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b1ffov3rfl0w
So according to the book, a fake SIN of any rating is pretty much impossible for you to create, since it requires access to multiple redundant databases and generating a history and blah blah. Although it kind of suggests that you could sort of do that if you (a) knew where to go and (b) could hack all those places.

Anyway, I'm not so much interested in "can the characters make a fake SIN themselves" but in "what can you do with a fake SIN" -- as it is, they seem mostly useful for doing day-to-day stuff, which makes sense game-wise. There's kind of a problem, though, in that an actual identity enables you to do things like taking out a loan. So what happens then if a clever player decides to buy a rating 6 fake SIN for 6k nuyen.gif and then borrows 50k nuyen.gif ? It wouldn't really be a useful fake ID if there weren't some kind of credit history (because it should really take a couple of seconds at most to check someone's credit history in 2070), so in order to be useful it has to be pretty powerful.

Also I'm interested in peoples' thoughts on background checks. Trying to get someone inside the company or facility (either as an employee or as a contractor, even on the night janitorial staff) is something that I think should be feasible, if difficult and risky. I mean "Bob hacks the cameras while I use my maglock passkey" is cool but "Bob inserts a plumbing work order and I wear my pants too low" or "Bob hacks HR and I pose as a new intern" are also cool. And highly illegal, of course, which is part of why it's cool.

But what this requires is some idea of how strong SIN verification is. For things like riding the bus or being downtown, I wouldn't want to be rolling all the time, especially as you only need to screw up the roll *once* and your Rating 6 False SIN is defeated by frickin Carl's Jr. But how strong and how expensive are the SIN verification systems your ID has to defeat?

There's some neat pre-SR4 stuff at http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/credsticks.html
but is this sort of thing covered in any of the new books?
StormWatcher
It would be nice if there was expanding rules on fake sins and fake licenses-
especially since if one has a fake license defeated it destroys the fake sin as well
(if my memory is correct)
Personally, i only roll for fake sin checks when the Star, CorpSec,
or a similar group has reason to suspect and or check on the character's ID.
also, i generally apply a 1-6 rating on scanning devices in most situations.
Obviously dependent upon who is scanning.
I think a burger joint would prolly have a 1-2
jago668
Well on the taking out a loan. It would depend on how much the character wanted. Getting a 5k loan no big deal for someone with a rating 6 fake SIN. However a 50k loan is going to get a bit more in depth. You can rest assured as the amount of the loan increases so would the chances of your fake SIN being identified as such. Plus they will probably have the biometric data of the character. So not like you can go in one week with a rating 6, get 50k. Then next week walk in with a different rating 6 and get another 50k.

Also keep in mind that past a certain amount you can no longer get a signature loan and will need to put up collateral for the loan. Plus what happens if the organization giving the loan decides to call up the characters job that is listed with his fake SIN?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (jago668 @ Mar 25 2008, 09:35 PM) *
Also keep in mind that past a certain amount you can no longer get a signature loan and will need to put up collateral for the loan. Plus what happens if the organization giving the loan decides to call up the characters job that is listed with his fake SIN?


Your hacker buddy has hacked the phone system and when they call they talk to your buddy and verify that everything is cool.
nathanross
Biometric data is the number one concern I have with Fake SINs. You can fake face, retina, fingerprint, and voice, but cellular cannot be mimicked (as far as I know). That means that you can impersonate someone else up to the point that they require DNA, and then you're boned. If you cannot easily change your biometrics, when you swap SINs, you must also get someone to delete the old account.

A whole pain in the ass if you ask me. SINLESS FOREVER! grinbig.gif
Cthulhudreams
SINs are entirely made of handwavium in the shadowrun system. As they are comprised only of arbitary GM fiat with little or no logical framework in support, just do whatever you feel like - or whatever adds to the story the best.

