I just got out of a police training seminar-- (I'm not a cop, but I work with them in a few different ways.) -- where I had to watch a couple of training videos in which police officers were killed or seriously injured by gun-or-knife-happy criminals. When they didn't see the threat in time or didn't get their gun out quickly enough.
I gotta tell you guys, it was moving, scary stuff. I feel compelled to address this in my games. The screaming pleading for one's life. The desperation as a person struggles to fend off a huge, coked-up attacker. The sounds of a cop's skull being cracked. I'm not a stranger to violence, I've been in fistfights and made arrests myself, but there's no way I can describe to you guys how brutal this stuff was...
I know that it's just a game we play, and that we don't want to take it too seriously, but man, I gotta say: What I saw today is really going to affect how I regard the actions of my game's characters. Anyway, I leave it open for discussion....
Ancient History
Dec 5 2003, 09:44 PM
Careful descriptive text can sometimes derail gamers from unnecessary violence...although the "bad guys" are still fair game.
Very few games will ever go into such sad and sordid details as drug-crazed assaults by half-starved kids on a cop buying a cup of coffee off-duty.
Prospero
Dec 5 2003, 09:53 PM
And what if that huge, coked-up attacker was a troll?
![eek.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/eek.gif)
I've always found that my newbie players were really interested in the hack-n-slash (shoot-and-burn?) [and this is a game, after all. There's nothing wrong with a little suspension of reality coupled with mindless violence, as long as it doens't get out of hand] aspects of the game but as they played more and got more into it, they tended to mellow out and kill as few people as possible. Imagery like that would always help things along, I suppose.
And Ancient History is certainly correct. But think about one of the posts in the intro to the SRComp (in the shadowcell section) - the physad who confesses to having killed someone for the price of a nuke-it burger because he was so hungry he just didn't care. So that gritty horribleness DEFINATELY exists in shadowrun and could make an interesting (if disturbing) encounter for runners who are getting a little high-and-mighty.
BumsofTacoma
Dec 5 2003, 09:53 PM
thats the sad aspect of reality people die. Its not always qiuck. I had a girlfriend die 2 weeks after a car accident. watching a loved one slowly die is one of the most painfull things in the world. life is short, shit happens.
My uncle is an LA county sherrif, he was shot 3 times point blank with a 357.magnum and lived. I know the risks cops take, i have seen his armored vest with two dents and a hole, his blood dried on it. he hangs it on his wall above his bed to remeber.
I have respect for cops to a very high degree. Thats why it pisses me off when someone says "i hate cops" just because they got busted with pot.
I have had a lot of people iknow die. Friends relatives, and a girlfriend.
No death is quick and painless. even if that person dies quickly, or instantly the pain lasts for ever. you never forget.
this is why leaving reality with a little rpg-ing is relished action.
Backgammon
Dec 5 2003, 10:09 PM
Actually, I gained a better respect and understanding of life partly because of SR. When I first started playing, I was the typical "yeah, killing is cool!" kinda teenager. But as I GMed and described, made up these scenarios where people got killed in sometimes awful matters and such, I started to gain a better understanding of the weight of a gun trigger. Obviously this is not just due to SR, the normal course of maturity and other things have their effects, but I do think roleplaying these people surrounded with death and pain made me stop, think, and realise the crap, the evilness, of people hurtng people, far more than anything else.
Adarael
Dec 5 2003, 11:32 PM
QUOTE |
Careful descriptive text can sometimes derail gamers from unnecessary violence...although the "bad guys" are still fair game. |
I got a friend of mine to back up for a second with that tactic. He'd shot a security guard with his heavy pistol, which happened to be loaded with extra explosives.
Describing the half-circle missing from the guard (which because of shock and adrenalin, he didn't really notice too much) combined with the gurgle of his lungs stopped the player dead for a second.
I'm a big fan, some days, of blowing the unholy crap out of things. Then, other days, I feel like I've failed if anyone even reaches for a weapon.
moosegod
Dec 5 2003, 11:34 PM
Well, I tend to avoid unecessary killing in SR. More because corps are less interested when you don't leave a trail of corpses.
