Reality intrudes.... Options

[Dog]

I just got out of a police training seminar-- (I'm not a cop, but I work with them in a few different ways.) -- where I had to watch a couple of training videos in which police officers were killed or seriously injured by gun-or-knife-happy criminals. When they didn't see the threat in time or didn't get their gun out quickly enough.

I gotta tell you guys, it was moving, scary stuff. I feel compelled to address this in my games. The screaming pleading for one's life. The desperation as a person struggles to fend off a huge, coked-up attacker. The sounds of a cop's skull being cracked. I'm not a stranger to violence, I've been in fistfights and made arrests myself, but there's no way I can describe to you guys how brutal this stuff was...

I know that it's just a game we play, and that we don't want to take it too seriously, but man, I gotta say: What I saw today is really going to affect how I regard the actions of my game's characters. Anyway, I leave it open for discussion....

[Ancient History]

Careful descriptive text can sometimes derail gamers from unnecessary violence...although the "bad guys" are still fair game.

Very few games will ever go into such sad and sordid details as drug-crazed assaults by half-starved kids on a cop buying a cup of coffee off-duty.

[Prospero]

And what if that huge, coked-up attacker was a troll? :eek:

I've always found that my newbie players were really interested in the hack-n-slash (shoot-and-burn?) [and this is a game, after all. There's nothing wrong with a little suspension of reality coupled with mindless violence, as long as it doens't get out of hand] aspects of the game but as they played more and got more into it, they tended to mellow out and kill as few people as possible. Imagery like that would always help things along, I suppose.

And Ancient History is certainly correct. But think about one of the posts in the intro to the SRComp (in the shadowcell section) - the physad who confesses to having killed someone for the price of a nuke-it burger because he was so hungry he just didn't care. So that gritty horribleness DEFINATELY exists in shadowrun and could make an interesting (if disturbing) encounter for runners who are getting a little high-and-mighty.

[BumsofTacoma]

thats the sad aspect of reality people die. Its not always qiuck. I had a girlfriend die 2 weeks after a car accident. watching a loved one slowly die is one of the most painfull things in the world. life is short, shit happens.

My uncle is an LA county sherrif, he was shot 3 times point blank with a 357.magnum and lived. I know the risks cops take, i have seen his armored vest with two dents and a hole, his blood dried on it. he hangs it on his wall above his bed to remeber.

I have respect for cops to a very high degree. Thats why it pisses me off when someone says "i hate cops" just because they got busted with pot.

I have had a lot of people iknow die. Friends relatives, and a girlfriend.
No death is quick and painless. even if that person dies quickly, or instantly the pain lasts for ever. you never forget.

this is why leaving reality with a little rpg-ing is relished action.

[Backgammon]

Actually, I gained a better respect and understanding of life partly because of SR. When I first started playing, I was the typical "yeah, killing is cool!" kinda teenager. But as I GMed and described, made up these scenarios where people got killed in sometimes awful matters and such, I started to gain a better understanding of the weight of a gun trigger. Obviously this is not just due to SR, the normal course of maturity and other things have their effects, but I do think roleplaying these people surrounded with death and pain made me stop, think, and realise the crap, the evilness, of people hurtng people, far more than anything else.

[Adarael]

[moosegod]

Well, I tend to avoid unecessary killing in SR. More because corps are less interested when you don't leave a trail of corpses.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I always try to describe violence to be as horrible as I can muster when I GM. When the players shot and killed 20 20-year-olds because they were hanging around in the wrong part of town, I made the kids scream and plead for their lives, I described all the blood spurts and disgusting sounds that I could come up with.

And when they car-bombed a museum and killed 35 civilians, I made a point of describing the headlines next morning, the pictures of the burnt and maimed corpses, the crying relatives, etc.

I think they've become a bit more careful about killing people, at least "innocent" people, since then.

[Kagetenshi]

Those of my characters who kill people a lot tend to try to kill them quickly, because no one (save psychopaths) likes to hear someone plead for their life while they die.

~J

[Dog]

Thanks for your input guys, I've also noticed that the longer a person plays this game, the less bloodthirsty their characters get.

Also interesting to note who's posting on this topic......

[Fahr]

while new to these boards I have played SR for many years, and GM'd them for a while too.

my experience is that players will think twice about killing NPCs (be they gaurds or rats) if you describe them with distinctive features. when the player can't look at them as numbers and they have a face, it makes them less likely to outright kill them.

but, somtimes that is not the case. shadowrun is a deadly dangerous and sad world. it's not a happy future... so desperate people do desperate thing, (pcs and Npcs) Add to that the prevelance for violent confrontation and the high stakes of losing (getting "fired" from a corp job can mean your death or living in the barrens) people will react extremely.

Good players can play crazed killing machines, and as long as they know that there Char. is like that, they can take the consequences. Good players can also play pacifists, and every thing in the middle. it depends on what the charachters are like. as a GM I only ever have issues with new or poor players who do not recognize that the PC is not "special" and that he/she can't "get away with it" just because he's a PC.

It's up to the GM to make the less than good players recognize what they are doing, so if they are playing a pshyco they at least recognize what it is there charachter has become. being tough on the PCs is after all the point, if it is easy, they'll lose intrest.

-pardon my rambles...