Screamin Demon
Um... I would say that in order to obtain a huge loan one would have to have something of value owned by the SIN of the same name. Unless you can fake an upper management job in a corp or something. They are not going to give a loan to some average guy who cannot prove he owns anything of comparable value. Like a house or condo or something to that effect. And while you could fake that kind of thing... Loan businesses stay alive for a reason. You may just find that reason out first hand. ork.gif
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 26 2008, 01:03 AM) *
Biometric data is the number one concern I have with Fake SINs. You can fake face, retina, fingerprint, and voice, but cellular cannot be mimicked (as far as I know). That means that you can impersonate someone else up to the point that they require DNA, and then you're boned. If you cannot easily change your biometrics, when you swap SINs, you must also get someone to delete the old account.

A whole pain in the ass if you ask me. SINLESS FOREVER! grinbig.gif


Well, cellular can't be mimicked as in "replace all my cells with that other guy's", but a cellular scanner doesn't scan all of your cells, just a few. And you've cleverly rigged a false fingertip that keeps the cultured cells alive for up to six hours ...

I dunno. Maybe your new SIN says you're a clone of the old guy?
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Mar 25 2008, 11:19 PM) *
Your hacker buddy has hacked the phone system and when they call they talk to your buddy and verify that everything is cool.


Now that sort of thing is supposed to be part of the fake SIN; part of the shadowy network of ID falsifiers is verification of backgrounds. Probably mostly Agents/automated.
BlueMax
I think some folks are confusing SIN with Social Security Number.
If you wanted a loan from Corp YYY, you would likely already be a citizen or well known to corp YYY. Each corp manages their own database and has their own internal equivalent to a SIN.

The generic number is for mostly criminal reasons. Moving violations to murder, on public ground.
b1ffov3rfl0w
The description in SR4 says they use SIN as a generic term for an identity, which is to say, everyone's internal equivalent to a SIN; that sort of information is shared among different entities, too. I think you're thinking of a Criminal SIN.
BlueMax
QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 25 2008, 11:58 PM) *
The description in SR4 says they use SIN as a generic term for an identity, which is to say, everyone's internal equivalent to a SIN; that sort of information is shared among different entities, too. I think you're thinking of a Criminal SIN.

You are right and I was.

deek
A couple posts mention not being able to validate a SIN when you get down to a DNA level. I guess I have never thought that a fake SIN was trying to mimic another person. I suppose they could, but generally, when my players are getting fake SINs, they are creating a whole new identity, using their own biometrics, not trying to mimic someone else's.

Now, this could get hairy if someone checks the multiple SINs and notices that each of them all match in most of the biometric data, but that is all covered in a sea of other data. I mean, if no one has a reason to cross-reference these SINs, then I doubt a match will be found. Plus, with a lot of lower level SINs, the check isn't doing much besides checking bank information...
Fleming
QUOTE (Screamin Demon @ Mar 26 2008, 06:12 AM) *
Um... I would say that in order to obtain a huge loan one would have to have something of value owned by the SIN of the same name. Unless you can fake an upper management job in a corp or something. They are not going to give a loan to some average guy who cannot prove he owns anything of comparable value.


Yeah, well, you don't really need to take out a huge loan. 15-20K get you a long way in SR4, and wouldn't be an unreasonable loan for Joe Public. Whether for a new car, or remodeling your apartment, or whatever. I've dropped enough credit offers in the trash to know that I could get 10K Euros with nothing more than my ID and my last three salary statements.

I think it would probably be possible, but not really sensible from play POV. Here's why:

1. If you don't pay on time, there'll be more scrutiny, and the fake SIN will almost certainly be discovered. So now the SIN is ruined, and they've got your prints, picture and who-knows-what else on file down at LS.
2. Yes, you could probably buy SINs for 6K, then use them to get 20K, or maybe even 50K or so if you've got a Hacker backing you up. Then repeat for the next SIN. Might be easy money, but weren't we meeting here for a game of SR?
3. Where's the fun in it?
4. If you really had a player do this regularly, maybe he'll find that he ripped off the wrong people. That last bank he hit could be a MCT subsidiary, or the Vory could have an interest, or...

More interesting to me: if you get a fake SIN, what's in it? Fingerprints? Retinal Scan? DNA? Picture? Voice sample? And once such a fake SIN is discovered, won't that result in an instand Criminal SIN containing the same data?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Fleming @ Mar 26 2008, 05:38 AM) *
Yeah, well, you don't really need to take out a huge loan. 15-20K get you a long way in SR4, and wouldn't be an unreasonable loan for Joe Public. Whether for a new car, or remodeling your apartment, or whatever. I've dropped enough credit offers in the trash to know that I could get 10K Euros with nothing more than my ID and my last three salary statements.