Austere Emancipator
Dec 5 2003, 11:35 PM
I always try to describe violence to be as horrible as I can muster when I GM. When the players shot and killed 20 20-year-olds because they were hanging around in the wrong part of town, I made the kids scream and plead for their lives, I described all the blood spurts and disgusting sounds that I could come up with.
And when they car-bombed a museum and killed 35 civilians, I made a point of describing the headlines next morning, the pictures of the burnt and maimed corpses, the crying relatives, etc.
I think they've become a bit more careful about killing people, at least "innocent" people, since then.
Kagetenshi
Dec 5 2003, 11:51 PM
Those of my characters who kill people a lot tend to try to kill them quickly, because no one (save psychopaths) likes to hear someone plead for their life while they die.
~J
Dog
Dec 10 2003, 08:25 PM
Thanks for your input guys, I've also noticed that the longer a person plays this game, the less bloodthirsty their characters get.
Also interesting to note who's posting on this topic......
Fahr
Dec 10 2003, 08:47 PM
while new to these boards I have played SR for many years, and GM'd them for a while too.
my experience is that players will think twice about killing NPCs (be they gaurds or rats) if you describe them with distinctive features. when the player can't look at them as numbers and they have a face, it makes them less likely to outright kill them.
but, somtimes that is not the case. shadowrun is a deadly dangerous and sad world. it's not a happy future... so desperate people do desperate thing, (pcs and Npcs) Add to that the prevelance for violent confrontation and the high stakes of losing (getting "fired" from a corp job can mean your death or living in the barrens) people will react extremely.
Good players can play crazed killing machines, and as long as they know that there Char. is like that, they can take the consequences. Good players can also play pacifists, and every thing in the middle. it depends on what the charachters are like. as a GM I only ever have issues with new or poor players who do not recognize that the PC is not "special" and that he/she can't "get away with it" just because he's a PC.
It's up to the GM to make the less than good players recognize what they are doing, so if they are playing a pshyco they at least recognize what it is there charachter has become. being tough on the PCs is after all the point, if it is easy, they'll lose intrest.
-pardon my rambles...
-Mike R.
Fortune
Dec 10 2003, 11:41 PM
QUOTE (Dog) |
Also interesting to note who's posting on this topic...... |
In what way?
6thDragon
Dec 11 2003, 12:09 AM
I know what you mean about players maturing and toning down the senseless killing in the campaigns as they've played more. However, I think my last group would be the exception to this rule. As for me I can also say I know how short life can be. I had an aquaintence assassinated by a terrorist group when I lived in Greece. Seeing his 14 year old daughter, the week after it happened so drunk she was throwing up really left a lasting impression on me.
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 12:29 AM
That'd do it.
~J
Elfie
Dec 11 2003, 12:30 AM
It does leave a lot open to the GM to describe the NPC's to a point where the PC's don't necessarily want to kill them. I was playing a decker once that needed to run overwatch on site, so I found an office, kicked open the door, prepared to frag the desk jockey and just use his site for a jackpoint. When I busted open the door, our GM described the NPC down to the letter, and what was on his desk included a picture of his daughter. I ended up just tying the guy up and sliding him in the corner while I used his office. Even though it was just a game, I couldn't justify killing him at that point.
It really changes your perspective when you give a face to an NPC.
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 01:05 AM
From one of my character's backstories:
QUOTE |
Ellis whistled as he walked, swinging his extendable baton and thinking of the new computer game he was going to play with his little brother when he got home that night. The kid deserved better than he could give him, but with their parents dead and no other relatives, he was the best that could be done. He was lucky that he'd managed to land this cushy job as a security guard. Not even any guns, so even if something bad happened he'd probably just end up in the hospital, and company health insurance was good. It was a nice night... Sarah slipped up behind the whistling guard, placing her hand over his mouth and sliding her knife into his kidney. She waited until he stopped twitching, then let him slide to the ground. As she passed on into the night a single tear slid from his eye, running down the still-warm flesh. |
I have too much fun with backstory.
~J
Crimson Jack
Dec 11 2003, 01:07 AM
My gaming group doesn't "hate cops" but they certainly "hate Lonestar". Most of this stems from the fact that the police in our area are big dicks. No, this isn't because we're weed smokers. It's because the area has a lot of crime. Therefore, any time anyone gets pulled over for anything, the cops are naturally predisposed to be nasty.
