Fake SINs, how powerful, really? Options

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

So according to the book, a fake SIN of any rating is pretty much impossible for you to create, since it requires access to multiple redundant databases and generating a history and blah blah. Although it kind of suggests that you could sort of do that if you (a) knew where to go and (b) could hack all those places.

Anyway, I'm not so much interested in "can the characters make a fake SIN themselves" but in "what can you do with a fake SIN" -- as it is, they seem mostly useful for doing day-to-day stuff, which makes sense game-wise. There's kind of a problem, though, in that an actual identity enables you to do things like taking out a loan. So what happens then if a clever player decides to buy a rating 6 fake SIN for 6k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and then borrows 50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ? It wouldn't really be a useful fake ID if there weren't some kind of credit history (because it should really take a couple of seconds at most to check someone's credit history in 2070), so in order to be useful it has to be pretty powerful.

Also I'm interested in peoples' thoughts on background checks. Trying to get someone inside the company or facility (either as an employee or as a contractor, even on the night janitorial staff) is something that I think should be feasible, if difficult and risky. I mean "Bob hacks the cameras while I use my maglock passkey" is cool but "Bob inserts a plumbing work order and I wear my pants too low" or "Bob hacks HR and I pose as a new intern" are also cool. And highly illegal, of course, which is part of why it's cool.

But what this requires is some idea of how strong SIN verification is. For things like riding the bus or being downtown, I wouldn't want to be rolling all the time, especially as you only need to screw up the roll *once* and your Rating 6 False SIN is defeated by frickin Carl's Jr. But how strong and how expensive are the SIN verification systems your ID has to defeat?

There's some neat pre-SR4 stuff at http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/credsticks.html
but is this sort of thing covered in any of the new books?

[StormWatcher]

It would be nice if there was expanding rules on fake sins and fake licenses-
especially since if one has a fake license defeated it destroys the fake sin as well
(if my memory is correct)
Personally, i only roll for fake sin checks when the Star, CorpSec,
or a similar group has reason to suspect and or check on the character's ID.
also, i generally apply a 1-6 rating on scanning devices in most situations.
Obviously dependent upon who is scanning.
I think a burger joint would prolly have a 1-2

[jago668]

Well on the taking out a loan. It would depend on how much the character wanted. Getting a 5k loan no big deal for someone with a rating 6 fake SIN. However a 50k loan is going to get a bit more in depth. You can rest assured as the amount of the loan increases so would the chances of your fake SIN being identified as such. Plus they will probably have the biometric data of the character. So not like you can go in one week with a rating 6, get 50k. Then next week walk in with a different rating 6 and get another 50k.

Also keep in mind that past a certain amount you can no longer get a signature loan and will need to put up collateral for the loan. Plus what happens if the organization giving the loan decides to call up the characters job that is listed with his fake SIN?

[KCKitsune]

Also keep in mind that past a certain amount you can no longer get a signature loan and will need to put up collateral for the loan. Plus what happens if the organization giving the loan decides to call up the characters job that is listed with his fake SIN?

Your hacker buddy has hacked the phone system and when they call they talk to your buddy and verify that everything is cool.

[nathanross]

Biometric data is the number one concern I have with Fake SINs. You can fake face, retina, fingerprint, and voice, but cellular cannot be mimicked (as far as I know). That means that you can impersonate someone else up to the point that they require DNA, and then you're boned. If you cannot easily change your biometrics, when you swap SINs, you must also get someone to delete the old account.

A whole pain in the ass if you ask me. SINLESS FOREVER! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

SINs are entirely made of handwavium in the shadowrun system. As they are comprised only of arbitary GM fiat with little or no logical framework in support, just do whatever you feel like - or whatever adds to the story the best.

[Screamin Demon]

Um... I would say that in order to obtain a huge loan one would have to have something of value owned by the SIN of the same name. Unless you can fake an upper management job in a corp or something. They are not going to give a loan to some average guy who cannot prove he owns anything of comparable value. Like a house or condo or something to that effect. And while you could fake that kind of thing... Loan businesses stay alive for a reason. You may just find that reason out first hand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Biometric data is the number one concern I have with Fake SINs. You can fake face, retina, fingerprint, and voice, but cellular cannot be mimicked (as far as I know). That means that you can impersonate someone else up to the point that they require DNA, and then you're boned. If you cannot easily change your biometrics, when you swap SINs, you must also get someone to delete the old account.

A whole pain in the ass if you ask me. SINLESS FOREVER! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Well, cellular can't be mimicked as in "replace all my cells with that other guy's", but a cellular scanner doesn't scan all of your cells, just a few. And you've cleverly rigged a false fingertip that keeps the cultured cells alive for up to six hours ...