What I don't understand, in terms of shadowrun, is who is offering the loan and against what collateral?
Odds are a corporate wage slave owns next to nothing.
Housing :: provided with the job
Car :: Leased from the corp(if not provided)
Future Wages :: These occur inside the corporation. They could move to protect the employee against the creditor. I don't see them being a viable form of collateral.

Lets assume you have a kicking stereo system(20k) and you put it up for collateral. Who can enter your corporation owned housing to collect? I mean besides the corporation and its security forces.

What I thought would happen in Shadowrun was that you would seek loans from your parent corporation. In that assumption, they would likely check with your boss.
"Is Jim loyal?"
"Can we leverage this loan for more work from Jim?"
"Will Jim earn a loan that will cover out 99% interest or will he continually fall behind on the debt?" (hint:they like option #2 at company towns)
"Does Jim engage in deviant behaviour?"

For the very small slice of society who do own things outside the corporate lock, I would assume they have all of their items flagged against use in loans. Much like people do now to protect against Identity Theft and other fraud.

But I agree about it not being fun. When we first started playing Shadowrun, many of my players noted that petty crime would likely be the most efficient way to earn money and "keep it low". Then the oldest and wisest said "Where is the fun in that?"
Fleming
Well, for one thing not everybody is part of a corp, that is, a mega. There are probably a lot of normal Joes out there even in 2070 who work for smaller corporations without exterritoriality. They are subject to all local laws, including those about paying back a loan. Of course, Ares employees/citizens would take loans from Ares banks if they need them, and engaging an outside bank would probably be frowned upon, and thus very rarely happen.

But that still leaves all the normal people who'd need a loan. Or think they do. And if your work history looks good to the bank, that might be all the collateral they require for a minor loan.

On the other hand, why bother with a loan at all? How about everyday credit card fraud? If your SIN is good, shouldn't you be able to get a few credit cards, max 'em, and then disappear? Think about the damage you could do today simply with a fake ID and a bunch of credit cards. And really: what's the background check on those?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Fleming @ Mar 26 2008, 06:54 AM) *
On the other hand, why bother with a loan at all? How about everyday credit card fraud? If your SIN is good, shouldn't you be able to get a few credit cards, max 'em, and then disappear? Think about the damage you could do today simply with a fake ID and a bunch of credit cards. And really: what's the background check on those?

I agree its an easier form of crime if the money is there. I am no Economics guru and do not understand if and how the money would be available in 2070.

To my players reading this thread: No, uhuh, no credit fraud for you.
ArkonC
Currently it is hellishly easy to get free money in the US...
All you have to do is live elsewhere and not be a citizen...
I lived there for 2 years and had exactly 17 credit cards...
With all the lines of credit they gave me I could have gotten over 50K when I left and there's nothing they can do about it since I'm back in europe...
Of course, if I ever went back there...
Drogos
Credit, as is explained in the BBB, is tied into Lifestyle. If you have a purchased lifestyle, feel free to go wild with credit (in that it will pay for your lifestyle for sometime while you spend the other nuyen.gif on toys).
Heath Robinson
Credit fraud is going to be significantly punished by corps, including publishing details of fraudsters for others in the finance industry (publishing this information brings comensurate protection and is therefore pretty likely to be in place in 2070) which is likely to flag you up on more indepth SIN checks. I'd add it to the list of things that gain you notoriety, to be honest. That also explains why shadowrunners wouldn't try it; it adds to the probability of being tracked down.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Mar 26 2008, 04:14 PM) *
Credit fraud is going to be significantly punished by corps, including publishing details of fraudsters for others in the finance industry (publishing this information brings comensurate protection and is therefore pretty likely to be in place in 2070) which is likely to flag you up on more indepth SIN checks. I'd add it to the list of things that gain you notoriety, to be honest. That also explains why shadowrunners wouldn't try it; it adds to the probability of being tracked down.