I understand the need for police in society, so I don't want to sound like an anarchist or anything. We need law. But all too often, the badge police officers wear becomes a symbol of superiority and hypocrisy. Tell a cop he's a public servant and you'll get the maximum fine possible. They do not act like servants, more like megalomaniacal godlings.
It sucks that anyone has to die and plead in terror for their life. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, cop or no. But the whole reason why I game (and I can speak for my gaming group) is to get away from reality. We're all very mature adults (ages 26-32) and have lots of fun with the ROLE-playing aspect of SR, but all of the group loves to put holes and scorch marks on things. This is not to say that they don't enjoy getting into an area quietly. They do at times. At other times it's all about quick and accurate firepower. Basically, I guess I'm trying to say that I don't necessarily equate maturity with less violence in a game. It's just a personal taste thing.
moosegod
Dec 11 2003, 01:10 AM
You a sick puppy, you realize that? Kagetenshi?
Anyways, when my group goes for destruction, they go in for a big way. Normally they work as mercs and active site demolition, so they can kill people without really caring.
It also helps that the team has a number of vendettas they have built up over game time. And these are the nasty, kill-women-and-children sorts of vendettas.
But my group can be really soft-hearted on the guys at the bottom- beat cops and such.
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 01:13 AM
I realize it, and love every minute of it
![smile.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
~J
Sahandrian
Dec 11 2003, 01:18 AM
QUOTE (moosegod) |
You a sick puppy, you realize that? Kagetenshi? |
Dramatic, yes, but not all that sick. If our shaman's player ever joins DSF, I'll have her post her character's history. That went into killing small children and someone being burned alive at one point. That and the shaman used to be a sadistic freak herself...
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 01:30 AM
Oh, I do that too. I'll post my current character's backstory when I finish it
![smile.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
~J
D.Generate
Dec 11 2003, 01:36 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but the reason its called shadowrun is becasue you are supposed to run in the shadows.. ie unseen unheard no trace but maybe a roken lock and something missing or one dead body if its an assasination. My players learn quite quick that turning every run int othe "wild bunch" gets them nothing but dead.. I mean look at real life when a group off rich kids gets killed or what not all teh heat that coes down walknig into a corp and gunning down employees left and right is bound to piss off just enough people to make you life a living hell. And another point if Mr. J's just wanted everything that moves to be dead and lots of collateral damage wouldn't they drop only a few thousand total to but a bunch of idiot street gangers? If you group has a massive body count either thats the game you run or you are being way to nice to them yes it is an RPG but it also is a dark dirty semi realistic game. DOg makes a good point most players and gm's only experience with violence is what they see in movies, I have see ntapes like the one he mentions along with others like the Columbine tapes and terrorist snuf videos and i guarantee 90% of you out there would get sick watching a real human really get shot up, stabbed, and decapitated. I've seen people get hit by trains right in front of me and its not pleasant. Some of my players ahve see nthe videos too at least the ones i was able to scam into bringing home, one of my friends did get sick had to make a quick run to the john before his lunch came up and teh funny thing was is he is always the first in the group to want ot kill people and he always talks his shiznit about being tuff and able to handle anything. I got some enjoyment out of him puking. Took a couple others of my group hunting one of them couldn't even shoot the deer that he had a nice clean shot on and thats just a deer .. i wasn't even going to ask him to help me carry the body after i shot it or for help in gutting it. So this rant has basically been for all you sob's out there that think they are tuff as nails hard core next time think befoer opening your mouths becasue i could show you things that will make you lose your dinner faster than castor oil. thats is all i am finished.
Austere Emancipator
Dec 11 2003, 01:57 AM
If you don't want to go out of your way to acquire snuff films or hang around train stations hoping for an accident, you can always browse
Rotten.Com. Plenty of burnt, maimed, eviscerated, decapitated, mutilated, mangled, bloated, zombified, mummified, rotten, and otherwise less-than-cute corpses, and sometimes even living humans of those descriptions.
It is a great inspiration for describing the effects of High Explosives while GMing. My favorites include
Jenin and the various attempted suicide bits.