-Mike R.

[Fortune]

[6thDragon]

I know what you mean about players maturing and toning down the senseless killing in the campaigns as they've played more. However, I think my last group would be the exception to this rule. As for me I can also say I know how short life can be. I had an aquaintence assassinated by a terrorist group when I lived in Greece. Seeing his 14 year old daughter, the week after it happened so drunk she was throwing up really left a lasting impression on me.

[Kagetenshi]

That'd do it.

~J

[Elfie]

It does leave a lot open to the GM to describe the NPC's to a point where the PC's don't necessarily want to kill them. I was playing a decker once that needed to run overwatch on site, so I found an office, kicked open the door, prepared to frag the desk jockey and just use his site for a jackpoint. When I busted open the door, our GM described the NPC down to the letter, and what was on his desk included a picture of his daughter. I ended up just tying the guy up and sliding him in the corner while I used his office. Even though it was just a game, I couldn't justify killing him at that point.

It really changes your perspective when you give a face to an NPC.

[Kagetenshi]

From one of my character's backstories:

[Crimson Jack]

My gaming group doesn't "hate cops" but they certainly "hate Lonestar". Most of this stems from the fact that the police in our area are big dicks. No, this isn't because we're weed smokers. It's because the area has a lot of crime. Therefore, any time anyone gets pulled over for anything, the cops are naturally predisposed to be nasty.

I understand the need for police in society, so I don't want to sound like an anarchist or anything. We need law. But all too often, the badge police officers wear becomes a symbol of superiority and hypocrisy. Tell a cop he's a public servant and you'll get the maximum fine possible. They do not act like servants, more like megalomaniacal godlings.

It sucks that anyone has to die and plead in terror for their life. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, cop or no. But the whole reason why I game (and I can speak for my gaming group) is to get away from reality. We're all very mature adults (ages 26-32) and have lots of fun with the ROLE-playing aspect of SR, but all of the group loves to put holes and scorch marks on things. This is not to say that they don't enjoy getting into an area quietly. They do at times. At other times it's all about quick and accurate firepower. Basically, I guess I'm trying to say that I don't necessarily equate maturity with less violence in a game. It's just a personal taste thing.

[moosegod]

You a sick puppy, you realize that? Kagetenshi?

Anyways, when my group goes for destruction, they go in for a big way. Normally they work as mercs and active site demolition, so they can kill people without really caring.
It also helps that the team has a number of vendettas they have built up over game time. And these are the nasty, kill-women-and-children sorts of vendettas.

But my group can be really soft-hearted on the guys at the bottom- beat cops and such.

[Kagetenshi]

I realize it, and love every minute of it :)

~J

[Sahandrian]

[Kagetenshi]

Oh, I do that too. I'll post my current character's backstory when I finish it :)

~J

[D.Generate]

correct me if i'm wrong but the reason its called shadowrun is becasue you are supposed to run in the shadows.. ie unseen unheard no trace but maybe a roken lock and something missing or one dead body if its an assasination. My players learn quite quick that turning every run int othe "wild bunch" gets them nothing but dead.. I mean look at real life when a group off rich kids gets killed or what not all teh heat that coes down walknig into a corp and gunning down employees left and right is bound to piss off just enough people to make you life a living hell. And another point if Mr. J's just wanted everything that moves to be dead and lots of collateral damage wouldn't they drop only a few thousand total to but a bunch of idiot street gangers? If you group has a massive body count either thats the game you run or you are being way to nice to them yes it is an RPG but it also is a dark dirty semi realistic game. DOg makes a good point most players and gm's only experience with violence is what they see in movies, I have see ntapes like the one he mentions along with others like the Columbine tapes and terrorist snuf videos and i guarantee 90% of you out there would get sick watching a real human really get shot up, stabbed, and decapitated. I've seen people get hit by trains right in front of me and its not pleasant. Some of my players ahve see nthe videos too at least the ones i was able to scam into bringing home, one of my friends did get sick had to make a quick run to the john before his lunch came up and teh funny thing was is he is always the first in the group to want ot kill people and he always talks his shiznit about being tuff and able to handle anything. I got some enjoyment out of him puking. Took a couple others of my group hunting one of them couldn't even shoot the deer that he had a nice clean shot on and thats just a deer .. i wasn't even going to ask him to help me carry the body after i shot it or for help in gutting it. So this rant has basically been for all you sob's out there that think they are tuff as nails hard core next time think befoer opening your mouths becasue i could show you things that will make you lose your dinner faster than castor oil. thats is all i am finished.

[Austere Emancipa...]

If you don't want to go out of your way to acquire snuff films or hang around train stations hoping for an accident, you can always browse Rotten.Com. Plenty of burnt, maimed, eviscerated, decapitated, mutilated, mangled, bloated, zombified, mummified, rotten, and otherwise less-than-cute corpses, and sometimes even living humans of those descriptions.

It is a great inspiration for describing the effects of High Explosives while GMing. My favorites include Jenin and the various attempted suicide bits.

I sure know I can't stand the sight of people in pain or corpses in just about any condition. I like to think that it is more of a boon than a bane in GMing, since I try to represent the human response to pain and death.

[Fortune]

D.Generate: Nice rant, but you know next to nothing about most of our personal experiences.

[leemur]