Well, the thing is, it would flag the identity linked to the fake SIN, which isn't linked to you...
Drogos
But it would flag the Biometrics linked to the Identity, which is all the Corps really need anyways biggrin.gif
ArkonC
As mentioned above, biometrics can be faked...
None of my shadowrunners have ever had fake SINs with their real biometrics attached to them...
As that would defeat the point...
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 26 2008, 03:18 PM) *
Well, the thing is, it would flag the identity linked to the fake SIN, which isn't linked to you...

Wageslaves talk, images of face and fingerprints spread around and suddenly the entire finance market doesn't want to talk to you about credit anymore and is all the more likely to alert people that want to have a little chat with you about your borrowing habits, and maybe about some other criminal activities that you've commited alongside.

You SIN may change, but unless you have a way of changing everything about you that can be communicated you can still be identified as their fraudster; ID fraud is something else that financial institutions become familiar with because of its role in enabling credit fraud and statistical relationship algorithms will form the basis of SIN verification. They are going to adjust your credit rating based on things that point statistically to likely fraud even if it can't be shown to be what we could call valid grounds for suspicion, and if too many suspicious things pop up you will end up with no credit whatsoever. Nobody will call them on it because the precedent is going to be set by the megacorps first and foremost.
BlueMax
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 26 2008, 07:08 AM) *
Currently it is hellishly easy to get free money in the US...
All you have to do is live elsewhere and not be a citizen...
I lived there for 2 years and had exactly 17 credit cards...
With all the lines of credit they gave me I could have gotten over 50K when I left and there's nothing they can do about it since I'm back in europe...
Of course, if I ever went back there...

At current. The world of shadowrun goes through some huge changes. Will there be that much liquidity in the market? Who provides the money for the lenders?

I don't think the world of Shadowrun has this level of government and cooperation. But I also don't think it has the level of financial liquidity we see today.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Mar 26 2008, 04:30 PM) *
Wageslaves talk, images of face and fingerprints spread around and suddenly the entire finance market doesn't want to talk to you about credit anymore and is all the more likely to alert people that want to have a little chat with you about your borrowing habits, and maybe about some other criminal activities that you've commited alongside.

You SIN may change, but unless you have a way of changing everything that can be communicated you can still be identified as their fraudster; ID fraud is something else that financial institutions become familiar with because of its role in enabling credit fraud and probabilistic matching algorithms will form the basis of SIN verification.

p. 330: Latex Face Mask and Nanopaste Disguise...
Now, you may call me paranoid, but linking any fake data to real biometrics is suicidal for shadowrunners, who go through fake sins like there's no tomorrow...
Seems to me that if you're going to try your hand at fraud, you'd take the same precautions...
BlueMax
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 26 2008, 07:45 AM) *
p. 330: Latex Face Mask and Nanopaste Disguise...
Now, you may call me paranoid, but linking any fake data to real biometrics is suicidal for shadowrunners, who go through fake sins like there's no tomorrow...
Seems to me that if you're going to try your hand at fraud, you'd take the same precautions...

Nope, not paranoid. Smart.
Whipstitch
Uh, wait, why are we acting as if a rating 6 Fake SIN is foolproof or as if it would somehow entitle you to getting more assets? The more assets the fake identity is supposed to have the harder it would be for the SIN to stand up to real scrutiny as you add on more and more points of failure and things that can be verified, which is rather self defeating, wouldn't you say?
ArkonC
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Mar 26 2008, 04:48 PM) *
Nope, not paranoid. Smart.

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean there not after you... wink.gif
ArkonC
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Mar 26 2008, 04:49 PM) *
Uh, wait, why are we acting as if a rating 6 Fake SIN is foolproof or as if it would somehow entitle you to getting more assets? The more assets the fake identity is supposed to have the harder it would be for the SIN to stand up to real scrutiny as you add on more and more points of failure and things that can be verified, which is rather self defeating, wouldn't you say?

On the other hand, it could make it easier to ignore inconsistencies...
If you already have a house, a car and loans on a washer and dryer linked to a fake SIN, it would seam more real than a fake one with no ties to anything...
I could see this go either way really...
Food for thought...
Drogos
Hmm...I fail to see how you can simultaneously spoof all the various ways to collect Biometric Data.