I dunno. Maybe your new SIN says you're a clone of the old guy?

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

Your hacker buddy has hacked the phone system and when they call they talk to your buddy and verify that everything is cool.

Now that sort of thing is supposed to be part of the fake SIN; part of the shadowy network of ID falsifiers is verification of backgrounds. Probably mostly Agents/automated.

[BlueMax]

I think some folks are confusing SIN with Social Security Number.
If you wanted a loan from Corp YYY, you would likely already be a citizen or well known to corp YYY. Each corp manages their own database and has their own internal equivalent to a SIN.

The generic number is for mostly criminal reasons. Moving violations to murder, on public ground.

[b1ffov3rfl0w]

The description in SR4 says they use SIN as a generic term for an identity, which is to say, everyone's internal equivalent to a SIN; that sort of information is shared among different entities, too. I think you're thinking of a Criminal SIN.

[BlueMax]

The description in SR4 says they use SIN as a generic term for an identity, which is to say, everyone's internal equivalent to a SIN; that sort of information is shared among different entities, too. I think you're thinking of a Criminal SIN.

You are right and I was.

[deek]

A couple posts mention not being able to validate a SIN when you get down to a DNA level. I guess I have never thought that a fake SIN was trying to mimic another person. I suppose they could, but generally, when my players are getting fake SINs, they are creating a whole new identity, using their own biometrics, not trying to mimic someone else's.

Now, this could get hairy if someone checks the multiple SINs and notices that each of them all match in most of the biometric data, but that is all covered in a sea of other data. I mean, if no one has a reason to cross-reference these SINs, then I doubt a match will be found. Plus, with a lot of lower level SINs, the check isn't doing much besides checking bank information...

[Fleming]

Um... I would say that in order to obtain a huge loan one would have to have something of value owned by the SIN of the same name. Unless you can fake an upper management job in a corp or something. They are not going to give a loan to some average guy who cannot prove he owns anything of comparable value.

Yeah, well, you don't really need to take out a huge loan. 15-20K get you a long way in SR4, and wouldn't be an unreasonable loan for Joe Public. Whether for a new car, or remodeling your apartment, or whatever. I've dropped enough credit offers in the trash to know that I could get 10K Euros with nothing more than my ID and my last three salary statements.

I think it would probably be possible, but not really sensible from play POV. Here's why:

1. If you don't pay on time, there'll be more scrutiny, and the fake SIN will almost certainly be discovered. So now the SIN is ruined, and they've got your prints, picture and who-knows-what else on file down at LS.
2. Yes, you could probably buy SINs for 6K, then use them to get 20K, or maybe even 50K or so if you've got a Hacker backing you up. Then repeat for the next SIN. Might be easy money, but weren't we meeting here for a game of SR?
3. Where's the fun in it?
4. If you really had a player do this regularly, maybe he'll find that he ripped off the wrong people. That last bank he hit could be a MCT subsidiary, or the Vory could have an interest, or...

More interesting to me: if you get a fake SIN, what's in it? Fingerprints? Retinal Scan? DNA? Picture? Voice sample? And once such a fake SIN is discovered, won't that result in an instand Criminal SIN containing the same data?

[BlueMax]

Yeah, well, you don't really need to take out a huge loan. 15-20K get you a long way in SR4, and wouldn't be an unreasonable loan for Joe Public. Whether for a new car, or remodeling your apartment, or whatever. I've dropped enough credit offers in the trash to know that I could get 10K Euros with nothing more than my ID and my last three salary statements.

What I don't understand, in terms of shadowrun, is who is offering the loan and against what collateral?
Odds are a corporate wage slave owns next to nothing.
Housing :: provided with the job
Car :: Leased from the corp(if not provided)
Future Wages :: These occur inside the corporation. They could move to protect the employee against the creditor. I don't see them being a viable form of collateral.

Lets assume you have a kicking stereo system(20k) and you put it up for collateral. Who can enter your corporation owned housing to collect? I mean besides the corporation and its security forces.

What I thought would happen in Shadowrun was that you would seek loans from your parent corporation. In that assumption, they would likely check with your boss.
"Is Jim loyal?"
"Can we leverage this loan for more work from Jim?"
"Will Jim earn a loan that will cover out 99% interest or will he continually fall behind on the debt?" (hint:they like option #2 at company towns)
"Does Jim engage in deviant behaviour?"

For the very small slice of society who do own things outside the corporate lock, I would assume they have all of their items flagged against use in loans. Much like people do now to protect against Identity Theft and other fraud.

