritage" knowledge to draw from. This leads to the "How do you open a locked door?" question. There's been three answers, normally, none of which seem to work for us. And if we can't figure out how to open a *door*, then the rest is just beyond us.

Needless to say, I'm more than a wee bit interested in the "Matrix for Dummies" section of the Decker book. (I know, I know, 'Hackers', but, man, I'm closing in on twenty years of this game, leave me my dinosaur-like terminology! Nyeah!)