Bank Loan Officer: "Okay, we'll need a mouth swab and a hair follical Mr. Sykes to confirm your identity. Wouldn't want some bozo hacker messing up your credit rating. What's this...that's odd. They don't match what you have on file. Perhaps it was a computer malfunction. I'll just make a quick CommCall and get this straightened out for you. Can I get you a cup of coffee while it is worked out?"
Whipstitch
I guess the way I rationalize it is that no SIN really stands up to the most intense scrutiny, although a rating 6 SIN may hold up long enough to get you through temporarily before an inconsistency is found provided you roll enough hits. Most of the time with Fake IDs I figure that people are more interested in taking your money and covering their asses, so as long as you're not causing a scene and pay for things via credstick nobody really bothers to look too hard and thus most checks are cursory run throughs that do nothing fancier than check that some goofy 2070 digital watermark looks OK. Much like an unscrupulous bartender, the guy behind the counter at Weapons World wants to feel secure that they can blame things on your chicanery if it turns out they shouldn't have been selling you ammunition (in the corporate world of Shadowrun, I imagine laws are a lot more forgiving of the poor, naive salesperson "who was only trying to do right by the customer"). This of course goes out the window though when dealing with things like creditors or private security in places like Bellevue. In the former there's practically no way you're getting your nuyen and spending it on things before the system detects that you're not who you say you are via crossreferencing all sorts of claimed data, and since they're giving YOU money instead of vice versa, there's no way the deal is going through. In the latter case, I just handwave it through that your SIN can hold up to deep background checks for however long it takes to get your job done provided you get enough hits.
deek
Interesting discussion...mainly because I always have runners use their real biometric data on their fake SINs. Granted, a Rating 1 SIN may have nothing but a physical description and bank funds (if that), but its not fake data. The fake data is what is going into all those database creating a fictitious name that makes it look like the person exists.

So, a Rating 6 SIN, would normally have a lot more biometric data captured and placed in many more databases. Now the runners would be wise not to use such a SIN frequently. For their everyday purchases, it would be wise to use a low rating SIN and go through shadow markets. A Rating 1 SIN isn't going to be all that useful for high security access points...plus, it wouldn't even have sufficient information to do hold up to a deep background check, that's what the higher ratings are for.

I just curious to how some of you are having players run with SINs that don't match their character...that doesn't make all that much sense to me unless they are also using disguises and/or changing their biometric data along with the SIN.
Nightwalker450
Usually I figure an ID is one that was either created, or stolen off someone. The picture is the only thing that has been modified, but no picture between SIN's matches enough to be easily traced between. Bio-Metric data never matches, and based on the rating the other items of interest might be close to what you actually are.

The reason is these systems will locate these redundancies and SIN's will cancel each other out fairly rapidly. The idea of a SIN is to keep you untrackable, but if every SIN is running the same information, they can put together a profile of you just by cross referencing all of the Biometric data. If one of your sins gets scanned, and they go to look up the Biometrics, and it pulls up 8 SIN's, you have just been completely compromised.

Pictures probably shouldn't be of you, but since I consider that the easiest way to verify the SIN I figure part of the purchase of a fake is them inserting the proper picture for the SIN, so you don't get caught by the most rudimentary check. Everything else, I recommend having in a database so if you're ever questions about what company you worked for in 2063, you know the proper answer in relation to that SIN.

Last run, the group all got rating 2 Fake SIN's after the run. Unfortunately the Johnson had thought everyone in the group was human, and the dwarf and elf really don't know what to do with theirs. biggrin.gif
deek
Well, the "just by cross-referencing the data", at least in my games, isn't a push of a button. There are a myriad of different databases, seas of data being stored and much of the data is overwritten after a certain time.

And if at any point your biometrics are compromised, I'd say its time to change those, too...but, different tables, different fluff.
Cthulhudreams
See, the thing with saying that SIN's don't fake out biometrics sucessfully, and also that you cannot discard SINs is that 'crossing a international border' is something a SIN lets you do cannocially, and we have biometric checks at the border today!