I sure know I can't stand the sight of people in pain or corpses in just about any condition. I like to think that it is more of a boon than a bane in GMing, since I try to represent the human response to pain and death.
Fortune
Dec 11 2003, 02:00 AM
D.Generate: Nice rant, but you know next to nothing about most of our personal experiences.
leemur
Dec 11 2003, 05:40 AM
QUOTE (Fortune) |
D.Generate: Nice rant, but you know next to nothing about most of our personal experiences. |
He obviously doesn't know anything about starting new paragraphs either.
Siege
Dec 11 2003, 05:55 AM
Well, I think it's fair to say that anyone who has had personal experience with violence will appreciate the implications and not engage in wanton, random violence.
Some games are further removed from reality than others -- and their players accordingly.
It's the fruit loops that want to describe in grotesque detail of torturing a secretary that turn my stomach -- they're the same closet-cases who want to role-play sexual encounters to fulfill some bizarre emotional outlet.
-Siege
Edit: I knew I was gonna have to give up RPGs when I was arguing for the rights of a manticore versus the party's intent to slaughter a creature that was simply acting to defend it's home and young
Kagetenshi
Dec 11 2003, 06:24 AM
QUOTE |
I am getting nervous because her voice is carrying some emotional baggage with it, now. "Ever since you bought me that chewing gum, on a lark, I've been in love with you."
Sure, my response might have seemed a little cryptic, "If there is no justice, then how can the ends justify the means? Take that wax, for example, (I've started to ramble on now just like on the subway, and she is looking at me with that same look of hostility, bordering on the old familiar meaningless uncommunicative scream) when the candle was lit, did it know that in the end it was going to burn down to nothing and disappear into the air? You lit the candle to get the light from it. Your end was to have my asparagus and carrot cabin lit by this light. You used the candle as a means to obtain this. Does the light justify the destruction of the candle? What is justification to a piece of wax? Its the same as the justification that you've given me about this 'durability' and our relationship." |
~J
Edit: Not me this time. Credit for that goes to Bungie Software and Marathon Infinity.
Arethusa
Dec 11 2003, 06:31 AM
Siege, to be fair, there isn't anything inherently wrong with detailed descriptions of torture or sex being roleplayed. Certainly no more than said descriptions appearing in literature. The problem is that most players who go in for that sort of thing don't do it to really roleplay or further a depth of the story or their characters. They do it because they like it, and that is sick.
Also, D.Generate, I'd like you to meet Mr Period. He lets us know when it's ok to breathe.
Dim Sum
Dec 11 2003, 06:35 AM
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Dec 11 2003, 06:31 AM) |
Also, D.Generate, I'd like you to meet Mr Period. He lets us know when it's ok to breathe. |
Damn, Arethusa, for a moment there, I though you were referring to a really MACHO form of PMS, which is what I attributed to DG's rant ....
![biggrin.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)
[edited for grammar]
Tanka
Dec 11 2003, 07:07 AM
I can honestly say that none of my characters have just killed to kill. There is one in the works that is, basically, Knives, from Trigun. Sadistic, twisted, cruel, and very, very evil.
Other than him (Who I may never play because I'm sure anybody who plays with me will want me dead), there have been none who just wantonly killed.
One instance my GM spoke about when I first started: He was GMing with a group from home. They managed to capture a guy, then started torturing him for some information. They went into every detail and every minute thing they could ever do, and my GM became physically ill. I think something like that is a big difference from having to geek the "bad guy."
Killing "just because" is something that most people I know who RP frown upon.
D.Generate
Dec 11 2003, 10:22 PM
QUOTE (leemur) |
QUOTE (Fortune) | D.Generate: Nice rant, but you know next to nothing about most of our personal experiences. |
He obviously doesn't know anything about starting new paragraphs either.
|
I'm sorry I didn't realize this was an english class.
True I don't know about most of your personal experiences but i have been around enough different gamers and had enough different groups to know that at least 60% of all gamers all full of schit. I've known ninjas professional killers guys who invented everything from rail guns to operating systems, guys who know people that made car alarms with lazers that would kill you if you tried stealing them, explosive experts so on and so on. And i'm not claiming i'm better than anyone hell the first few times i saw real life death i was a bit sick to the stomach but now i'm desensitized to seeing pretty much anything. I'm sorry if i offended anyone but its my experience that the people who get offended are the ones who are looking at the truth and are the exact people i'm talking about.