But I agree about it not being fun. When we first started playing Shadowrun, many of my players noted that petty crime would likely be the most efficient way to earn money and "keep it low". Then the oldest and wisest said "Where is the fun in that?"

[Fleming]

Well, for one thing not everybody is part of a corp, that is, a mega. There are probably a lot of normal Joes out there even in 2070 who work for smaller corporations without exterritoriality. They are subject to all local laws, including those about paying back a loan. Of course, Ares employees/citizens would take loans from Ares banks if they need them, and engaging an outside bank would probably be frowned upon, and thus very rarely happen.

But that still leaves all the normal people who'd need a loan. Or think they do. And if your work history looks good to the bank, that might be all the collateral they require for a minor loan.

On the other hand, why bother with a loan at all? How about everyday credit card fraud? If your SIN is good, shouldn't you be able to get a few credit cards, max 'em, and then disappear? Think about the damage you could do today simply with a fake ID and a bunch of credit cards. And really: what's the background check on those?

[BlueMax]

On the other hand, why bother with a loan at all? How about everyday credit card fraud? If your SIN is good, shouldn't you be able to get a few credit cards, max 'em, and then disappear? Think about the damage you could do today simply with a fake ID and a bunch of credit cards. And really: what's the background check on those?

I agree its an easier form of crime if the money is there. I am no Economics guru and do not understand if and how the money would be available in 2070.

To my players reading this thread: No, uhuh, no credit fraud for you.

[ArkonC]

Currently it is hellishly easy to get free money in the US...
All you have to do is live elsewhere and not be a citizen...
I lived there for 2 years and had exactly 17 credit cards...
With all the lines of credit they gave me I could have gotten over 50K when I left and there's nothing they can do about it since I'm back in europe...
Of course, if I ever went back there...

[Drogos]

Credit, as is explained in the BBB, is tied into Lifestyle. If you have a purchased lifestyle, feel free to go wild with credit (in that it will pay for your lifestyle for sometime while you spend the other (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on toys).

[Heath Robinson]

Credit fraud is going to be significantly punished by corps, including publishing details of fraudsters for others in the finance industry (publishing this information brings comensurate protection and is therefore pretty likely to be in place in 2070) which is likely to flag you up on more indepth SIN checks. I'd add it to the list of things that gain you notoriety, to be honest. That also explains why shadowrunners wouldn't try it; it adds to the probability of being tracked down.

[ArkonC]

Credit fraud is going to be significantly punished by corps, including publishing details of fraudsters for others in the finance industry (publishing this information brings comensurate protection and is therefore pretty likely to be in place in 2070) which is likely to flag you up on more indepth SIN checks. I'd add it to the list of things that gain you notoriety, to be honest. That also explains why shadowrunners wouldn't try it; it adds to the probability of being tracked down.

Well, the thing is, it would flag the identity linked to the fake SIN, which isn't linked to you...

[Drogos]

But it would flag the Biometrics linked to the Identity, which is all the Corps really need anyways (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ArkonC]

As mentioned above, biometrics can be faked...
None of my shadowrunners have ever had fake SINs with their real biometrics attached to them...
As that would defeat the point...

[Heath Robinson]

Well, the thing is, it would flag the identity linked to the fake SIN, which isn't linked to you...

Wageslaves talk, images of face and fingerprints spread around and suddenly the entire finance market doesn't want to talk to you about credit anymore and is all the more likely to alert people that want to have a little chat with you about your borrowing habits, and maybe about some other criminal activities that you've commited alongside.

You SIN may change, but unless you have a way of changing everything about you that can be communicated you can still be identified as their fraudster; ID fraud is something else that financial institutions become familiar with because of its role in enabling credit fraud and statistical relationship algorithms will form the basis of SIN verification. They are going to adjust your credit rating based on things that point statistically to likely fraud even if it can't be shown to be what we could call valid grounds for suspicion, and if too many suspicious things pop up you will end up with no credit whatsoever. Nobody will call them on it because the precedent is going to be set by the megacorps first and foremost.

[BlueMax]

Currently it is hellishly easy to get free money in the US...
All you have to do is live elsewhere and not be a citizen...
I lived there for 2 years and had exactly 17 credit cards...
With all the lines of credit they gave me I could have gotten over 50K when I left and there's nothing they can do about it since I'm back in europe...
Of course, if I ever went back there...

At current. The world of shadowrun goes through some huge changes. Will there be that much liquidity in the market? Who provides the money for the lenders?

I don't think the world of Shadowrun has this level of government and cooperation. But I also don't think it has the level of financial liquidity we see today.