So logically you can cross a border with a fake SIn that includes biometrics, and then discard it afterwards. i am not entirely sure how but it says you ca do it.
Seriphen
Long time lurker, first time poster.

I always took it to be that when you dumped the SIN you were having everything deleted, the biometrics included. So if someone were to run your other SIN or a new one the old one wouldn't come up at all.
Cthulhudreams
playing devil's advocate here for a moment:

When that guy registers a second fake SIN, and someone runs a DNA sample from a crime committed with the first fake SIN, why doesn't the second fake SIN show up?
BlueMax
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Mar 26 2008, 02:34 PM) *
playing devil's advocate here for a moment:

When that guy registers a second fake SIN, and someone runs a DNA sample from a crime committed with the first fake SIN, why doesn't the second fake SIN show up?

I'll play too
Crime against who? and in what jurisdiction?
Do you trust their database?
Is your SIN database secure?
Cthulhudreams
Well see, this is the thing - if Ares cannot check biometrics against SINs issued and held by Horizon, for any of those reasons, whats the point in the general case?

For SINs to work, that actually has to be true for SIN one, but in some way untrue for SIN two.
Seriphen
I see what you mean. If you are holding to SINs at the same time and you invalidate one you do the same to the other, if they both have your biometrics.

I'll have to think about that one.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Mar 26 2008, 01:54 PM) *
Well see, this is the thing - if Ares cannot check biometrics against SINs issued and held by Horizon, for any of those reasons, whats the point in the general case?

For SINs to work, that actually has to be true for SIN one, but in some way untrue for SIN two.


I think the general case is Criminal SIN. However, I don't think corps are required to publish every detail.
Also, no database is secure in 2070. I don't think just a problem with a SIN is going to warrant a huge response by Lone Star. A quick fast talk roll later, you are on your way. Unless you have your Panther with you.

Cthulhudreams
@Seriphen: Yeah, thats my problem

@Bluemax: Maybe I'm missing something. How do you see it for, say, this situation

I have a fake SIN. I cross the border into the NAN. I commit several murders in the NAN for which the cops get DNA samples (In how I think shadowrun normally works they'd run the samples, get the first fake SIN, and then issue an arrest warrant), I go to leave the NAN working at a border crossing with a second fake SIN.

Why don't I get arrested at the border crossing when the biometric test at the border also hits the first SIN?
kzt
Canonically, in SR4, there is a worldwide central registry of SINs that is also canonically unhackable, on Zurich Orbital. "The GSINR (the Global SIN Registry" and "National and corporate SIN registries are required to share their data with the GSINR"

How this all makes sense I do not know.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Mar 26 2008, 02:28 PM) *
@Bluemax: Maybe I'm missing something. How do you see it for, say, this situation

I have a fake SIN. I cross the border into the NAN. I commit several murders in the NAN for which the cops get DNA samples (In how I think shadowrun normally works they'd run the samples, get the first fake SIN, and then issue an arrest warrant), I go to leave the NAN working at a border crossing with a second fake SIN.

Why don't I get arrested at the border crossing when the biometric test at the border also hits the first SIN?

This is just how I would approach the situation, I am likely not right.

First, did the NAN care? I am assuming you hit people they cared about , so yes.
Did they care a great deal? Enough to DNA scan everyone crossing the border? Assume yes.
( Please stop assassinating Politicians and leaving your DNA behind nyahnyah.gif)
Did you still take a guarded border crossing? Assume yes.
(there is a smuggler archetype in the BBB, she knows the smuggling routes, give her a call)

If the warrant and DNA check is already out, the exit guards ask you to "Step out of the vehicle...".

If you got past the first guards, then it gets complicated. Did the NAN tell the UCAS? Did the UCAS care? Did your decker intercept the packet and replace the DNA with Dunklezahns(he has a sense of humor)?

Most of the time I only see SIN checks for when you get harassed by cops on the street. Its their job to harass people, especially in A and B areas. Characters with Criminal SIN, well they better have a real good reason to be anywhere. And when they take Mass Transit and enter the ball park. That kind of stuff. If your relying on a Fake SIN to help you get out of a crime, its already too late.