Tanka
Dec 11 2003, 10:26 PM
QUOTE (D.Generate) |
True I don't know about most of your personal experiences but i have been around enough different gamers and had enough different groups to know that at least 60% of all gamers all full of schit. I've known ninjas professional killers guys who invented everything from rail guns to operating systems, guys who know people that made car alarms with lazers that would kill you if you tried stealing them, explosive experts so on and so on. And i'm not claiming i'm better than anyone hell the first few times i saw real life death i was a bit sick to the stomach but now i'm desensitized to seeing pretty much anything. I'm sorry if i offended anyone but its my experience that the people who get offended are the ones who are looking at the truth and are the exact people i'm talking about. |
I'm not even going to go into that... It's just so full of contradictions and poorly-written statements (especially lies) that it only needs this comment.
Congratulations for making a bunch of stuff up, though.
Siege
Dec 11 2003, 10:32 PM
QUOTE (Arethusa) |
Siege, to be fair, there isn't anything inherently wrong with detailed descriptions of torture or sex being roleplayed. Certainly no more than said descriptions appearing in literature. The problem is that most players who go in for that sort of thing don't do it to really roleplay or further a depth of the story or their characters. They do it because they like it, and that is sick.
Also, D.Generate, I'd like you to meet Mr Period. He lets us know when it's ok to breathe. |
I'll agree with that -- I include details as necessary and appropriate, but I don't go for literary license in describing the effect for the sheer joy of it.
-Siege
gknoy
Dec 11 2003, 11:20 PM
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Dec 11 2003, 06:31 AM) |
Also, D.Generate, I'd like you to meet Mr Period. He lets us know when it's ok to breathe. |
I think there was a Penny-Arcade comic on this very subject . . .
D.Generate
Dec 11 2003, 11:49 PM
QUOTE (tanka) |
I'm not even going to go into that... It's just so full of contradictions and poorly-written statements (especially lies) that it only needs this comment.
Congratulations for making a bunch of stuff up, though. |
Umm hey Genius! Thats you Tanka since I apparently have to point out lots of obvious things. All those people I desribed were what other gamers have told me they were not actually people I know. Its called sarcasm I figured someone as briliant as you would be able to figure that out.
So to clear up any misconceptions:
I don't know any real ninjas just a few dumbasses who thought they were.
I don't know anyone who has killed a real human again only more dumbasses who thought they could or have
I don't know any explosives experts, guess what? Yup again only dumbasses who think they know everything about blowing shit up.
So on and so forth.
Excuse me for not putting periods in things, again if I knew that you all had the soul of my bitch of an english teacher in High School I'd try harder. But for the most part none of you mental pigmies are worth the effort it would take to write and proof-read everthing I type fast.
So in conclusion I would like to state again that picking out petty things in my posts to try and discredit me only proves my earlier statement of how those people who are most offended are the people I'm talking about. I.E. self titled Martial Arts experts, so called computer hackers, ect. ect. I have made nothing up and I don't really see any reason to defend myself to most of you, but there is at least one or two people on here that aren't complete morons. Thats is all thank you come again.
Siege
Dec 11 2003, 11:51 PM
QUOTE (D.Generate) |
But for the most part none of you mental pigmies are worth the effort it would take to write and proof-read everthing I type fast. |
For what it's worth, it's "pygmies".
-Siege
Fortune
Dec 11 2003, 11:54 PM
A shining example of how to win friends and influence people.
Tanka
Dec 11 2003, 11:56 PM
Always.
And, you know, D... Sarcasm is a hard thing to detect via text.
Kagetenshi
Dec 12 2003, 12:29 AM
I am swayed already.