As for DNA evidence, or any part of CSI :: Shadowrun, I leave that to the dice rolls. The players cannot possibly be expected to spend hours describing all of their actions to confuse or hide DNA, and other mundane traces. My assumption is that the characters know more about the types evidence in 2070 and how not to leave them.
Cthulhudreams
Well, it doesn't have to be a DNA check at the border. It might just be a thumb print or a retinal scan, but either one would have had to be linked to your 'real' details. We get thumb prints today, and people are looking at more advanced scans.

But yeah, I see the fundamental gap between our approaches. The way I read the core rules suggests that the runners should be able to get through the border just fine by presenting their second SIN and taking no other special precautions. I see that we both agree that this doesn't make much sense, I'm just looking for a way to enable that to happen.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Mar 26 2008, 04:02 PM) *
Well, it doesn't have to be a DNA check at the border. It might just be a thumb print or a retinal scan, but either one would have had to be linked to your 'real' details. We get thumb prints today, and people are looking at more advanced scans.

But yeah, I see the fundamental gap between our approaches. The way I read the core rules suggests that the runners should be able to get through the border just fine by presenting their second SIN and taking no other special precautions. I see that we both agree that this doesn't make much sense, I'm just looking for a way to enable that to happen.


Mister Dreams,
I bow to you. You beat me to posting it. According to the rules, all this talk about retinal scans, DNA, and so on is pointless. You just roll against the rating. And if it fails, they ask you questions. Thats right, it says questions not scans. *sigh of relief* That's some good rules. *takes another hit of good simple rules*

My example statement, scanning everyone, was to see how important the murder target was to the country. I think the book example assumes SNAFU. If the Head of the country was just assassinated, protocols change. I shouldn't have made an extreme example. Very poor of me.

Damn, I have to finish the work day high on rules
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Mar 26 2008, 11:49 AM) *
Uh, wait, why are we acting as if a rating 6 Fake SIN is foolproof or as if it would somehow entitle you to getting more assets? The more assets the fake identity is supposed to have the harder it would be for the SIN to stand up to real scrutiny as you add on more and more points of failure and things that can be verified, which is rather self defeating, wouldn't you say?


We're not -- I'm interested in finding out what sort of scrutiny such a fake would stand up to, and if the sort of background checking that, say, a subsidiary of a mega hiring a contractor or employee would do is more or less thorough than a bank would be in loaning out 40,000 or 150,000 nuyen.gif .

The point being, it shouldn't be more lucrative to buy fake IDs, borrow money, and then discard the ID than it is to do actual shadowruns (just like how it shouldn't be a better option to steal some schmo's car once a week). But at the same time, fake ID has to be pretty believable. It's a bit of a conundrum, really.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 26 2008, 10:20 PM) *
We're not -- I'm interested in finding out what sort of scrutiny such a fake would stand up to, and if the sort of background checking that, say, a subsidiary of a mega hiring a contractor or employee would do is more or less thorough than a bank would be in loaning out 40,000 or 150,000 nuyen.gif .

The point being, it shouldn't be more lucrative to buy fake IDs, borrow money, and then discard the ID than it is to do actual shadowruns (just like how it shouldn't be a better option to steal some schmo's car once a week). But at the same time, fake ID has to be pretty believable. It's a bit of a conundrum, really.


If you're running the game, then allow the players to do it once or twice... then drop the Hammer of Doom ™ on their foreheads. The banks are a POWERFUL group (even in the modern day) and they don't like getting ripped off.
nathanross
As I've been contemplating this issue, it came to me:

Fake SINs are for Chumps! Pros leave no trace, not even a fake one.

Seriously though, with the storage and computation available in 2070, you need a novahot decker on Fastjack's level to really cover up problems brought about by your Fake SIN. There are ways to vary Face, Voice, Retina, and Fingerprint, but as far as I know no way to fake a DNA test. I guess if you want to tie a fake SIN to a FAKE version of the rest, go for it. But I do not buy that it is possible to constantly make new fake SINs with the same biometrics. Unless you are a novahot decker with many years under the belt, I wouldn't even try.
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