~J
D.Generate
Dec 12 2003, 02:11 AM
Couldn't detect sarcasm?? Come on Tanka how many people do you know that talk to ninjas, super soilders, and proffesional arsonists? Anywho sorry about getting all pissy its just been a very bad week. Really I'm much cheerier in person...errr sometimes. No hard feeling each and everyone of you are good peeps if only for one thing and thats keeping this game alive. I'm sure most of the Shadowrun team at Wizkids apprieciates us too. Without hte mass comercialization that d20 has it takes communities like us to keep dying games alive. Anyways enough ranting and raving again I appoligize. That is all over and out.
gknoy
Dec 12 2003, 02:12 AM
QUOTE (D.Generate) |
Excuse me for not putting periods in things, again if I knew that you all had the soul of my bitch of an english teacher in High School I'd try harder. But for the most part none of you mental pigmies are worth the effort it would take to write and proof-read everthing I type fast. |
The crux of the matter is not that anyone here is a mental pygmy, but that we respect everyone else enough to write our messages clearly and readably. It's a matter not of them being able to understand it anyways, but that I respect you and everyone else enough that I make an effort not to subject anyone to prose that isn't written well.
Any of my friends can tell you that I can spew out a drekstorm of typos when I am not careful. It's an unending battle to notice, find, and fix them before my friends see them -- sure, they're smart enough that they probably know what I mean, but why should they have to figure it out?
Not taking the time to craft well-written prose shows a general disregard for others, and is often indicative of someone who either doesn't know the right way to do things, or is inconsiderate enough of their readers that they just don't care. Sadly, most of those that Don't Care are also in the uneducated camp, because most educated people recognize that it's Just Better to write well. Why? Call it enlightened self-interest. I don't want to read a pile of drek, so why would I want to write it?
=)
Apologies to any who think this was a pile of drek.
Adarael
Dec 12 2003, 02:18 AM
QUOTE |
I'm sorry I didn't realize this was an english class. |
Yes, it is. I carry grammar with me everywhere, being majoring in it and all.
Now that you know that yes, this is an englsh class, can we expect you to obey the rules of grammar?
That would make me cheer.
Dim Sum
Dec 12 2003, 03:33 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
QUOTE (D.Generate @ Dec 11 2003, 11:49 PM) | But for the most part none of you mental pigmies are worth the effort it would take to write and proof-read everthing I type fast. |
For what it's worth, it's "pygmies".
-Siege
|
Dang, that almost made me shit my pants!
Dim Sum
Dec 12 2003, 03:42 AM
Ahh, c'mon, guys, the man's apologised and we're not
that thin-skinned (I'd hope -
![smile.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif)
) so let's all chill - we've all had hard days before (or weeks / months / years / decades / centuries / millenia - delete as appropriate ... c'mon, you blood-sucking vamps - show yourselves! Bwuahahahaha!).
And, DG, dun wurree about atroshuss speling or grampa or taipos - wee awl mayk dem, too. Wy, fyve yiers ago, I cudent even spel lor-yer and nao I em wun.
nezumi
Dec 12 2003, 03:51 AM
This has definitely got to be one of the funniest threads I've seen in a while. Don't worry, D, I think the fact there were as many jibes thrown as there were and no one getting defensive shows that there are no hard feelings. However, now that I know Dim Sum is a LAWYER... Proof that roleplaying turns people evil. ; P
Dim Sum
Dec 12 2003, 03:56 AM
Heh, Nezumi, don't tell my mother.
![biggrin.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)
Truth be told, though, five years ago, I decided not to further my career as a lawyer and became a broker thereby joining the ranks of humanity!
Bwuahahahaha! *runs away from SykoBear who presently
is a lawyer!*
Tanka
Dec 12 2003, 04:00 AM
*pulls out his stake*
No, I'm not responding to Dim Sum's post about vampires.
Siege
Dec 12 2003, 04:13 AM
QUOTE (tanka) |
*pulls out his stake*
No, I'm not responding to Dim Sum's post about vampires. |
Playing with your stake, Tanka?
![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif)
Careful, those splinters can be a bitch.
-Siege
Tanka
Dec 12 2003, 04:18 AM
QUOTE (Siege) |
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 12 2003, 04:00 AM) | *pulls out his stake*
No, I'm not responding to Dim Sum's post about vampires. |
Playing with your stake, Tanka? ![grinbig.gif](http://invision.dumpshock.com/html/emoticons/grinbig.gif) Careful, those splinters can be a bitch. -Siege |
Bastard.
Req
Dec 12 2003, 05:37 PM
Well, this thread got even more off-topic than usual. Madd props to all.